Vibrant gone terribly wrong

[jjflounder1]

I had used Vibrant and it caused a huge ammonia Spike. Killing all my fish in under 2hrs.
( My daughter's thread as it was happening https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-vibrant-for-reef-aquariums.668454/)

After weeks and lab testing Jeff over at UWC has not been able to tell me why this might have happened.

My question was if anybody on the form might know how and why this could happen?
My only guess would be that the bacteria was dead. In a tank responded like it should to any dead organism.

 

[Alexreefer]

Sorry for your loss Hope someone can help you understand this. Vibrant is a hit and miss, Sometimes it works and others it doesnt

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I'm sorry to hear that. Something obviously is not right. Wish I could help more. I tend to use nutrient control to keep my nuisance algae in check, so I'm afraid I'm not much help.

 

[Mical]

The only affects I've ever seen w/Vibrant is if used too heavily it will kill chaeto in sump.

 

[Silent]

Seems unlikely vibrant would be the culprit. I could dose 1ml per 10g of ammonia to my tank and it not kill everything like that.

 

[Entomophage]

I think the post by @Brew12 in your daughter's thread nailed it.

It looks like there was a fair amount of algae in the tank before dosing which was carrying a non-trivial amount of the bio-load in terms of nutrient and maybe ammonia uptake. When it died rapidly from the Vibrant your tank had to metabolize the die-off from the algae itself while having a weak bio-filter due to nitrifying bacteria populations being reduced/dormant since they had been competing with the algae for food for so long.

 

[King Turkey]

if you are unsure of it.. you can use dr tims waste away. essentially the same thing but more popular and widely used. I have used both and dr tims seems to work not only better for me but have never seen a bad reaction.

 

[taricha]

None of the known ingredients of vibrant dosed anywhere near recommended levels are capable of producing a dangerous ammonia spike or oxygen drop in that time scale (under 2hrs). The mass of everything in that dose is so tiny, even if it were all dead and decomposing it would not produce what you saw.
My honest guess is that either something other than the product everyone else uses was in the bottle (unlikely) or there was already a tank crash in progress and you observed it when vibrant was added.

 

[King Turkey]

Yeah I just dobt see it being the product either. A real head scratcher. What peramiters in tank currently. How old the tank? Method of nutrent export? Do you run skimmer? Good water flow for oxygen? What do you dose?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had used Vibrant and it caused a huge ammonia Spike. Killing all my fish in under 2hrs.
( My daughter's thread as it was happening https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-vibrant-for-reef-aquariums.668454/)

After weeks and lab testing Jeff over at UWC has not been able to tell me why this might have happened.

My question was if anybody on the form might know how and why this could happen?
My only guess would be that the bacteria was dead. In a tank responded like it should to any dead organism.

Could happen if the bottle of bacteria was killed somehow, and the bottle had high ammonia in it.

Could happen if the vibrant killed something in the tank and it caused an ammonia spike.

Could be entirely coincidence.

 

[Dan_P]

None of the known ingredients of vibrant dosed anywhere near recommended levels are capable of producing a dangerous ammonia spike or oxygen drop in that time scale (under 2hrs). The mass of everything in that dose is so tiny, even if it were all dead and decomposing it would not produce what you saw.
My honest guess is that either something other than the product everyone else uses was in the bottle (unlikely) or there was already a tank crash in progress and you observed it when vibrant was added.

Do we know that Vibrant bacteria in the bottle are alive?

 

[X-37B]

Sorry for the loss. I have used it many times in my 25 nano and my 120. In my 120 I started with a less than half dose at 5ml. Then went to 10ml with no issues. From everything I have read on it my guess is something other than bacteria was in the bottle. Not sure how but to me its the only thing that makes sense.

 

[taricha]

Do we know that Vibrant bacteria in the bottle are alive?

