What am I doing wrong?

[Heabel7]

Please read and help. Just shy of 10 years in reefing. I have had problems since day one. At this point I feel like I have a good grasp of what needs to be done and yet there’s constant pain points.

-Tank= 90 gallon with 20L sump,
-Automated 2 part dosing
-slight oversized skimmer run 24/7
-filter socks changed every 2-3days depending on if they get clogged up.
-Bi-weekly water change 20-30 gallons
-Flow comsist of return pump, x350 gyre, -mp40, RW-8.
-8.0 ph,450 cal, 1350 mag
-detectable nitrates
-.006-.03 phosphates
- run GFO in filter socks but not in reactor. When I did do reactor my corals were very pale and slow growing in addition no change to algae despite it being 0ppm
-8 fish of various sizes mostly small like clowns
- giant frogspawn, large leather tree, 4 largish sps colonies softball size, 4 just past frag size

Problems
-Algae always although currently pretty good
-cyano cyano cyano. I have gone 6months straight vacuuming out 2 times a week with also doing weekly water changes. VERY ODD my sps look best when cyano arrives.
- I have killed cyano off multiple times with chemical clean and it just comes back a month later
- I have had two mass deaths usually in the winter time. November and December. One was total sps death. Other was partial.
- I have tried to grow cheato 3 times. Each time it grows like crazy and then dies a slow death no matter how much I feed or does iron or cheato growth supplements.

im writing this because the cyano is coming back again. I just did a water change yesterday. Vacuumed out what little cyano there was and today is worse than yesterday. BUT I’m seeing GREAT polyp extension like I haven’t seen in months. Shaking my head because I just don’t get it.

what do you think?

 

[blaxsun]

Some corals like it a bit dirtier - others less so. You're running really low nutrients which might be attributed to some of the algae outbreaks.

 

[CoralB]

You have too much taking out pho’s and nitrates . Your nitrates need to come up between 5-15 ppm , the cyano is from low pho’s and or nitrates , phosphates should be between 0.5 and 1. . I would stop the gfo and maybe put your skimmer on a time and run according to how long so that your not over stripping nitrates . Feed more to help add more nitrates . Reef roid are great for raising nitrates and phosphates. You should never zero out nitrates or phosphates or even close . That’s what is causing cyano and if you don’t get on top of it it will the next step is Dino’s . Also once you get you parameters 75% Of the secret to the success in this hobby is stable parameters and patience

 

[Spare time]

When you say "detectable" nitrate, what does that mean? Cyano is very tolerable of 0 or low nitrate environments.

 

[Heabel7]

When you say "detectable" nitrate, what does that mean? Cyano is very tolerable of 0 or low nitrate environments.

Nyos test kit 1-3 mg/l

 

[Spare time]

Nyos test kit 1-3 mg/l

Maybe consider putting the skimmer on a timer (i.e. only on at night).

 

[Heabel7]

You have too much taking out pho’s and nitrates . Your nitrates need to come up between 5-15 ppm , the cyano is from low pho’s and or nitrates , phosphates should be between 0.5 and 1. . I would stop the gfo and maybe put your skimmer on a time and run according to how long so that your not over stripping nitrates . Feed more to help add more nitrates . Reef roid are great for raising nitrates and phosphates. You should never zero out nitrates or phosphates or even close . That’s what is causing cyano and if you don’t get on top of it it will the next step is Dino’s . Also once you get you parameters 75% Of the secret to the success in this hobby is stable parameters and patience

I seen phosphates .1+ so I started doing gfo again to bring it down. Should I be ok at .1 and above? It seems it’s still recommended to stay around .03 or undetectable with heavy feeding.

should I reduce my water changes to possibly 10% by-weekly?

 

[Dom]

Problems
-Algae always although currently pretty good
-cyano cyano cyano. I have gone 6months straight vacuuming out 2 times a week with also doing weekly water changes. VERY ODD my sps look best when cyano arrives.
- I have killed cyano off multiple times with chemical clean and it just comes back a month later
- I have had two mass deaths usually in the winter time. November and December. One was total sps death. Other was partial.
- I have tried to grow cheato 3 times. Each time it grows like crazy and then dies a slow death no matter how much I feed or does iron or cheato growth supplements.

im writing this because the cyano is coming back again. I just did a water change yesterday. Vacuumed out what little cyano there was and today is worse than yesterday. BUT I’m seeing GREAT polyp extension like I haven’t seen in months. Shaking my head because I just don’t get it.

what do you think?

