What are you dosing on top of All For Reef?

Hans-Werner

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@Hans-Werner I did try AFR and Plus-NP in the same container at a 19:1 ratio but I noticed it's a bit cloudy and after 1-3h there is a white substance on the bottom of the container. It will mix again if I shake the container a bit but I guess this will not allow me to auto dose both of them using one doser.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think this could be a phosphate precipitate, most likely calcium phosphate or struvit (ammonium magnesium phosphate).

If possible, stirring might be advantageous. The precipitate may most likely limits the use as a nutrient supply but it will not lower the calcium and alkalinity supply much, so you still can use it like AFR.

Regarding nutrients you can give it a try. If nutrient concentrations in your tank don't show the expected development or concentrations you may have to dose some Plus-NP manually.
 

Bramzor

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Thank you for sharing your experience. I think this could be a phosphate precipitate, most likely calcium phosphate or struvit (ammonium magnesium phosphate).

If possible, stirring might be advantageous. The precipitate may most likely limits the use as a nutrient supply but it will not lower the calcium and alkalinity supply much, so you still can use it like AFR.

Regarding nutrients you can give it a try. If nutrient concentrations in your tank don't show the expected development or concentrations you may have to dose some Plus-NP manually.
Thanks for the feedback. Do you remember if you had similar effect when you did the test with AFR and Bactobalance?
 

Hans-Werner

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Thanks for the feedback. Do you remember if you had similar effect when you did the test with AFR and Bactobalance?
No, I didn't see any precipitates in this experiments, most likely due to lower phosphate concentration of NP-Bacto-Balance. This also led me to the conclusion it might be phosphate.
 

Bramzor

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No, I didn't see any precipitates in this experiments, most likely due to lower phosphate concentration of NP-Bacto-Balance. This also led me to the conclusion it might be phosphate.
So using Bacto Balance with AFR should be "safe" to use?

A bit strange because in my test it was a 19:1 ratio with PlusNP and your test was 4:1 with BactoBalance . Which sounds like there should be similar or more phosphate in your experiment.
 

Hans-Werner

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So using Bacto Balance with AFR should be "safe" to use?

A bit strange because in my test it was a 19:1 ratio with PlusNP and your test was 4:1 with BactoBalance . Which sounds like there should be similar or more phosphate in your experiment.
It is correct that despite the lower phosphate concentration of NP-Bacto-Balance there is slightly more phosphate in the mix but with less calcium and different viscosity there are most likely fewer encounters of phosphate and calcium ions and less reaction of both.
 

Bramzor

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It is correct that despite the lower phosphate concentration of NP-Bacto-Balance there is slightly more phosphate in the mix but with less calcium and different viscosity there are most likely fewer encounters of phosphate and calcium ions and less reaction of both.
Did the test today and indeed, no (visible) precipitates with NP-Bacto-Balance in AFR compared to a LOT with Plus-NP. Used the same 19:1 ratio which looks like a "normal" ratio.

I really love the idea (especially for a nano reef) of dosing All For Reef and NP-Bacto-Balance together. Having to (auto) dose only a single solution that covers everything that All For Reef covers and an extra N and P together with carbon dosing, thats sound like a real all in one solution. Considering that for a nano tank, dosing BB on its own is not possible using a dosing pump.

The only issue I have is that I do not have a lot of nutrients (fishless tank for now) so I need to dose Plus-NP to keep on track with nutrients. But I wonder if I could use Plus-NP 1 or 2 days a week to boost NP and use the AllForReef+BactoBalance solution the rest of the time. Do I need to worry about BactoBalance zeroing my nutrients in the tank or is it safe because of the N and P in it as long as I use PlusNP sometimes to up the nutrients?
 

Biojay16

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On top of AFR I do use kalkwasser to maintain alkalinity and bump the PH up a bit. Been doing it for the last 3 months and I noticed a massive increase in coraline algae
Same situation with my Red Sea 250 stayed on all AFR just lowered daily dosage and started topping off with stirred kalk. Max ph was 7-8-8.0 now its steady 8.1-8.3. Keeping a close eye on Alk with trident but 1 month so far so good !
 

TangerineSpeedo

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Did the test today and indeed, no (visible) precipitates with NP-Bacto-Balance in AFR compared to a LOT with Plus-NP. Used the same 19:1 ratio which looks like a "normal" ratio.

I really love the idea (especially for a nano reef) of dosing All For Reef and NP-Bacto-Balance together. Having to (auto) dose only a single solution that covers everything that All For Reef covers and an extra N and P together with carbon dosing, thats sound like a real all in one solution. Considering that for a nano tank, dosing BB on its own is not possible using a dosing pump.

