We play nature's game...
- Thread starter Scott Fellman
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I remember so long ago I was always into tannins for FW tanks, I thought it made things look natural and could be exceedingly beautiful. Very, very few people agreed, sadly. It's cool it's coming around. It's a nice feature and IMHO, reefs look great, but may not be able to be very realistic. But with FW we can more easily create a pristine biotope.
There's these little 15 ish minute videos called "Wild Aquarium", they're setup by a nature photographer and I think biologist. He goes to extremely remote area's all over the place, brings a tank, takes you diving to see whats in the water, and creates a biotope of the area using stuff he catches on the spot. It's all released after, and it's a pretty cool little video if you've got 15 minutes to kill.
There's these little 15 ish minute videos called "Wild Aquarium", they're setup by a nature photographer and I think biologist. He goes to extremely remote area's all over the place, brings a tank, takes you diving to see whats in the water, and creates a biotope of the area using stuff he catches on the spot. It's all released after, and it's a pretty cool little video if you've got 15 minutes to kill.
OP
OP
Thanks! I guess I never really went anywhere, lol, but it IS great to see everyone again!
-Scott
OP
OP
Neat idea! I think people are slowly opening up to the concept of more natural FW aquariums...The Amano Style of "Nature Aquarium" has dominated the FW scene for a long time and it's beautiful...but man, after a while, IMHO, one orderly, neatly-scaled "Nature Aquarium" (NOT how nature is, of course!) looks like all the rest...And although it takes talent and creativity to do one in that style, there are so many dogmatic "rules" and such...well, if you know me, you understand I disdain for that kind of stuff! So blackwater and more natural brackish tanks appeal to me...And we'll see more of this in reefing too...pretty certain
Scott
Paul B
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I am so glad you posted this. Most hobbyists want a tank full of beautiful corals with no algae or cyano while hosting a menagerie of interesting fish. That goal may be unobtainable long term in an enclosed tank. I am not talking 5 or 6 years but forever which is a long time. For something to be successful, it should be self replicating forever, because if it is not, it is flawed.
Of course we can keep throwing money and technology at a tank and keep it going, but I don't think that fully captures exactly what we are trying to do. Not me anyway.
A functioning ecosystem is self replicating just like the sea. For an enclosed system to be self sufficient I believe it needs the building blocks of a food chain. A food chain starts with bacteria and goes from there. Bacteria will create bio films which gradually become thicker to where sponges can live. That feeds diatoms and copepods which feed larger amphipods. We often try to artificially keep fish like mandarins in a system that is to clean by buying pods and hope they will be enough to keep such fish. That is not often the case and those fish die.
.
But if we try very hard "not" to keep a tank too clean by vacuuming out every piece of detritus, the pods will reproduce as long as they have a food source.
Of course we still have to feed larger fish as our tanks will never be able to self sustain them
I add pellets to my tank, not for the fish, but for the bacteria, sponges and pods. The beginning of a food chain.
One reason fish in a new tank look so bad and become sick so often is because of a lack of mulm which contains the bacteria that keep our water healthy. It's not test kits and supplements that run our tanks, but bacteria. We are only here to give the bacteria something to make fun of, especially when we wear a Speedo.
Scott, I am so glad you will be experimenting with this stuff as I am getting old and much of my experimenting days are over. I am also hard headed and stubborn. In a few years, hopefully when my tank reaches fifty years old, I may take it down. All things have to end.
A few weeks ago we lost Albert Thiel which I felt very bad about. As you said, this hobby now belongs to the Noobs and I hope they can embrace some of the knowledge that took some of us Old Times many years to collect.
I personally killed more fish than Star Kist Tuna, but I learned something from every one of them.
In a few weeks I am going diving in the Caribbean, I think. The reason I say I think is because I am not 25 any more and carrying tanks with weight belts around is not something I do easily any longer so I leave that to you young studs.
But I am so happy you are thinking deeper than many people because you and me want people to succeed in this fantastic hobby.
We want to solve the problems and keep these beautiful creatures thriving.
Biofilm on the side of my tank. This is the home to pods, brittle stars, worms, sponges etc. If we could see the life in there we would be amazed as to it's diversity and numbers. Many more animals live there than the creatures we can see.