I know that it's much less dense in bacteria-like wiggling particles than some other bottled bacteria products.
Are the wiggles alive? *shrug*

 

[jjflounder1]

Thank you for all the good insight. Maybe a combination of of things.
I have permanently remove the sand, bleached washed and I am re curring the rock now. I have learned that even what seams to be totally safe to put in my tank should be tested SLOWLY.

One more lesson from the School of hard knocks.
Hopefully I will do better next time. And not have to reach cure in a can ..

 

[edindubai]

I had a disaster with Vibrant yesterday.

I dosed this to my 400l fish only (and 1 anenome) marine tank, the fish were good and healthy which I've had for about 7 years - but nearly all were dead only few hrs after (so far a powder brown tang, a toby, a cleaner wrasse, a bicolor angel, a blennie, a blue cheek trigger, a red tooth trigger and a large banner fish, only 2 clownfish the anenome remain the next day.

Here is my experience and conclusion:

I had some light rust colored powder to slimey growth on the glass and substrate which appeared some weeks after using Monster 460 to get rid of some green algae and a bit of red slime. Nutrients were practically zero after using that but I read that is when dinoflagellates - these rust brown creatures thrive. They have been in the tank about 4 months and could grow back on the glass in hrs, there was no green algae or red slime just this, so I was looking for a solution and Vibrant was apparently one to try.

After dosing the tank the fish seemed lethargic an hr in, I went out for lunch and on return saw the cleaner wrasse with new black marks on it's facial skin gasping on the bottom, the bicolor on its side with what looked like bruises under each eye and the dead blennie which had also gone black. The tang was breathing rapidly but still swimming, the triggers and toby had locked themselves into gaps in the rock. I pumped up the surface flow and aeration to the point there was no doubt water was getting oxygenated rapidly. I moved the cleaner wrasse, bicolor and tang into clean mix sea water buckets and tested the tank for ammonia (I had read the above thread in a panic search where they thought it was an ammonia spike or dead bacteria in the bottle) my ammonia test showed zero. The affected fish both in the tank and in the clean mix seemed to develop thrusting jerky body movements and spasms, slamming into rocks or the bucket wall but gradually their bodies went rigid while still alive, seemingly unable to move certain muscles. It seemed to start at the tail then freeze up the body until only pectoral fins could move, then various spasms in those and the whole body would look stiff as a board except the gills, which would finally stop suddenly. Each fish had the same thing and those in the new water were not any better than those in the tank.

To me it looked like some sort of neuro toxin was paralysing these fish and wondered what on earth it could be and what was in the bottle of Vibrant or reacting with it. I added carbon to the sump just in case.

Now I remember from studing oceanography at uni long ago dinoflagellates are behind mass fish deaths in red tides and eating red tide fish can mess with humans' nerve systems. A quick search more into 'dinotoxins' and yes they produce paralysis toxins. I believe there are about 2000 species of dinos and many produce these various neuro toxins that cause paralysis. The tank, apart from all the dead fish was looking more 'vibrant' the dinos were not growing. So did Vibrant kill my expensive beloved fish? Vibrant evidently attacked the dinos and I'm concluding by closely watching the fish and ruling out ammonia that they died from a paralysing neuro toxin. This toxin must have been in my species of dino and Vibrant released it from them rapidly which in turn paralysed and killed my fish extremely quickly. My clown fish pair both are doing fine but they have toxin resilience to things like paralysing anenome stings so that probably explains why they are the only survivors.

Please be careful with this product if you have dinos I have lost a lot of emotional attachment and money today and wished I had never tried it. But it was a secondary toxin release that killed my fish not Vibrant itself.

Dinotoxins are extremely dangerous, one type saxitoxins for example are Schedule 1 prohibited chemical weapons, good summary of dinotoxins here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525493/ It was evident that whatever species of dino I had that the toxin was inteferring with the sodium pathways in the dying fish causing their jerky behaviour and

paralysis, a very sad day but hope others find this useful.

 

[Dan_P]

I had a disaster with Vibrant yesterday.