1. Are you doing FAITHFUL water changes?
2. Are you using tap water or RODI?
3. Does your sump use a refugium?
4. Do you have power heads in the tank? How many?

 

[Heabel7]

1. Are you doing FAITHFUL water changes?
2. Are you using tap water or RODI?
3. Does your sump use a refugium?
4. Do you have power heads in the tank? How many?

1.Very faithful water changes
Rodi
2.No algae fugr but some rock in there. 3.Vacuum fuge with every water change
4. Mp40, large gyre, rw-8 for flow

 

[CoralB]

I wouldn’t go over 1. And .03 dosnt leave much room for error that’s why I would shoot for .05 - 1. And try to keep it between . Sps usually like it cleaner , lps and softies a little dirtier . I have a mixed tank and I keep phosphates around .05 and .07 and my nitrates at 15-20but I have more lps and softies which like it dirtier . As far as water changes I do ten percent weekly as i believe it’s less of a shock and depending on how well your parameters are kept it’s less of a swing in parameters . How much of a CUC do you have to combat the algae you have because if you start growing too much algae it can strip your nitrates and some phosphates from your tank keeping your numbers low

 

[CoralB]

Do you have sand in your tank or bare bottom ?

 

[Heabel7]

Do you have sand in your tank or bare bottom ?

bare bottom, green algae is darn good at the moment (meaning very little tuffs) but my rocks are green at my highest daylight setting. hair algae has not been what i would consider out of control for a year or so. but i have trouble growing coralline consistently, and I have a form of red turf algae that is only eaten by Mexican turbos as far as I can tell. I have 2 huge snails about the size of a tennis ball. 5-6 golf ball or smaller turbos, some astrias and a couple hermit crabs. I only see them all after the lights go out. therefore difficult to know what's left. I also have an urchin that mostly just eats coraline off the back glass at night.

Actually my coralline has always grown best when I have neglected my tank (I almost gave up about 3 years ago after my first major crash). Maybe that's a clear sign I have been running to clean for the life of my tank. I just don't understand how you can have algae, yet have too low of nutrients to have a healthy tank. Seems counter intuitive.

 

[CoralB]

Sounds like a lively tank . I personally prefer sand bottom as I feel it buffers and helps to keep the parameters in question stable . When doing my weekly water change I vacuum 1/4 of the area of the sand and that way every month the complete sand bed gets cleaned leaving food for CUC . I personally think that ur running on the fence of doing too much to keep your tank clean at this point . If you follow what I said to do in the earlier post you should be on your way to getting where you need to be and enjoying your tank , I know there are more things that may or may not need tweaking like lighting which we haven’t even asked about but the pho’s and nitrates right now are your most important issues . And even when you get things back to normal although it will be easier to deal with ,there will always be things that will need adjustments for like say if you add more fish more coral . It funny because in the beginning of every tank that I’ve set up in all the years it always starts out that I’m trying to export nitrates and phosphates but as the coral grow and of course I get more and they grow pretty soon I end up importing nitrates and phosphates because their being consumed by the coral . This is and has been a great hobby . Always learning new stuff . They have so much advancement in this hobby in the last 20 -30 years both in equipment and most importantly information . Plus we didn’t have the internet like it is now or groups like this for everyone to help each other . Great time to be in the hobby . I wish you the best of luck , hope I’ve helped , and don’t forget to test your water . Plus your corals will usually let you know if something is off . Consistency and patience are key .

 

[Timfish]

My gut feeling is you're doing too much to try to maintain a stable environment. I'd suggest cutting back on the sizes of water chagnes so the monthly total is 20% to 30%. With each water change siphon out nuisance algae but don't increase the size of the water change if you haven't gotten everything, idea is just to reduce what's visable. Stop adding anything except fish food and whatever supplements you're using to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. Personally I would add sand, as pointed out above it helps buffering and there's lots of biology that happens in the sand that's likley beneficial, but I know it's an easthitic thing for some people so maybe add some to your sump/refugium. If you're specifically adding food for your corals stop for now until things look better THEN carefully start traget feeding and CLOSELY observing the results, corals can be surprisingly finicky about feeding and what one coral likes another will hate, best leave this variable out of hte picture for now.

