Weird CO2 observation

Dennis Cartier

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This is not exactly a chemistry question, but I suspect the correct answer involves chemistry.

Here goes, I recently had a odd situation occur. I have an IFM pressure sensor installed on my Aquarium Engineering ACR CaRx. Because I am using it on the 'wet' side of the CO2 feed, downstream of the check valve, where CO2 and saltwater could come in contact, I have a Plast-o-matic gauge guard protecting it. The gauge guard separates the sensor from the media using a membrane. On the sensor side of the membrane, you have to fill the void with a liquid to accurately transfer the pressure experienced by the membrane, to the sensor.

I have being running this system for about a year with no issues. I have been using an older style of their gauge guard, filled with mineral oil. Recently, I decided to switch to one of their newer, cheaper models of guards, instead of the industrial version that I had been using. At the same time, I decided to use RODI as the filler for the sensor side. My thinking was if the membrane ever ruptured, only RODI would leak into the tank.

Ok, here is where things get weird. I installed the new gauge guard along with a new, but similar, IFM sensor onto my CaRx. It was working as expected, monitoring and automating the pressure inside the CaRx to ensure proper cycling of the reactor. A normal cycle involves oscillating between a pressure of 4.0 to 5.0 PSI, with different equipment active as preset pressures are reached. Then I noticed that the cycle was slowing, it was taking longer for each 0.1 PSI of pressure change. Because the flow rate of the effluent leaving the reactor determines the rate of change, and since I had not changed the flow rate, I knew something was amiss. After observing it over a few hours, the slowdown increased until it stopped changing all together and stayed at 4.3 PSI. My first guess was that the new IFM sensor I had installed was bad, but when I removed the sensor assembly (with the guard still attached), the pressure still read 4.3 PSI with process side of the guard open to atmosphere. It should have read 0.0 PSI. When I removed the sensor from the guard, the pressure reading dropped to 0.0 PSI. I also observed bubbles in the RODI inside the guard. It almost looked like the RODI was carbonated.

My first assumption was that the gauge guard had a leak and was allowing media to bypass the membrane. I am not so sure of that anymore though. What I think happened is that the Buna-N membrane in the guard is permeable to CO2 and allowed over 3 or 4 days, enough CO2 to saturate the RODI and 'pressurize' it to the average pressure of the cycle (apparently 4.3 PSI). It probably took a few days for enough CO2 to saturate the RODI so that the static pressure could build up and slow the cycling.

I did not see this behavior with the larger industrial guard from the same manufacturer, filled with mineral oil. It's possible that the older guard uses a different membrane material. The newer entry level guards only come with either Bun-N or Viton for membranes. So I am not sure if the difference in fill media (RODI instead of mineral oil) or a difference in the permeability of the membrane to CO2, or if it's just a defective item.

This has me scratching my head as to what the exact cause is. For the moment I swapped the guard for another of the newer style of guard and filled it with mineral oil. I checked with the manufacturer and they only recommend filing with mineral oil for that model of guard.

If the problem does not re-occur with the swapped guard, than I plan to fill the suspected defective guard with mineral oil and test to see if the issue re-occurs. If it does, than it would indicated a bad guard. Otherwise the different behavior of RODI and mineral oil when exposed to CO2?

Any insight or musings welcomed.
 

taricha

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I like the puzzle, but I have no answers.
theoretically, I don't see why your setup would care if there were gas bubbles inside the pressure membrane. Gas is a fluid just like liquid and an increase in pressure outside the flexible membrane ought to increase the pressure inside the membrane just the same even if there were gas bubbles in there. (but that's theory, and I have no idea how the pressure sensor actually works.)

lower and lower changes in pressure, settling on an average value sounds more like the flexible membrane was losing its flexibility. To the point that exposing it to 0.0 PSI still read the same pressure because the membrane lost all flexibility.
 

Sean Clark

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Crazy problem to have. I like the co2 permeating the membrane hypothesis.

Glycerin could be another fill option to consider and it could be "safer" than the mineral oil.
The amount of buffer fluid is so small that I doubt a leak would cause any real problems.
 
