We play nature's game...

[Scott Fellman]

Very nice read. I definitely think there is some beauty to a freshwater tank done right like you mentioned, but I think there is just something about reefing that draws people in. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of freshwater hobbyists that do things right and have incredible tanks, but it always seems people who get into the "aquatic" hobby tend to always start freshwater and "step" their way up towards a reef tank as they get better and better. I think this also may be one of the reasons you see many more freshwater hobbyists who seem to keep their tanks set up more so how they want it and less so how their inhabitants want it.

Thanks for the kids words! Agreed about the FW tank allure... Reef keeping, by virtue of the numerous challenges and importance of supporting and maintaining an environment for a wide variety of organisms, is a continuous challenge- quite alluring for many people! What is interesting to me about freshwater is the amount of "chops" that the reef keeping world could bring to the table- particularly in specialized niche areas like I
m interested in. That being said, I'm in the middle of planning my next reef build, and it's getting kind of exciting! This stuff is addictive!

-Scott

 

[Paul B]

There are so many more freshwater species out now than when I was a kid. When I started salt we only had trilobites.

 

[Maritimer]

Thanks, as always, for sharing your thoughts, Scott & Paul!

Discussions like this are part of why I love reefing - the concept of trying to re-create a natural habitat, rather than just keeping fish in a box. (I'm still terrified of parasites and diseases though...) Anything else ... is just a fishtank.

Scott, it's good to see you here again!

~Bruce

 

[Scott Fellman]

Thanks, as always, for sharing your thoughts, Scott & Paul!

Discussions like this are part of why I love reefing - the concept of trying to re-create a natural habitat, rather than just keeping fish in a box. (I'm still terrified of parasites and diseases though...) Anything else ... is just a fishtank.

Scott, it's good to see you here again!

~Bruce

I understand the concern, Bruce. I personally have never been all THAT concerned about parasites and such in live sand/mud/rock...Probably more afraid of a Mantis Shrimp or big, gnarly Bristleworm, predatory crab, etc. That being said, I think the "Maximum Diversity Microcosom" reef-keeping approach ( the antithesis of the "Let's Collect Lots of Frags" approach) is so interesting (and likely beneficial) that taking the extra time to inspect rock and such for unwanted "guests" makes any potential risks worthwhile. Granted, parasites like flatworms and such are problematic, but the argument could be made that they are always present on reefs, and in the confines of an aquarium, greater attention to natural control (i.e.. Halichoeres Wrasses, etc.) would be an optimal way to more safely manage such a system if this is a concern.

Yeah, my next system will be sand/mud, rock, seagrasses (again!), and either a few soft corals or LPS, or just one ot two "SPS" species, like Pocillopora , Seriatopora, or one type of Acropora... (I had 14,000 gallons of frags at Unique Corals- I'm over seeing tons of frags, lol)...Or I might "migrate" my Mangrove root biotope tank (brackish) to full-strength seawater...Just something fun and really "alive"... mind is whirring...

-Scott

 

[Maritimer]

I'm not as worried about parasites on rock / sand / etc... as I am about the ones that seem to arrive on just about every fish that makes it through the supply chain to my neighborhood.

The next major investment I'd like to make in my tank is a decent sized pile of _real_ liverock. The kind that comes from the ocean covered in sponges and dripping with crustaceans of all sizes. Diversity of life is the primary reason I chose reefing over planted freshwater (which I'd maintained for several years), and I was mightily disappointed in the Pukani "liverock" (wet-rock, is more like it...) that I started with.

Scott, Paul, whoever wants to reply - where do you place the mud in your system? In my 65, I had some of Walt Smith's "Fiji Mud" underneath a cap of sand in each of two refugia (in the 20-L sump, and HOB) - but in the new system, I just don't have room for that kind of refugium space. (40-B under a 220, no HOB as the previous system had...too many jumpers, and I need screen tops.)

~Bruce

P.S. - Scott, that sounds like a really awesome system - ecologically more complete, with big beautiful colonies, not so much of a frag-showroom.

 

[Paul B]

Scott, Paul, whoever wants to reply - where do you place the mud in your system?

I use dolomite gravel in my tank so I can't dump a lot of mud in there. I am more interested in the bacteria the mud contains rather than just the mud which has little, to no benefits than I can think of.
I use "real mud" from the real ocean. I collect it at low tide and just squirt it in around and behind the rocks or I put it in a dish and set it on the bottom for a few days, then remove the dish as I just need the bacteria.
Bacteria is the one key element in most reef tanks that is sorely missing. The lack of bacteria in mud with the lack of live bacteria in food and the fact that many people quarantine for long periods of time spell disaster in a tank. Just my opinion of course.
But we certainly can't have a natural tank without a diversified load of bacteria fro the sea.
If we just rely on the bacteria that comes in on store bought live rock, our tanks are severely limited in what they can do and what they will be immune from and the amounts of animals we can keep healthy.
Store bought live rock will have the same bacteria found in the LFS, wholesaler and canoe where it came from and much of that will be disease bacteria and not the healthful bacteria from the sea.