When you think of "nutrients" don't think of it in terms of "nitrate" and "PO4". Think of nutrients in terms of Particulate Organic Carbon, Dissolved Organic Carbon and Dissolved Inorganic Carbon; Particulate Organic Nitrogen, Dissolved Organic Nitrogen and Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen; Particulate Organic Phosphorus, Dissolved Organic Phosphorus and Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus. Yes, I know we can only test for just the inorganic stuff. But that just shows how inadequate our tests are. But it does help expain why "everything" can be "ideal" and corals won't do well and why beautiful tanks can be way out of whack.

FWIW most of the ocean is ~.2mg/l PO4. Upwelling will expose many reefs to those levels and the reason some reefs do test very low is because corals are sucking up the phosphorus and are probably relying on particualte organic and dissolved organic forms to keep from becoming deficient. Without duplicating the food webs I would not try to keep PO4 low.

Here's some refference stuff if you're interested:

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

Fig 4 from "Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts"

Error - Cookies Turned Off

Fig 3 from "Context-dependant effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algae mutualism"


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

 

[Heabel7]

My gut feeling is you're doing too much to try to maintain a stable environment. I'd suggest cutting back on the sizes of water chagnes so the monthly total is 20% to 30%. With each water change siphon out nuisance algae but don't increase the size of the water change if you haven't gotten everything, idea is just to reduce what's visable. Stop adding anything except fish food and whatever supplements you're using to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. Personally I would add sand, as pointed out above it helps buffering and there's lots of biology that happens in the sand that's likley beneficial, but I know it's an easthitic thing for some people so maybe add some to your sump/refugium. If you're specifically adding food for your corals stop for now until things look better THEN carefully start traget feeding and CLOSELY observing the results, corals can be surprisingly finicky about feeding and what one coral likes another will hate, best leave this variable out of hte picture for now.

When you think of "nutrients" don't think of it in terms of "nitrate" and "PO4". Think of nutrients in terms of Particulate Organic Carbon, Dissolved Organic Carbon and Dissolved Inorganic Carbon; Particulate Organic Nitrogen, Dissolved Organic Nitrogen and Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen; Particulate Organic Phosphorus, Dissolved Organic Phosphorus and Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus. Yes, I know we can only test for just the inorganic stuff. But that just shows how inadequate our tests are. But it does help expain why "everything" can be "ideal" and corals won't do well and why beautiful tanks can be way out of whack.

FWIW most of the ocean is ~.2mg/l PO4. Upwelling will expose many reefs to those levels and the reason some reefs do test very low is because corals are sucking up the phosphorus and are probably relying on particualte organic and dissolved organic forms to keep from becoming deficient. Without duplicating the food webs I would not try to keep PO4 low.

Here's some refference stuff if you're interested:

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

Fig 4 from "Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts"

Error - Cookies Turned Off

Fig 3 from "Context-dependant effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algae mutualism"


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Tons of information here. Thank you for putting it together. I guess I’ll do something I have never really done. Less water changes and slight neglect….. However, none of it explains how I can have too clean a system and still have algae, cyano, and abundance of bristle stars and such. All that says too many nutrients from everything I have read in the past. I guess it’s time for a change.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

My gut feeling is you're doing too much to try to maintain a stable environment. I'd suggest cutting back on the sizes of water chagnes so the monthly total is 20% to 30%. With each water change siphon out nuisance algae but don't increase the size of the water change if you haven't gotten everything, idea is just to reduce what's visable. Stop adding anything except fish food and whatever supplements you're using to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. Personally I would add sand, as pointed out above it helps buffering and there's lots of biology that happens in the sand that's likley beneficial, but I know it's an easthitic thing for some people so maybe add some to your sump/refugium. If you're specifically adding food for your corals stop for now until things look better THEN carefully start traget feeding and CLOSELY observing the results, corals can be surprisingly finicky about feeding and what one coral likes another will hate, best leave this variable out of hte picture for now.