Keep writing Scott, I am still reading and loving it.
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OP
OP
I am so glad you posted this. Most hobbyists want a tank full of beautiful corals with no algae or cyano while hosting a menagerie of interesting fish. That goal may be unobtainable long term in an enclosed tank. I am not talking 5 or 6 years but forever which is a long time. For something to be successful, it should be self replicating forever, because if it is not, it is flawed.
Of course we can keep throwing money and technology at a tank and keep it going, but I don't think that fully captures exactly what we are trying to do. Not me anyway.
A functioning ecosystem is self replicating just like the sea. For an enclosed system to be self sufficient I believe it needs the building blocks of a food chain. A food chain starts with bacteria and goes from there. Bacteria will create bio films which gradually become thicker to where sponges can live. That feeds diatoms and copepods which feed larger amphipods. We often try to artificially keep fish like mandarins in a system that is to clean by buying pods and hope they will be enough to keep such fish. That is not often the case and those fish die.
.
But if we try very hard "not" to keep a tank too clean by vacuuming out every piece of detritus, the pods will reproduce as long as they have a food source.
Of course we still have to feed larger fish as our tanks will never be able to self sustain them
I add pellets to my tank, not for the fish, but for the bacteria, sponges and pods. The beginning of a food chain.
One reason fish in a new tank look so bad and become sick so often is because of a lack of mulm which contains the bacteria that keep our water healthy. It's not test kits and supplements that run our tanks, but bacteria. We are only here to give the bacteria something to make fun of, especially when we wear a Speedo.
Scott, I am so glad you will be experimenting with this stuff as I am getting old and much of my experimenting days are over. I am also hard headed and stubborn. In a few years, hopefully when my tank reaches fifty years old, I may take it down. All things have to end.
A few weeks ago we lost Albert Thiel which I felt very bad about. As you said, this hobby now belongs to the Noobs and I hope they can embrace some of the knowledge that took some of us Old Times many years to collect.
I personally killed more fish than Star Kist Tuna, but I learned something from every one of them.
In a few weeks I am going diving in the Caribbean, I think. The reason I say I think is because I am not 25 any more and carrying tanks with weight belts around is not something I do easily any longer so I leave that to you young studs.
But I am so happy you are thinking deeper than many people because you and me want people to succeed in this fantastic hobby.
We want to solve the problems and keep these beautiful creatures thriving.
Biofilm on the side of my tank. This is the home to pods, brittle stars, worms, sponges etc. If we could see the life in there we would be amazed as to it's diversity and numbers. Many more animals live there than the creatures we can see.
Keep writing Scott, I am still reading and loving it.
Fantastic words and thoughts, Paul. Your reference to the food chain is absolutely fundamental; and I suspect most reefers "get" this, but I think we're caught up in feeding the coral, NOT the entire system. To some extent, this goes back to what Dr. Schimek has been talking about for so long...I see more complete microcosms "coming back into vogue" (kind of makes me ill even using that sort of language, but..). We as community are a stubborn lot. Yet, we can't argue with success. Once some pics and videos of more realistic aquariums that embrace more natural "functional aesthetics" are shared, I think that we'll see more and more hobbyists jumping into keeping systems like this. Biofilm IS beautiful!
I think the interest and talent is definitely there. And as long as an effort is made to understand WHY these ecological systems are the way they are, we'll make some progress. My opinion is that there are thousands of reefers who are beyond the "Check out the latest Limited Edition____!" I think that, much like I learned with my freshwater venture- hobbyists just need to be shown an alternative- to understand it, and to realize that there are so many fascinating, important systems within nature that can and should be embraced.
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ThunderGoose
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Oh, very exciting. I am an aquarist who goes both ways (biaquatic?). One of the things I like about my nano reef is all the little non-fish inhabitants (I went with "wet" rock and sand). I'd love to see freshwater move towards more than just fish in a box.
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I agree. This was my tank years ago before I had any SPS. I think it looked the most natural then just like a quiet lagoon under the sea. Much more natural than it does now, although a lot of people would not like the look of this due to the lack of SPS. I don't know how old that picture is, but it was probably 20 years ago. (I still have that clownfish to the far left)
I incorporated codium seaweed that I collected and as much as I could, added whatever I could collect from the sea.