I dosed this to my 400l fish only (and 1 anenome) marine tank, the fish were good and healthy which I've had for about 7 years - but nearly all were dead only few hrs after (so far a powder brown tang, a toby, a cleaner wrasse, a bicolor angel, a blennie, a blue cheek trigger, a red tooth trigger and a large banner fish, only 2 clownfish the anenome remain the next day.

Here is my experience and conclusion:

I had some light rust colored powder to slimey growth on the glass and substrate which appeared some weeks after using Monster 460 to get rid of some green algae and a bit of red slime. Nutrients were practically zero after using that but I read that is when dinoflagellates - these rust brown creatures thrive. They have been in the tank about 4 months and could grow back on the glass in hrs, there was no green algae or red slime just this, so I was looking for a solution and Vibrant was apparently one to try.

After dosing the tank the fish seemed lethargic an hr in, I went out for lunch and on return saw the cleaner wrasse with new black marks on it's facial skin gasping on the bottom, the bicolor on its side with what looked like bruises under each eye and the dead blennie which had also gone black. The tang was breathing rapidly but still swimming, the triggers and toby had locked themselves into gaps in the rock. I pumped up the surface flow and aeration to the point there was no doubt water was getting oxygenated rapidly. I moved the cleaner wrasse, bicolor and tang into clean mix sea water buckets and tested the tank for ammonia (I had read the above thread in a panic search where they thought it was an ammonia spike or dead bacteria in the bottle) my ammonia test showed zero. The affected fish both in the tank and in the clean mix seemed to develop thrusting jerky body movements and spasms, slamming into rocks or the bucket wall but gradually their bodies went rigid while still alive, seemingly unable to move certain muscles. It seemed to start at the tail then freeze up the body until only pectoral fins could move, then various spasms in those and the whole body would look stiff as a board except the gills, which would finally stop suddenly. Each fish had the same thing and those in the new water were not any better than those in the tank.

To me it looked like some sort of neuro toxin was paralysing these fish and wondered what on earth it could be and what was in the bottle of Vibrant or reacting with it. I added carbon to the sump just in case.

Now I remember from studing oceanography at uni long ago dinoflagellates are behind mass fish deaths in red tides and eating red tide fish can mess with humans' nerve systems. A quick search more into 'dinotoxins' and yes they produce paralysis toxins. I believe there are about 2000 species of dinos and many produce these various neuro toxins that cause paralysis. The tank, apart from all the dead fish was looking more 'vibrant' the dinos were not growing. So did Vibrant kill my expensive beloved fish? Vibrant evidently attacked the dinos and I'm concluding by closely watching the fish and ruling out ammonia that they died from a paralysing neuro toxin. This toxin must have been in my species of dino and Vibrant released it from them rapidly which in turn paralysed and killed my fish extremely quickly. My clown fish pair both are doing fine but they have toxin resilience to things like paralysing anenome stings so that probably explains why they are the only survivors.

Please be careful with this product if you have dinos I have lost a lot of emotional attachment and money today and wished I had never tried it. But it was a secondary toxin release that killed my fish not Vibrant itself.

Dinotoxins are extremely dangerous, one type saxitoxins for example are Schedule 1 prohibited chemical weapons, good summary of dinotoxins here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525493/ It was evident that whatever species of dino I had that the toxin was inteferring with the sodium pathways in the dying fish causing their jerky behaviour and

paralysis, a very sad day but hope others find this useful.

Very sorry for your loss.

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

dang. Sorry to hear. I tried that stuff when it came out and it definitely ticked off some corals but worked in small doses to get rid of algae. It has been suggested that these are strong sewer cleaning bacteria elsewhere that’ll have a large effect on your tank biome. Had cyano/dinos shortly after discontinuing use and now seek out mostly natural methods (cuc/tangs) of dealing with algae etc, although now I’m dealing mostly with low nutrients. Don’t give up, hang in there and start anew! Stay away from from as many of these bs miracle fixes as possible. Good luck

 

[Karen00]

I had a disaster with Vibrant yesterday.

