Water changes, a thing of the past or necessity of the present?

[FarmerTy]

Remember that ORP isn't a 100% verified measure of water purity. Some aquarists use it that way and others don't even monitor ORP. I monitor it because I use ozone and an ORP controller is the safest way to do so. However, I've personally noticed that ORP levels are indicative to how my corals appear. Usually when my ORP is up above 300-350 mv - the corals appear great and are extended and beautiful. If it drops down closer to 250 some are closed up, etc. That is entirely anecdotal and could be totally unrelated, but it's a personal observation I've made over the years. When I worked in public aquaria ozone was commonly used on a wide scale, both to maintain water quality in large displays and to sterilize water during a mass filtration-cleaning period. In this case, ORP was run up to 600+ mv then given time to off-gas before being used. The goal was to kill any potential parasites within the water.

Thanks for the tips. I'm looking forward to some of my own observations as well in correlation to ORP level.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you design an aquarium, with the biological filtration more than capable of handling your fish load - then you don't have anything that needs exporting (in my opinion). If you take it to the next step and build a reef aquarium, with biological filtration capable of handling your fish load and providing the sustenance for your fish, and you replenish what the corals are consuming.... Then what is left to export?

I'm all for aquarium gadgets, but at the root of the reef - is biology.

Dave B

What is left? Loads of chemicals that may be easiest to deal with by water change.

Organics, especially those not skimmable or able to bind to GAC. Some of these may be toxins.

Heavy metals (copper, etc.)

Light metals (aluminum, etc.).

Restoring the sulfate to chloride balance that may be messed up by calcium dosing.

Restoring the sodium to magnesium/calcium/potassium ratio that may get messed up by dosing alk supplements.

IMO, the potential benefits of water changes are most obvious for these, not nutrients such as nitrate or phosphate.

 

[crowndroyal]

I have a question,

Since the marine aspect of the hobby is a little more complicated and was thought to need more care etc, what does this article do and mean for a freshwater community ?
Can these aspects be taken and used there ?

I myself have had setups similar to marine setups and have seen my need for water changes decline , but it seems there is a major flaw in stating that water changes are almost never done and that I am doing things wrong and hurting my fish etc , and that water changes are a must.

Now I am not all that scientific etc and can not write an article to back up my claims but if there is anyone out there that can this would be great.

I have always been an advocate of taking things from the marine world and using them in freshwater hobby and getting criticized for it saying it is not needed or has no benefit while I know my tanks are better off them most people who do all these laborious tasks week after week while I actually sit back and enjoy my tanks after performing little to no work, and when that work is performed it is very effortless.

@Randy Holmes-Farley would that not be why you test for TDS ? ( Total Dissolved Solids )

and wouldn't that be the purpose of pre-treating your water that goes into the tank via a drip system ? and then flushed out via the pump ?
I do not think the article said anything about eliminating water changes forever just eliminating the frequency as there is technology now available that can monitor and calibrate most of all these for you.
On top of this you do manual testing for what your post mentioned to keep that in check.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley would that not be why you test for TDS ? ( Total Dissolved Solids )

and wouldn't that be the purpose of pre-treating your water that goes into the tank via a drip system ? and then flushed out via the pump ?
I do not think the article said anything about eliminating water changes forever just eliminating the frequency as there is technology now available that can monitor and calibrate most of all these for you.
On top of this you do manual testing for what your post mentioned to keep that in check.

Not sure what you mean by testing for TDS. It is not a useful test in seawater, only for the purity of fresh water. But the things I mentioned are all issues even when using pure fresh water for top off. None of the things I mentioned need to come from top off water to be present.

And few people can adequately test for any of the things I mentioned, short of expensive Triton sorts of tests.

 

[crowndroyal]

There are pretty inexpensive tests , to test for certain heavy metals besides the expensive Triton tests sure the initial investment is costly but you save money in the long run. ( when I mention inexpensive I mean in a rather general way of comparing to what one would spend on equipment etc. )

So you are saying the test kits with strips can not detect metals with in a certain standard and they are "snake oil" ?


carbon does not remove metals ?
chelating does not help dissolve and render the metals non poisonous ?

I have no idea about reefs I am a freshwater person which is why I am here asking about this article, All I know is this article is basically stating that the need for those 50%+ weekly water changes like most did in the past is not needed and can be cut down as long as your responsible enough to monitor and replenish when needed. I never read anything about never do a water change again but I am most certainly interested in changing the frequency of water changes as this article stated.

feel free to help explain to a freshwater person what can be done if this is not plausible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not believe there are any inexpensive but accurate tests that can detect the metals, sulfate, organics, or chloride that I refer to above.