 

[najer]

What a great thread, I read it twice, hope you don't mind me adding a thought or 3!
Firstly, Bristol England, I will convert to gallons, "newbie", reefer for about 8 years.
I have a great lfs in Bristol with a great manager, when I decided to upgrade from a 43 gallon aio (custom made low into which I built a weir section), Matt helped me design the new tank.
He was the first person to answer the question "Do you think I am mad?", with a no, after a few seconds thought, when shown hand drawn plans!

DSC00623 by sshipuk, on Flickr

The system is about 21 months old, 175 gallons, the top tank is divided in 2 with a 75 G display and 50 G display refugium.
The sump runs a skimmer (added 6 weeks ago due to more fish and more feeding), a refugium and 2 heaters and return pumps.
I did a waterchange at 6 months old, I had massive algae problems at the start until the system and refugium started getting up to speed, the water change, just under 10% was when I siphoned the last of the algae out, before that I was just siphoning into a sock in the sump.

Already long story short, I dose for alk cal and mag manually each day and add Iodine, amino mix and a polyp food each morning before work.

I had to have a "pretty" display but wanted a "system" that was low maintenance (I won't use "natural"!)
I call the tank my Zen twins, that was the plan from the start.

I did get the water tested at 1 year old, seemed ok to me, I will get it tested at the start of October for it's second birthday.
I do test my kh once a month or so.

I know it is still early days and I know the additives for the sps are cheating, I don't do water changes so have to add bits to help.

It would be interesting to hear your honest prognosis for it's longevity!

 

[najer]

Oops, there is a 3 and a half inch swim through hole in the divide for the fish and creatures, each end has it's own drain and return.

 

[Scott Fellman]

I'm not as worried about parasites on rock / sand / etc... as I am about the ones that seem to arrive on just about every fish that makes it through the supply chain to my neighborhood.

The next major investment I'd like to make in my tank is a decent sized pile of _real_ liverock. The kind that comes from the ocean covered in sponges and dripping with crustaceans of all sizes. Diversity of life is the primary reason I chose reefing over planted freshwater (which I'd maintained for several years), and I was mightily disappointed in the Pukani "liverock" (wet-rock, is more like it...) that I started with.

Scott, Paul, whoever wants to reply - where do you place the mud in your system? In my 65, I had some of Walt Smith's "Fiji Mud" underneath a cap of sand in each of two refugia (in the 20-L sump, and HOB) - but in the new system, I just don't have room for that kind of refugium space. (40-B under a 220, no HOB as the previous system had...too many jumpers, and I need screen tops.)

~Bruce

P.S. - Scott, that sounds like a really awesome system - ecologically more complete, with big beautiful colonies, not so much of a frag-showroom.

Ahh, I agree...quarantine is just like mandatory, as you know...

As far as mud products in my systems,. I add them to the substrate "mix" from day one. I like what Paul is saying about sort of "topping off" periodically. Great idea. The Walt Smith "Fiji Mud" is interesting stuff- I've always literally added it directly to the tank and it will clear somewhat quickly. And there are a few commercial products, like Carib Sea "Refugium Mud" and the products from Brightwell, which are pretty good representations of the marine benthic materials. I've even experimented with pond soils and such during my seagrass days and it worked fine, didn't affect the pH to any degree, and when "capped" with aragonite sand, seemed to be fine. Seagrasses grew very well. I mean, the idea of literally adding some to your tank while the pumps are off during a water change, for example, and allowing it to settle is one way- and personally, it doesn't bother me that much, as long as you're not smothering corals. Or you could employ a refugium. The algae reactors that are all the rage right now are super cool, and do a great job, but I never saw a real problem with a dedicated refugium with macro algae doing its thing at nature's pace, rather than forcing growth with intense lighting and such- but it's still a cool idea...I just think that for our purposes, including these materials (mud, macro algae, seagrasses, etc.) in the display would be better. It's nothing new, of course, but decidedly "contrarian" in this "postmodern", equipment- happy era we're in, lol

I think we will have to have a good long discussion here or elsewhere on R2R soon on natural, high-biodiversity reefing!

-Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

I use dolomite gravel in my tank so I can't dump a lot of mud in there. I am more interested in the bacteria the mud contains rather than just the mud which has little, to no benefits than I can think of.
I use "real mud" from the real ocean. I collect it at low tide and just squirt it in around and behind the rocks or I put it in a dish and set it on the bottom for a few days, then remove the dish as I just need the bacteria.
Bacteria is the one key element in most reef tanks that is sorely missing. The lack of bacteria in mud with the lack of live bacteria in food and the fact that many people quarantine for long periods of time spell disaster in a tank. Just my opinion of course.
But we certainly can't have a natural tank without a diversified load of bacteria fro the sea.
If we just rely on the bacteria that comes in on store bought live rock, our tanks are severely limited in what they can do and what they will be immune from and the amounts of animals we can keep healthy.
Store bought live rock will have the same bacteria found in the LFS, wholesaler and canoe where it came from and much of that will be disease bacteria and not the healthful bacteria from the sea.