I dosed this to my 400l fish only (and 1 anenome) marine tank, the fish were good and healthy which I've had for about 7 years - but nearly all were dead only few hrs after (so far a powder brown tang, a toby, a cleaner wrasse, a bicolor angel, a blennie, a blue cheek trigger, a red tooth trigger and a large banner fish, only 2 clownfish the anenome remain the next day.

Here is my experience and conclusion:

I had some light rust colored powder to slimey growth on the glass and substrate which appeared some weeks after using Monster 460 to get rid of some green algae and a bit of red slime. Nutrients were practically zero after using that but I read that is when dinoflagellates - these rust brown creatures thrive. They have been in the tank about 4 months and could grow back on the glass in hrs, there was no green algae or red slime just this, so I was looking for a solution and Vibrant was apparently one to try.

After dosing the tank the fish seemed lethargic an hr in, I went out for lunch and on return saw the cleaner wrasse with new black marks on it's facial skin gasping on the bottom, the bicolor on its side with what looked like bruises under each eye and the dead blennie which had also gone black. The tang was breathing rapidly but still swimming, the triggers and toby had locked themselves into gaps in the rock. I pumped up the surface flow and aeration to the point there was no doubt water was getting oxygenated rapidly. I moved the cleaner wrasse, bicolor and tang into clean mix sea water buckets and tested the tank for ammonia (I had read the above thread in a panic search where they thought it was an ammonia spike or dead bacteria in the bottle) my ammonia test showed zero. The affected fish both in the tank and in the clean mix seemed to develop thrusting jerky body movements and spasms, slamming into rocks or the bucket wall but gradually their bodies went rigid while still alive, seemingly unable to move certain muscles. It seemed to start at the tail then freeze up the body until only pectoral fins could move, then various spasms in those and the whole body would look stiff as a board except the gills, which would finally stop suddenly. Each fish had the same thing and those in the new water were not any better than those in the tank.

To me it looked like some sort of neuro toxin was paralysing these fish and wondered what on earth it could be and what was in the bottle of Vibrant or reacting with it. I added carbon to the sump just in case.

Now I remember from studing oceanography at uni long ago dinoflagellates are behind mass fish deaths in red tides and eating red tide fish can mess with humans' nerve systems. A quick search more into 'dinotoxins' and yes they produce paralysis toxins. I believe there are about 2000 species of dinos and many produce these various neuro toxins that cause paralysis. The tank, apart from all the dead fish was looking more 'vibrant' the dinos were not growing. So did Vibrant kill my expensive beloved fish? Vibrant evidently attacked the dinos and I'm concluding by closely watching the fish and ruling out ammonia that they died from a paralysing neuro toxin. This toxin must have been in my species of dino and Vibrant released it from them rapidly which in turn paralysed and killed my fish extremely quickly. My clown fish pair both are doing fine but they have toxin resilience to things like paralysing anenome stings so that probably explains why they are the only survivors.

Please be careful with this product if you have dinos I have lost a lot of emotional attachment and money today and wished I had never tried it. But it was a secondary toxin release that killed my fish not Vibrant itself.

Dinotoxins are extremely dangerous, one type saxitoxins for example are Schedule 1 prohibited chemical weapons, good summary of dinotoxins here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525493/ It was evident that whatever species of dino I had that the toxin was inteferring with the sodium pathways in the dying fish causing their jerky behaviour and

paralysis, a very sad day but hope others find this useful.

OMG. I am so sorry for your loss! This is heartbreaking! I think your observations and conclusions are insightful and might provide answers for some folks that experienced the same fallout as you.

 

[outhouse]

Vibrant probably not good for a new tank that has no extra bio capacity. Tank above so sterile looking I'm guessing his previous dosing put the tank close to the edge. Always Always do major water changes after medication

 

[Scorpius]

Never had any issue using Vibrant even when I was dosing 2x weekly. Still use it to this day.