There are zero kits that can detect the natural levels of ANY heavy metals in seawater. Same for most light metals that are a concern (e.g. aluminum).

 

[crowndroyal]

I do not believe there are any inexpensive but accurate tests that can detect the metals, sulfate, organics, or chloride that I refer to above.

There are zero kits that can detect the natural levels of ANY heavy metals in seawater. Same for most light metals that are a concern (e.g. aluminum).

So this does not work ? http://www.sensafe.com/test-strips/sensafe-metals-check-bottle-of-50-tests/

Now I know it will not give you the answer of what metal your testing positive for but it will give you a general idea that something is there in high concentrations also API does offer a copper and magnesium test kit

I also did not see you mention anything recently about sulfate, organics, or chloride above perhaps on a different page prior to our conversation ?

Still leaves the questions unanswered that I asked , you seem to only want to stick to the subject of testing for metals and things your adding to the conversation that were not mentioned, I do know there is a kit out there for 200 bucks that will test for certain metals up to a certain PPM not sure if it works on salt water but I cant see why it wouldn't it would give an accurate enough of a reading to let you know that levels are getting out of hand and should be dealt with.

but does this not all come down to yet again the fact that there are filters that can help remove metals from your aquarium as well as chemicals to help neutralize them and render them non poisonous ?

which also makes the argument kinda moot as you would think someone who spent the time and money to set up a less frequent water changing system would ahve taken the steps nessacry to reduce the metal traces and effects as well. ( just my thoughts )

Still wondering if anyone here is willing to answer my original questions.

 

[Mr tap water]

No water changes is growing in popularity among SPS keepers and there are a few methods and systems that appeal to that. The Triton System states that water changes are actually a poor way to keep reef organisms largely because of instability concerns. To a degree it makes sense, as there aren't "water changes" in the ocean, where ocean levels drop by 30% and are replenished with all new ocean water of the same temperature and density. However the natural action of currents, the water cycle, etc does greatly impact the ocean's ability to maintain stable, clean and balanced water chemistry. I won't go as far as Triton is suggesting water changes are harmful and don't necessarily agree with that suggestion. I will say water changes are something that should be tailored to each individual tank and not subscribed on a "one time per week, per two week, etc" basis. Monitoring, observation and testing can help aquarists understand when their system's water needs changed, and how much change it responds well too.

One thing that is worth mentioning is the effect water changes have on ORP. There is extensive argument as to whether ORP can be considered a measure of water purity. The overall consensus is that just because water has a high ORP, doesn't necessarily mean it's of any greater purity (reef organism wise) than water that has a low ORP. However, it's commonly suggested that water with an ORP below 200 mv is waste laden and over 300 mv is oxidizing nutrient/waste build-up. I run ozone on my tank, so I monitor ORP 24/7 and the tank has an average ORP according to my Apex of 347.7 mv. The controller is programmed to kick off the ozone and the air pump that circulates it at 375 mv ORP. When I conduct a water change, my ORP drops from anywhere to 300-280 mv. By that measure, the new water is actually having an adverse effect when compared to the tank's existing water. My assumption has been that the water change water hasn't been treated with ozone and therefore has more elements within it, thus registering a lower ORP value. However, I closely monitor a whole range of values on my tank (about every value crucial to a reef system) every other day, and via dosing they stay in check. It's made me wonder if some salt mixes aren't adding things to the water that really aren't needed - or elements that may not have much of a value to our reefs. I would think that we would want our marine water to have the correct concentration of everything reef organisms need to grow and thrive, but nothing else. So if you have water with an ORP of 347.7 full of all the elements reef organisms need and you replace it with freshly made marine water that is nutrient/solid waste free, you would assume the ORP would either be lower or the same as the tank water. This is totally an anecdotal observation on my part, and as I mentioned there is debate as to whether ORP is in any way a measure of water quality/purity for reef aquarium purposes. For the record, I don't dose ozone with the hope of improving water quality but simply to clarify the water.

Hi there
The bit about there isn't water charges in the ocean,

what about The rain water I would've thought that it would've put some elements back into the Ocean and revitalises it to a degree ?

 

[CarrieB]

Hi there
The bit about there isn't water charges in the ocean,

what about The rain water I would've thought that it would've put some elements back into the Ocean and revitalises it to a degree ?

Rain water just replaces the freshwater that has evaporated. It's analogous to the top-off water you add to your tank to keep the salinity stable. That process neither removes waste nor (as far as I know) adds minerals. It's just H2O.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So this does not work ? http://www.sensafe.com/test-strips/sensafe-metals-check-bottle-of-50-tests/

Now I know it will not give you the answer of what metal your testing positive for but it will give you a general idea that something is there in high concentrations also API does offer a copper and magnesium test kit

I also did not see you mention anything recently about sulfate, organics, or chloride above perhaps on a different page prior to our conversation ?