When you think of "nutrients" don't think of it in terms of "nitrate" and "PO4". Think of nutrients in terms of Particulate Organic Carbon, Dissolved Organic Carbon and Dissolved Inorganic Carbon; Particulate Organic Nitrogen, Dissolved Organic Nitrogen and Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen; Particulate Organic Phosphorus, Dissolved Organic Phosphorus and Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus. Yes, I know we can only test for just the inorganic stuff. But that just shows how inadequate our tests are. But it does help expain why "everything" can be "ideal" and corals won't do well and why beautiful tanks can be way out of whack.

FWIW most of the ocean is ~.2mg/l PO4. Upwelling will expose many reefs to those levels and the reason some reefs do test very low is because corals are sucking up the phosphorus and are probably relying on particualte organic and dissolved organic forms to keep from becoming deficient. Without duplicating the food webs I would not try to keep PO4 low.

Here's some refference stuff if you're interested:

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

Fig 4 from "Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts"

Error - Cookies Turned Off

Fig 3 from "Context-dependant effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algae mutualism"


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

@Timfish, Thank you for all this!! Bookmarked this post for weekend reading

 

[Timfish]

Tons of information here. Thank you for putting it together. . . All that says too many nutrients . . .

You're welcom!

Food webs are complex and as reef ecosystems are the most complex ecosystems we know of it follows the food webs will be also. Keep in mind we cannot test for most of what's going on and corals and algae are competing for the same nutrients. Often what we do is more likely to disrupt corals ability to compete and/or help give algae an edge over corals. My suggestions are what I've found to help give corals the upper hand and gradually remove thier algal competitors, to help shift the equilibrium of a reef ecosystem to one that supports corals and not algae.

 

[hubble]

I would take out the GFO, run skimmer 12HRS on/off, once a month water change 20%. Let some nutrients build up and try to get tank in balance

 

[Martyd]

Please read and help. Just shy of 10 years in reefing. I have had problems since day one. At this point I feel like I have a good grasp of what needs to be done and yet there’s constant pain points.

-Tank= 90 gallon with 20L sump,
-Automated 2 part dosing
-slight oversized skimmer run 24/7
-filter socks changed every 2-3days depending on if they get clogged up.
-Bi-weekly water change 20-30 gallons
-Flow comsist of return pump, x350 gyre, -mp40, RW-8.
-8.0 ph,450 cal, 1350 mag
-detectable nitrates
-.006-.03 phosphates
- run GFO in filter socks but not in reactor. When I did do reactor my corals were very pale and slow growing in addition no change to algae despite it being 0ppm
-8 fish of various sizes mostly small like clowns
- giant frogspawn, large leather tree, 4 largish sps colonies softball size, 4 just past frag size

Problems
-Algae always although currently pretty good
-cyano cyano cyano. I have gone 6months straight vacuuming out 2 times a week with also doing weekly water changes. VERY ODD my sps look best when cyano arrives.
- I have killed cyano off multiple times with chemical clean and it just comes back a month later
- I have had two mass deaths usually in the winter time. November and December. One was total sps death. Other was partial.
- I have tried to grow cheato 3 times. Each time it grows like crazy and then dies a slow death no matter how much I feed or does iron or cheato growth supplements.

im writing this because the cyano is coming back again. I just did a water change yesterday. Vacuumed out what little cyano there was and today is worse than yesterday. BUT I’m seeing GREAT polyp extension like I haven’t seen in months. Shaking my head because I just don’t get it.

what do you think?

What is the source of your water for ATO and water changes? I’m assuming you are using RO/DI, if so, what is your TDS? In my opinion, it should be at or very close to 0 ppm. Do you start out with well or city water? Well water seems to be most problematic.

Have you tried a good UV sterilizer? I added one and it keeps my fish healthier and kills nuisance algae, like red slime, that is in the water column. I think the benefits of running one, outweighs any potential negatives.

What are your Alk levels? Your calcium levels are ok, but a bit high in my opinion. I’m betting your Alk is low.

 

[Tony the Fish]

Use hanna nitrate checker rather than a color compare chart so you have actual results. Same goes for phospates