The only issue I have is that I do not have a lot of nutrients (fishless tank for now) so I need to dose Plus-NP to keep on track with nutrients. But I wonder if I could use Plus-NP 1 or 2 days a week to boost NP and use the AllForReef+BactoBalance solution the rest of the time. Do I need to worry about BactoBalance zeroing my nutrients in the tank or is it safe because of the N and P in it as long as I use PlusNP sometimes to up the nutrients?
I'm sorry I just came across this thread. So you are mixing 19 parts of AFR to one part Bacto-Balance? Because right now I am hand dosing B-B everyday in the morning. So if I can mix this together that would be great. Is it staying in solution?
 

Bramzor

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I'm sorry I just came across this thread. So you are mixing 19 parts of AFR to one part Bacto-Balance? Because right now I am hand dosing B-B everyday in the morning. So if I can mix this together that would be great. Is it staying in solution?

Correct, I did a 19:1 ratio but Hans did a 3:1 ratio which also worked. I'm not sure what ratio you would use but I guess it will be somewhere in between these numbers right? Haven't tested it over a long time but the solution stays clear (which it does not with Plus NP) so it should work.

How stable is your AFR and BB dosage? Meaning how frequently do you modify these dosages?
 

TangerineSpeedo

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Correct, I did a 19:1 ratio but Hans did a 3:1 ratio which also worked. I'm not sure what ratio you would use but I guess it will be somewhere in between these numbers right? Haven't tested it over a long time but the solution stays clear (which it does not with Plus NP) so it should work.

How stable is your AFR and BB dosage? Meaning how frequently do you modify these dosages?
Well, what I do is wrong, so don't do what I do. I am going to change it but I have to wait to get my new frag tank going. Right now all my frags are in my DT (40g) so my uptake on everything is intense.
I started out with AFR, and that was steady for a bit. Then my Cal consumption was on the rise, so I just started dosing ESV 2 part to make up the difference. Then I wanted to start dosing BB but my PO4 was too low, so I started with +NP. With that and heavy feeding I was able to get my PO4 high enough to start BB.
So here is the problem with adding band-aids like I did. AFR has trace elements in the proper ratio for Cal and ALK. But I am adding extra of those separately. So I am sure I am low on my trace. I did an ICP test and most of my trace was zero according to them. Which I do not fully trust this company but it was a free test. I have been adding K trace to make up for things. Plus weekly water changes.
What I need to do once I get my frag tank done, is reset so my main source of Cal/Alk and Trace is from AFR and supplement that with minor tweeks from ESV. But that will be a tricky/lot of testing thing and everything now is doing well. I don't want to rock the boat twice.
I would imagine that any successful system will never stabilized until all the growth is maxed out. I can see a percentage of AFR increase in correlation to growth rate of your corals.
 

Reef Puncher

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I does klakwasser on top of all for reef for the ph boost. But all for reef is all you really need unless you have a ton of sps. I have a moderate amount of sps.
so glad i found you saying that in this old post. i have been using kalkwasser up till last night. i just swapped to all for reef because i have been struggling with my trace elements. i asked someone else and they said you cant do both. but i was thinking about it alot today and was like why not?

so i mixed 900ml of all for reef with 300 ml of kalk and put that into an automatic doser. i dont see why i cant do that. worst case is the extra calcium and alk starts rising higher than the magnesium, so what, ill just dose extra mag then. i really dont want to lose that ph boost i got from kalk. i was constantly sitting at 8.4 and it was great. I know its gonna drop some, i expect that, but im hoping the small amount of kalk helps. if anything i might add more of a kalk ratio. right now its a ratio of 3 to 1. maybe ill go 2 to 1 ratio, or half and half. what do you do?
 

Mechano

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so glad i found you saying that in this old post. i have been using kalkwasser up till last night. i just swapped to all for reef because i have been struggling with my trace elements. i asked someone else and they said you cant do both. but i was thinking about it alot today and was like why not?

so i mixed 900ml of all for reef with 300 ml of kalk and put that into an automatic doser. i dont see why i cant do that. worst case is the extra calcium and alk starts rising higher than the magnesium, so what, ill just dose extra mag then. i really dont want to lose that ph boost i got from kalk. i was constantly sitting at 8.4 and it was great. I know its gonna drop some, i expect that, but im hoping the small amount of kalk helps. if anything i might add more of a kalk ratio. right now its a ratio of 3 to 1. maybe ill go 2 to 1 ratio, or half and half. what do you do?
Not sure he meant that he mixed the kalk with the all-for-reef. As I recall that is a no-no.

If what you meant was keep you AFR in one dosing container and your kalk in a separate dosing container, that would be fine
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Not sure he mean that he mixed the kalk with the all-for-reef. As I recall that is a no-no.

If what you meant was keep you AFR in one dosing container and your kalk in a separate dosing container, that would be fine
I agree.
 

