Sabellafella
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It sure can promote precipitation if not poured in gradually =)
WATER PERFECT, THEN OVERNIGHT/DAY IT BECOMES CLOUDY??
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nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
I really don't think it's a bacterial/algal cloud... sodium carbonate, or soda ash, doesn't have any bacteria and doesn't have anything that promotes bacterial/algal clouds. It is chemical only IMO, and most likely caused by precipitation.
What's your calcium and magnesium levels? Have you dosed strontium? It looks just like calcium to a carbonate ion...
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JCSReefing
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How can I treat it? Will it just kill everything? Anything that can be done?
Brew12
Electrical Gru
My first thought when I saw this was also that it is bacterial. I don't think it is, at least not most of it. If this was a bacteria bloom you would have the slime in the filter socks that are in use, not on one you forgot in your sump.
I think this is exactly what is happening. Especially if you saw a pH spike when you did the add.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/#6
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JCSReefing
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Will this fix on its own or is there something I need/can do?
Brew12
Electrical Gru
If it is a chemical precipitation there isn't much you can do. It should clear up on its own over time. I'm not 100% convinced that it is. Most precipitates will clear up fairly quickly. Others will plate out on pumps or your glass. The ones that are longer lasting also seem to be much harder to form with Magnesium Hydroxide being the one that matches best. You would have needed to add the solution to a very low flow area in your system for that to have formed.
Bacteria formation should be showing up as slime in your filter socks and you don't seem to have that occurring.
It could be that the chemical addition did cause an algae bloom but even that should clear up on its own in a reasonable amount of time once the cause is eliminated.
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JCSReefing
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If it is a chemical precipitation there isn't much you can do. It should clear up on its own over time. I'm not 100% convinced that it is. Most precipitates will clear up fairly quickly. Others will plate out on pumps or your glass. The ones that are longer lasting also seem to be much harder to form with Magnesium Hydroxide being the one that matches best. You would have needed to add the solution to a very low flow area in your system for that to have formed.
Bacteria formation should be showing up as slime in your filter socks and you don't seem to have that occurring.
It could be that the chemical addition did cause an algae bloom but even that should clear up on its own in a reasonable amount of time once the cause is eliminated.
I am currently not running filter socks. Just basically comes from the drain and through my sump and into my return passing through the manifold into the reactor and external skimmer. Should I run filter socks and see what forms?
Truly appreciate everyone's help here!!
nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
Great post Brew! In the section of Randy's article immediately after he speaks about supersaturation of calcium in seawater and our tanks, there is a section titled, "Calcium Carbonate Precipitation: Low Magnesium" and another, "Calcium Carbonate Precipitation: Elevated Temperature". There are three things that "could" occur for calcium carbonate to precipitate:
1. Normal seawater at 80°C (not likely in a tank to get a temp that high)
2. Seawater at 25°C with calcium raised to 1300 ppm (most of our tanks have calcium levels this high, this is a possibility)
3. Seawater at 25°C with the alkalinity raised to 8.2 meq/L (That is an incredibly high level of alkalinity, 23 dKH... But like you said,
, that could have happened in a really slow flowing area of the tank, where the local alk could have been that high and the precipitation would have happened to be slowly released back into the tank looking like overnight cloudiness.
These in combination would cause calcium carbonate precipitation. That's one answer. Another is what you guys have already said, which is in the next section, "Magnesium Hydroxide" and seems likely as well. Quoting from Randy, "Can it form when carbonate salts are added? For example, when sodium carbonate solutions are added as part of a two-part additive system? Theoretically, yes. However, calcium carbonate is kinetically slow to precipitate even when it can do so (a well established fact that is experimentally reproduced in the preceding section), and it is anticipated that the kinetic issues that slow calcium carbonate precipitation (the need to fit ions carefully into a crystalline structure) are similar for magnesium carbonate (but not magnesium hydroxide, which is amorphous) and will slow calcium carbonate precipitation as well."
It seems to me that it is calcium carbonate precipitating slowly, or "kinetically slow to precipitate". There are so many factors going on here that could cause this cloud and it could be both calcium carb and magnesium carb. The article talks about the slow precipitation of both, and that mag carb doesn't come out of solution very easily, but settles out, as you stated @Brew12 ...
Man, this is a strange thing to have happened @jcs401 . I think we all agree that it isn't biological, but chemical, and these ions are super small. If you want to filter them out you would have to get a very small micron filter, in the range of 10 microns. You can purchase 10 micron socks on Amazon (I just did to use for lanthanum chloride to reduce PO4 in a tank of mine). Using regular socks won't capture the small ions.
Turn your skimmer to as wet as you can, put as much filtering material as you can in the sump where water enters and right before the return and see if it helps. I don't think it will help to test alkalinity or calcium levels at this point, since there are ions of calcium and carbonate (and probably magnesium as well) that will just dissolve in the vial. Just wait it out, doing a WC won't help unless you do a 100% WC and that would be more harmful. If it is still cloudy tomorrow then I would take active measures, but doing something now will probably just make it worse... This is all just opinion, I'm not a chemist. I think that you happened to be one of the very rare instances that a precipitation event like this happens, but it did..
:mad:
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I would run socks, preferably the felt kind if you have them.
I would also take a clear glass cup of cloudy tank water out and drop in a tablespoon or two of vinegar. See if that causes a white salt to precipitate out onto the bottom of the glass.
nervousmonkey
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+1
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JCSReefing
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All great GREAT advice. I guess not knowing what it is all I can do is ride it out and see?
In short. When you add a new additive to the aquarium you can experience a chemical reaction that causes a solid to form. this is what is called precipitate. If you are adding say magnesium and then dose calcium at the same time this will happen and you will have a chemical reaction. This causes heat and precipitate. It should clear up depending on tank parms. Please share tank parms and picture.
nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
Technically speaking, magnesium and calcium wouldn't react, but point is well made @mtraylor . Carbonate or bicarbonate ions would react with mag, calc, strontium, etc. to form a precipitate, but since we can't really change it once we do it, , we are stuck with precip when it happens.
, we are stuck with precip when it happens.Keepswiming
Well-Known Member
This has happened to me multiple times, including this last week. In my case, it is one of my snails releasing what I suspect to be his sperm. What type of clean up crew do you have? It is my large snails that do this in my tanks, and it is completely harmless from my experience. Hopefully this is what is happening in your tank!
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/snail-sperm.172763/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/snail-sperm.172763/
happyhourhero
Burner of the Tips
This is what I came in to ask. Do you have any trochus snails?
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JCSReefing
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That I am not sure exactly what I have. I ordered a decent cleanup crew from reef cleaners.org about a month ago but had an assortment of snails.
happyhourhero
Burner of the Tips
Not saying this is your issue but in my tank, these will climb to the water line and in darkness release sperm into the water and they release a lot.
Keepswiming
Well-Known Member
Not saying this is your issue but in my tank, these will climb to the water line and in darkness release sperm into the water and they release a lot.
Exactly my experience only it happened in the day once, enough to not be able to see the other side of the tank.
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