Still leaves the questions unanswered that I asked , you seem to only want to stick to the subject of testing for metals and things your adding to the conversation that were not mentioned, I do know there is a kit out there for 200 bucks that will test for certain metals up to a certain PPM not sure if it works on salt water but I cant see why it wouldn't it would give an accurate enough of a reading to let you know that levels are getting out of hand and should be dealt with.

but does this not all come down to yet again the fact that there are filters that can help remove metals from your aquarium as well as chemicals to help neutralize them and render them non poisonous ?

which also makes the argument kinda moot as you would think someone who spent the time and money to set up a less frequent water changing system would ahve taken the steps nessacry to reduce the metal traces and effects as well. ( just my thoughts )

Still wondering if anyone here is willing to answer my original questions.

I stand by my comment that there is no DIY test that is useful for heavy metals in a reef tank.

Magnesium is not a heavy metal. Obviously there are kits for magnesium.

Copper kits cannot detect NSW levels of copper, only the high levels used for medication.

I would not assume the strips you posted even work in seawater.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Still wondering if anyone here is willing to answer my original questions.

What question remains unanswered?

 

[stevieduk]

I stand by my comment that there is no DIY test that is useful for heavy metals in a reef tank.

Magnesium is not a heavy metal. Obviously there are kits for magnesium.

Copper kits cannot detect NSW levels of copper, only the high levels used for medication.

I would not assume the strips you posted even work in seawater.

Oh I do wish people would not abbreviate in posts and replies , ORP , API, NSW. not everyone automatically knows what they mean

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh I do wish people would not abbreviate in posts and replies , ORP , API, NSW. not everyone automatically knows what they mean

Sorry, I have written several hundred thousand posts, and abbreviations are a way to accomplish that while maintaining finger functionality. Most Reef2Reef people quickly pick them up.

NSW means natural seawater.

ORP is oxidation reduction potential.

 

[Brew12]

Oh I do wish people would not abbreviate in posts and replies , ORP , API, NSW. not everyone automatically knows what they mean

reef2reef.com/threads/lingo-commonly-used-acronyms-0.57652

This is your friend!

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

Loved the article. Many thanks for taking the time to write it up. I'm about to start using local ocean water and might consider prepping it by adding UV filtration. Any and all comments welcome.

 

[Sunny Goold]

Amazing article - as I am setting up my first reef tank this has made me rethink a few things. As I'm on a budget I wanted to only do water changes when necessary. After reading this I think I probably should oversize my skimmer (I didn't understand the sizing before) and will probably incorporate a small (say 5%) weekly water change schedule where I also inspect and clean my equipment. It's is going to take me a long time to get to a full bio load so I'm not sure how necessary water changes will be but after reading this they can't hurt and it is probably an inexpensive way to give the tank a little bit more margin for error. Thanks Jeremy!

 

[Sunny Goold]

I will offer an opposing view of nitrates, but mainly biased towards SPS-dominant tanks. You'll need around 5-8 ppm of nitrates to keep a nice healthy color for your SPS. Anything below that and they look faded and not as vibrant.

For no water changes, I did that for 3 years with my old 125-gallon and for my current 215-gallon, I've run 2 years now without water changes (with the exception that I overdosed Mg a couple months back and had to do some water changes to get it back to a normal level).

Similar setup as described in the article, GFO for phosphates, very large skimmer... I run a CaRX for foundation elements and also trace elements and instead of sulfur, I run biopellets for nitrates.

I say over the 5 cumulative years of no water changes on SPS-dominant tanks, I've keyed on in my personal opinion that the calcium reactor is the centerpiece for allowing this to work with my setup. Besides maintaining the foundation parameters of Ca, alk, and Mg, it also supplies strontium, potassium, and probably a slew of other elements in trace form.

Here's my tank that runs without water changes:

Stunning tank Ty - I love the Emperor! - I'd love to eventually get one but I also love LPS corals and I'd worry the two wouldn't mix. The corals look amazing and I love the fish you have. Well done

 

[najer]

Amazing article - as I am setting up my first reef tank this has made me rethink a few things. As I'm on a budget I wanted to only do water changes when necessary. After reading this I think I probably should oversize my skimmer (I didn't understand the sizing before) and will probably incorporate a small (say 5%) weekly water change schedule where I also inspect and clean my equipment. It's is going to take me a long time to get to a full bio load so I'm not sure how necessary water changes will be but after reading this they can't hurt and it is probably an inexpensive way to give the tank a little bit more margin for error. Thanks Jeremy!

There are simpler ways to run a tank, oversize skimmer, don't go too big and a refugium works!