Lou Ekus

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so glad i found you saying that in this old post. i have been using kalkwasser up till last night. i just swapped to all for reef because i have been struggling with my trace elements. i asked someone else and they said you cant do both. but i was thinking about it alot today and was like why not?

so i mixed 900ml of all for reef with 300 ml of kalk and put that into an automatic doser. i dont see why i cant do that. worst case is the extra calcium and alk starts rising higher than the magnesium, so what, ill just dose extra mag then. i really dont want to lose that ph boost i got from kalk. i was constantly sitting at 8.4 and it was great. I know its gonna drop some, i expect that, but im hoping the small amount of kalk helps. if anything i might add more of a kalk ratio. right now its a ratio of 3 to 1. maybe ill go 2 to 1 ratio, or half and half. what do you do?
Make sure you dose them separately. Also, the one down side of doing it this way, is that the more Kalk you use, the less traces you are getting from the AFR. This means that you are decreasing the very thing you are using the AFR for. ... Just a thought.
 

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Make sure you dose them separately. Also, the one down side of doing it this way, is that the more Kalk you use, the less traces you are getting from the AFR. This means that you are decreasing the very thing you are using the AFR for. ... Just a thought.
youre so right. im hoping water changes make up for the slight lack of trace. what i ended up doing was figuring out the proper dose of All for reef that i needed. It ended up being about 18ml's a day to maintain. so i deducted only 4mls and substitued that lack of alk/calc with kalk wasser dosed at night. so 80% of my alk/calc is still coming from the all for reef now. It seems to be working well. my ph is still decent, and my alk is stable at 10.1 and calcium is stable at 460.
I did end up separating and putting in separate dosers.
BTW i have watched most of your interviews, from places like BRS, reef dudes, etc., and i use your companies ICP tests too! good company!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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youre so right. im hoping water changes make up for the slight lack of trace. what i ended up doing was figuring out the proper dose of All for reef that i needed. It ended up being about 18ml's a day to maintain. so i deducted only 4mls and substitued that lack of alk/calc with kalk wasser dosed at night. so 80% of my alk/calc is still coming from the all for reef now. It seems to be working well. my ph is still decent, and my alk is stable at 10.1 and calcium is stable at 460.
I did end up separating and putting in separate dosers.
BTW i have watched most of your interviews, from places like BRS, reef dudes, etc., and i use your companies ICP tests too! good company!

If the goal of the AFR is adding trace elements, then it can be accomplished more cheaply with a trace element mix (such as TM A and K) plus the kalkwasser. :)
 

Lou Ekus

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If the goal of the AFR is adding trace elements, then it can be accomplished more cheaply with a trace element mix (such as TM A and K) plus the kalkwasser. :)
Almost! The goal of the AFR is not to supplement trace element depletion, but to supplement trace elements used in proportion to the amount of calcification requiring the calcium and alkalinity supplementation.
The point I was trying to make (maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation) is that the amount of trace elements in the AFR is designed to make up for the trace elements used in the calcification of the coral. This translates to supplementing the amount of traces depleted by the amount of calcification determined by the calcium/alkalinity consumption. If Kalkwasser is used to supplement the calcium/alkalinity consumption, then a smaller amount of the AFR is used to supplement those compounds. This results in a situation where the amount of trace elements going into the system is lower than the amount being taken up due to calcification because whatever amount of Kalkwasser is being used, is depleting the amount of AFR going in. And the Kalkwasser does not supplement those traces.
At 80% AFR, this is not a big issue. But if a higher percentage of Kalkwasser is being used, then it can make quite a difference.
I hope that explains what I was trying to say. :)
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Almost! The goal of the AFR is not to supplement trace element depletion, but to supplement trace elements used in proportion to the amount of calcification requiring the calcium and alkalinity supplementation.
The point I was trying to make (maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation) is that the amount of trace elements in the AFR is designed to make up for the trace elements used in the calcification of the coral. This translates to supplementing the amount of traces depleted by the amount of calcification determined by the calcium/alkalinity consumption. If Kalkwasser is used to supplement the calcium/alkalinity consumption, then a smaller amount of the AFR is used to supplement those compounds. This results in a situation where the amount of trace elements going into the system is lower than the amount being taken up due to calcification because whatever amount of Kalkwasser is being used, is depleting the amount of AFR going in. And the Kalkwasser does not supplement those traces.
At 80% AFR, this is not a big issue. But if a higher percentage of Kalkwasser is being used, then it can make quite a difference.
I hope that explains what I was trying to say. :)

My statement related to the person who I was responding to, where he did indicate that he was thinking about the lack of trace elements making that switch to kalkwasser . Hence my statement that he could accomplish that task in other ways.
 

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