Paul- I'm going to be playing with mangrove leaf litter in my next reef! It works amazing in brackish, so it's worth a shot in full-strength seawater!

 

[Scott Fellman]

What a great thread, I read it twice, hope you don't mind me adding a thought or 3!
Firstly, Bristol England, I will convert to gallons, "newbie", reefer for about 8 years.
I have a great lfs in Bristol with a great manager, when I decided to upgrade from a 43 gallon aio (custom made low into which I built a weir section), Matt helped me design the new tank.
He was the first person to answer the question "Do you think I am mad?", with a no, after a few seconds thought, when shown hand drawn plans!

DSC00623 by sshipuk, on Flickr

The system is about 21 months old, 175 gallons, the top tank is divided in 2 with a 75 G display and 50 G display refugium.
The sump runs a skimmer (added 6 weeks ago due to more fish and more feeding), a refugium and 2 heaters and return pumps.
I did a waterchange at 6 months old, I had massive algae problems at the start until the system and refugium started getting up to speed, the water change, just under 10% was when I siphoned the last of the algae out, before that I was just siphoning into a sock in the sump.

Already long story short, I dose for alk cal and mag manually each day and add Iodine, amino mix and a polyp food each morning before work.

I had to have a "pretty" display but wanted a "system" that was low maintenance (I won't use "natural"!)
I call the tank my Zen twins, that was the plan from the start.

I did get the water tested at 1 year old, seemed ok to me, I will get it tested at the start of October for it's second birthday.
I do test my kh once a month or so.

I know it is still early days and I know the additives for the sps are cheating, I don't do water changes so have to add bits to help.

It would be interesting to hear your honest prognosis for it's longevity!

I'm in love with this system already. A lot of neat ideas in play! And forget the numbers- just look at how nice everything looks! Stability is awful beautiful, IMHO!

-Scott

 

[Paul B]

Paul- I'm going to be playing with mangrove leaf litter in my next reef! It works amazing in brackish, so it's worth a shot in full-strength seawater!

Sounds interesting. I have 6 or 6 mangrove trees growing in my goldfish pond. They were in my reef tank but my lights are to low and they didn't do well at all. But they are doing surprisingly well in my pond for some silly reason.

 

[Sir Chris]

So like when u jump into a stream with Banyon trees or what ever puts off that blood red water. I can see what u mean and interests me. I've been fresh my whole life and 4 years ago changed so thisnis what I was looking 2 do. My last fresh I couldn't break down for research reasons. I need 2 add water... awesome making the jump

 

[Scott Fellman]

So like when u jump into a stream with Banyon trees or what ever puts off that blood red water. I can see what u mean and interests me. I've been fresh my whole life and 4 years ago changed so thisnis what I was looking 2 do. My last fresh I couldn't break down for research reasons. I need 2 add water... awesome making the jump

Well, you've certainly taken it to the extreme, but I think it's interesting to see what happens over time! The reality is that natural systems seem to find some sort of "direction"...and I think we as reefers tend to worry about having tanks look a certain way, or emphasize specific things...aesthetics, specific corals, etc., rather than worry about the big picture of a small microcosm in our living rooms or whatever!

 

[Maritimer]

I've always literally added it directly to the tank and it will clear somewhat quickly.

Thank you for that tip ... When I switch over the rest of the sand from the 65, perhaps I'll try to blend the mud in. I'm sure it's got some good stuff in it.

~Bruce

 

[Scott Fellman]

Thank you for that tip ... When I switch over the rest of the sand from the 65, perhaps I'll try to blend the mud in. I'm sure it's got some good stuff in it.

~Bruce

Yeah, I Know the idea freaks out a lot of people , but if your real careful, you could use some outhouse fancy techniques that planted aquarium freaks use to add sand to existing setups without causing a mess...

-Scott

 

[Paul B]

I was looking for (and found in abundance) so Royal Grammas, but also found a literal "garden" of all sorts of macrolage (Dictyota, CLadophora, etc., etc.) that would freak any reefer out if they saw their live rock covered in- but it looked so amazing; so natural- I was like, This is material for a new tank!" We need to shift our "mind set" away from clean, sterile-looking systems, and understand that the form and function of the lower life forms we view as "dirty" or whatever- are as beautiful- and worthy- as any of the expensive corals and fishes we love. "Holistic reef keeping" is not a nickname for "sloppiness"- rather, it's a term to describe a mindset as much as an aesthetic...worth considering, I believe!

Scott, I think you are speaking about a rock like this. I took this maybe 5 years ago off a remote Hawaiian Island. Maybe Molokai, I am not sure. Looks natural to me, even has a smiling moray in the center.

 

[Scott Fellman]

Scott, I think you are speaking about a rock like this. I took this maybe 5 years ago off a remote Hawaiian Island. Maybe Molokai, I am not sure. Looks natural to me, even has a smiling moray in the center.

That's pretty darned close! Extra credit for the Moray!