I also think many aquarists don't keep a tank up long enough for biofilms to develop because to many people don't get the idea of getting their fish immune by a few easy methods so their tank can last more than a few years and so many people clean too much. That's great in your home, but a tank takes years to develop properly and medications and some supplements or water conditioners would short circuit that process
Scrappy RN
I'm your Huckleberry!
Beautiful @Paul B !!
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Well, not exactly. Oh you mean my tank! Thanks.
Not as nice as many tanks on here, but like Scott is saying, I am going for natural
Scrappy RN
I'm your Huckleberry!
@Paul B Lol, I like natural better!! In humans and in tanks
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OP
OP
I like to say I'm "Bi Saline" LOL
And yea, I think we're going to see more and more natural tanks as more and more "cross training" occurs with freshwater people getting onto the reef game and vice versa...the benefits of applying elements of both are innumerable- obvious, and inevitable! And we're all a part of this! Cool
Scott
Paul's take on more natural tanks is what many of us had in the mid 80's to early 90's (basically, set it up with true live rock and sand, natural looking coral and hardy fish and then let it 'do it's thing' with minimal interference). Somewhere along the line we got hooked into believing that every coral needed to look like a black light poster child (or else it was considered 'defective') and the corals would then be displayed like lighted up curios on shelves. For anyone who has observed a real coral reef, this type of tank is pretty far away from a natural look.
I've seen some nice examples of more natural looking tanks lately, so perhaps we'll see a return to more natural looking reef setups as time goes by.
Ralph.
I've seen some nice examples of more natural looking tanks lately, so perhaps we'll see a return to more natural looking reef setups as time goes by.
Ralph.
OP
OP
Agreed, Ralph...Somewhere along the line, we developed some different interests. Now, there is nothing wrong with loving crazy fluorescent corals. Heck, I do...and I made a decent living at selling the stuff as well. That being said, running a system more naturally doesn't preclude one from having "LE-type" corals (ughhhhh- can't believe I"m using that term), it just means that one should adapt a more natural, holistic approach, rather than the sterile, "used car lot"-style frag displays many reef seem to be. The truly successful ones (Like Julian, Sanjay, etc. etc.) embrace both their love of coral AND the eloquence of nature. Obviously, I'm not yearning for the gentler kinder days where a piece of bubble algae on a slab of "live rock" (Often Florida roadkill back in the day) was the basis of a "mini reef." Nope. Just saying, nature's been doing this pretty well for eons...we'd do well to listen to what she has to say!
I mean, everyone should enjoy the hobby the way they want...I have seen plenty of reef builds with plumbing and such in the colors of favorite brands of gear, etc.- whatever floats your boat! I just think a lot of reefers would be a lot happier- and a lot less frustrated- if they'd "re-acquaint" themselves with natural processes again. It's all there..we as reefers just need to reach for it.
-Scott
With our current blue-biased LED arrays, there's no doubt that some corals will have crazy fluorescence, often much more so than what we'd see on the natural reef. Like you said, this is fine and for many in this hobby it's a big draw. Over time, I've personally come to appreciate a mix of both fluorescent and non fluorescent pigmented corals that have grown in together over time as this appears more natural in my eyes.
Agreed. As far as understanding the natural biological processes and the various cycles (carbon, nitrogen and phosphate), this requires some study and thought to get a good grasp on what is going on in our little boxes of saltwater. Quite frankly, not all aquarists want to go there, but without at least an understanding of the basics one is at a disadvantage for sure.
Ralph.
Paul B
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Totally agree. I find I went through cycles. I used to like carnivore fish, then I went to more peaceful fish, then to soft corals, then to LPS, then my tank was full of SPS but that is problematic if you have a life because they require more attention and no matter what you do, your tank will never look like the sea which is what I now go for. Of course I am in the vast minority as I really don't like SPS that much because they don't really do anything. At least soft corals, gorgonians, leathers and LPS move a little which I find interesting. Kind of like a belly dancer, if she is just standing there I get bored in two minutes.