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Dennis Cartier

Dennis Cartier

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Crazy problem to have. I like the co2 permeating the membrane hypothesis.

Glycerin could be another fill option to consider and it could be "safer" than the mineral oil.
The amount of buffer fluid is so small that I doubt a leak would cause any real problems.
Yes, I was wondering if glycerin might be more tank safe. They suggest glycerin for some of their other models of guards (with EPDM diaphragms), but only suggest mineral oil for the cheaper budget version (Buna-n or Viton diaphragms).
 
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Dennis Cartier

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So after thinking about this some more, I think I can determine if the guard has a leak or has issues with CO2 diffusion through the membrane. My older guard, still reads 0.4 PSI when uninstalled. When I installed the sensor on this guard, I was not aware of how to zero out the reading by releasing excess fluid trapped on the sensor side of the membrane. In any case, the reading when exposed to atmosphere is always 0.4 PSI, even after months of use. So it stands to reason that if I remove the newer guard assembly, now filled with mineral oil, and it does not drop back to it's zero reading, in this case 0.2 PSI (I couldn't quite get it to zero out when filling), then CO2 has managed to diffuse to the sensor side and build up a higher pressure. It took a few days for the first guard to show symptoms, so I will give it a couple of days before checking.

If the first test shows no sign of pressure build up on the sensor side, then I will repeat the test using the first guard that showed the issue and see if after a few days, it accumulates pressure. If so that would indicate a defect in the diaphragm rather than CO2 diffusing through the membrane.
 
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Dennis Cartier

Dennis Cartier

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Well my test of a new guard filled with mineral oil failed. It also built up pressure on the sensor side. I noticed my custom CaRx controller was slowing down and when I started a vent cycle, which will allow the CaRx to drop back to atmospheric, the sensor still read 4.0 PSI :angry-face:

I removed the sensor assembly and powered it up on my counter. By that time it had dropped to 3.1 PSI and continued to drop slowly (as shown by the photos below).

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So for some reason the Buna-N diaphragm is apparently permeable to CO2 and allows the gas to diffuse through the membrane. This is really unexpected, so I have reached out to Plast-o-matic for input if this is possible as well if the Viton version of the guard would stop this from occurring.

CO2 is a pretty common gas, so this result is very unexpected. I am wondering if the presence of saltwater in addition to the CO2 is affecting the characteristics of the membrane.
 
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Dennis Cartier

Dennis Cartier

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I heard back from the OEM. The guard in question with the BUNA-N seal should have no problem with saltwater or CO2. So no answer there.

I have ordered the Viton version of this guard to test.

This has me really stumped. Unless both of the guards I received happen to be defective.
 

Sean Clark

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I am surprised to see failures on theses but stuff happens.

Spears offer their Gauge Guards in PTFE, FKM, and EPDM variants if you can't get the Plast o matic ones sorted out.
 
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Dennis Cartier

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I am surprised to see failures on theses but stuff happens.

Spears offer their Gauge Guards in PTFE, FKM, and EPDM variants if you can't get the Plast o matic ones sorted out.
The GGME economy series of guards that they sell are not made by Plast-o-matic, they are purchased overseas. So I am guessing they are Asian imports. I use one of their larger US made GGMT guards and have no issues.

The tech at Plast-o-matic confirmed that both CO2 and saltwater are OK for the GGME series, so I can only assume both guards are defective. I have ordered a replacement with a Viton membrane, still in the GGME series.
 
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Dennis Cartier

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I have decided to abandon the GGME line of guards from Plast-o-matic. To have them fail to isolate the device installed on the gauge side, which is their primary purpose, gives me little confidence in them.

I located and purchased several new in box GGMT1-PV from their older discontinued line. I will use those going forward (and it's the same model I have traditionally used).

Interestingly, the IFM sensor that I left powered up overnight, with the guard still attached, had decreased to 1.8 PSI. So the equalization back to atmospheric was continuing, but at a slower pace.
 
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