Now, over the last 15 or so years I enjoy more obscure, rare or odd fish. Many of those fish I can rarely see in my tank but I know they are there. Things like clingfish, possum wrasses, cusk eels, Janss pipefish. You rarely if ever see them, but I know they are there. Those types of fish also depend on mulm or biofilms to survive as we can't provide the correct foods for them in the right amounts artificially by just buying pods in a bottle.
Even if you do keep a tank full of "sticks" they will greatly benefit long term with mulm which provides microscopic life.
When I turn off my lights, after a few minutes I see (barely) multitudes of "things" swimming all over the place. Those "things" are what feeds corals in my tank and in the sea. Living foods to supplement corals and fish are far superior to anything you can buy in a package.
Mulms and biofilms take years to develop to where they can produce any sort of food in a usable quantity so even if your tank crashes for some reason and you re-start it, try not to eliminate those mulms if possible.
The bacteria that make them up can withstand many things but not copper or antibiotics, that is death to bio films and makes it much harder to keep a tank long term.
I think Scott agrees that stability in a tank is key as these things don't develop overnight.
I almost never see this perchlet, but he sees me.
OP
OP
Totally agree. I find I went through cycles. I used to like carnivore fish, then I went to more peaceful fish, then to soft corals, then to LPS, then my tank was full of SPS but that is problematic if you have a life because they require more attention and no matter what you do, your tank will never look like the sea which is what I now go for. Of course I am in the vast minority as I really don't like SPS that much because they don't really do anything. At least soft corals, gorgonians, leathers and LPS move a little which I find interesting. Kind of like a belly dancer, if she is just standing there I get bored in two minutes.
Now, over the last 15 or so years I enjoy more obscure, rare or odd fish. Many of those fish I can rarely see in my tank but I know they are there. Things like clingfish, possum wrasses, cusk eels, Janss pipefish. You rarely if ever see them, but I know they are there. Those types of fish also depend on mulm or biofilms to survive as we can't provide the correct foods for them in the right amounts artificially by just buying pods in a bottle.
Even if you do keep a tank full of "sticks" they will greatly benefit long term with mulm which provides microscopic life.
When I turn off my lights, after a few minutes I see (barely) multitudes of "things" swimming all over the place. Those "things" are what feeds corals in my tank and in the sea. Living foods to supplement corals and fish are far superior to anything you can buy in a package.
Mulms and biofilms take years to develop to where they can produce any sort of food in a usable quantity so even if your tank crashes for some reason and you re-start it, try not to eliminate those mulms if possible.
The bacteria that make them up can withstand many things but not copper or antibiotics, that is death to bio films and makes it much harder to keep a tank long term.
I think Scott agrees that stability in a tank is key as these things don't develop overnight.
I almost never see this perchlet, but he sees me.
Love your advice about NOT eliminating mulm and biofilms. I think we have a bias because to us, they look so "messy". I'll have to find a dive shot I took of a reef in Belize a number of years back- about 80 feet down. I was looking for (and found in abundance) so Royal Grammas, but also found a literal "garden" of all sorts of macrolage (Dictyota, CLadophora, etc., etc.) that would freak any reefer out if they saw their live rock covered in- but it looked so amazing; so natural- I was like, This is material for a new tank!" We need to shift our "mind set" away from clean, sterile-looking systems, and understand that the form and function of the lower life forms we view as "dirty" or whatever- are as beautiful- and worthy- as any of the expensive corals and fishes we love. "Holistic reef keeping" is not a nickname for "sloppiness"- rather, it's a term to describe a mindset as much as an aesthetic...worth considering, I believe!
Scrappy RN
I'm your Huckleberry!
Lol! Men.Kind of like a belly dancer, if she is just standing there I get bored in two minutes.
;Joyful
Reefiness
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Very nice read. I definitely think there is some beauty to a freshwater tank done right like you mentioned, but I think there is just something about reefing that draws people in. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of freshwater hobbyists that do things right and have incredible tanks, but it always seems people who get into the "aquatic" hobby tend to always start freshwater and "step" their way up towards a reef tank as they get better and better. I think this also may be one of the reasons you see many more freshwater hobbyists who seem to keep their tanks set up more so how they want it and less so how their inhabitants want it.
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