What do we, as reefers, want?

[ahayes13]

If it is under attinics just say it if or is photoshoppwd say it.

+1 --- i wish more people were honest about their pictures and how they have edited it. especially when you know that the person who buys the coral is probably gonna be like what the heck this looks nothing like the picture. Youd think that youd want to be honest and have customers come back to you to purchase other things, which they are likely to not do if you are selling corals that are photoshoped pics or whatever and they get it and it doesnt look like what they thought it would......

 

[acronautical]

Here is a question to you. When you look at you tank, (honestly) what is the first think you think of? Is it about money spent or money to be made? Or is it a feeling of content and interest in the beauty if a living organism. Neither answer is wrong! It is just your way of looking at the hobby!

I certainly agree with most of your sentiments, Ian. But, if I understood this portion of your statement, I would disagree. I think that looking at your system from the perspective of money spent, and especially money to be made, transforms a person from a true hobbiest to a merchant/vendor. I went through a brief phase, perhaps one out of my six years in the hobby, where I was actively seeking out LE=type pieces, and occasionally spending too much. I've finally found my roots again, leaving the tank alone and rarely purchasing any new additions. It's nice to simply ponder the tank with the family and relax again, like I did with my first 55 gallon mixed reef. There are a few corals I would like to add, but I am glad the "feeding-frenzy" drive has subsided. I was drawn to this hobby the first few years by the volumes of reading I immersed myself in; specifically, because the nexus of science and art in this hobby is so intriguing. I wish more hobbiests would similarly relax, and smell the mysis.

 

[DFason]

I have only been into reefing for a little over 5 years. One thing I would really like to see is a official linage website/database with all the "LE,SE,SP" name corals. I know we have reefarmers and a couple others but more of a official site that has who it started from, who purchased from who and the trickle down effect (maybe even a little story behind it) . Like many others say, "Who did you get this from?" Well look at the My Miami frag that so many people had this and that until the main guy came on here.

I'll admit I get wrapped up in the name brand corals sometimes, but some really do look amazing and I would love a real background. I think it would ease my mind before a local reefer lies to me and says he got it straight from Steve Tyree. :)

One thing that the reefing world does very well is not come out with new products EVERY year to de-value there older stuff. I work in an industry were they come out with new gear every 9-12 months and KILLS the value of older gear. Imagine paying 400 for a Vortech only to sell it for >200$?

Just my take, like I said I still consider myself new to the hobby but it sure is awesome!

-Dave

 

[Stray32]

I have a problem with how powerful two little letters have become...."LE"

Slap an LE in front of the name of a coral and the price doubles or triples. To someone that doesn't know very much about this hobby, I could probably post LE Pink Xenia on craigslist for $20/stalk and it would sell in a week or less. There are a fair number of people that don't participate in these forums or keep up with fair market prices for coral, and they are the ones that I worry about.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

We, mostly reefers, are to be blamed for all this price hike and the biggest market being the USA and also Europe as well.
Coral collectors are getting really smart and they're collecting the "much sought after ,multi-colored corals and fish" and setting them aside specifically for the American and European market knowing well that they can sell them for much, much more money (to the Buyers) and plus all payments are paid in American dollars only. Everything from this designated shipment are super marked up too. On the other hand I really doubt the divers are paid well and most likely paid in their measly local currency as opposed to Yankee dollars .... :squigglemouth:
Unfortunately the availability of the internet is a more like a curse for us as they (coral collectors) are able to view online what's the "hottest hype/trend" of corals that we're into nowadays. They realised the (US & European) Buyers will more than likely raised the price of any multi-colored and so-called "extremely Rare" corals knowing really well that the Buyers will definitely sell these corals regardless ... at any exorbitant prices asked!!! Ohh yeah ... there are a lot of reefers who would pay arms and legs to own a "Rare" piece and then later on cut them into tiny frags and label it ... "One-of-A-Kind-Super-extremely-rare-never-to-be-found-again" coral for a "very reasonble" priced at $XXXXX amount of dollars :ooh:
Who's To Blame ... Reefers or Sellers or coral collectors???

Oh BTW .... these specialty coral collectors are mostly owned by foreigner owners and not the local folks. :sure:

Paul

 

[cbau45]

I think what does it for me are the people in the hobby solely for the reason of making money, and granted most of us genuinely enjoy the hobby but there are those out there that don't care if they take advantage of newbies or not. We hashed that one out already though so i'll move on. I agree that some pieces are worth the higher price tag given the time, energy, and expense to grow them. IMO high price tags on z's and p's seem a bit rediculous to me only because they are generally pretty easy to keep and spread well. Although some are faster than others, they do eventually spread and can be fragged easily. Usually there are trends that come and go with different coral groups, eventually the prices will come down. I just try to keep in mind that I was a newbie once and somebody helped me out and hooked me up with nice sized frags of good stuff. I like to return the favor. :wink: That's jut my opinion and two cents about it though.

 

[SDguy]

OK, so let’s talk about a few of the recurring topics…

1. I think “honesty” and “being taken advantage of” can really encompass the “LE” label, the recycling of a name on imposter corals, and just general scamming. Amanda mentions the use of forums such as these to spread the word about these things. I think that’s a powerful tool. And while I agree that not everyone has no life like me with hours to kill on these forums :) a simple Google search of a coral name or phrase will quickly jump you to many of these threads. I also don’t buy it that all newbs will necessarily jump on something just because it is labeled as LE. We have to be savvy consumers here. A little research can go a long way. So what other solutions are there? Do we cry foul out in public when we see a wrong? I know plenty goes on behind the scenes (PM’s), but how does that help the general reefing public?

2. Prices. Well, unfortunately, I think this is a subjective topic. Everyone lives in their own tax bracket, and knows what they are comfortable with. I think the only real solution here, as said by several people already, is to talk with your wallet. If you feel prices are too high, don’t throw down the money, and have some patience. Have your friends do the same. While I agree prices can be ridiculous sometimes, I also have to plays devil’s advocate. Sometimes people want it all… the newest coral; the prettiest, shiniest, most elusive coral. And they want it now. And they want the whole colony, and they want to pay only 2x what the seller paid for it. Well, no offense, but I think that’s a bit pie in the sky :)

3. Enjoyment of the hobby as a hobby. This is a big one for me. Ask any friend that knows me and they will tell you how I feel about people that turn their hobby into their livelihood. I think it changes you. You can think and say all you want that it doesn’t, but it does, IMO. Personally speaking, I only had one, ONE, sought after pricy coral, and it totally changed my attitude about my tank and the hobby. It was just unpleasant, overall. I can’t even imagine how it would affect me to have a big frag tank full of desirable corals to deal with. The change this causes in some people clearly leads to the other issues mentioned in this thread. It also makes you dislike the hobby, as a "hobby", IMO/E.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

I only know of ONE reefer buddy where we do strictly exchange corals for corals only!! If only there's more of "him" out there ... :angel:

Paul

 

[Psychographic]

For the most part, I would like to see the snobbery and attitude of a lot of people disapear. I have overheard many conversations where noobies or people with different tastes are shunned and even mocked because they don't keep high end corals or equipment.

So what if someones tank is full of Leathers, Zoanthids and Mushrooms, does that make them any less of a hobbiest because that is their preferance? I can say I've seen more softy tanks that look way better than collectors tanks which don't look like display tanks, but rather frag tanks.

You own a Deltec, well good for you, just don't look down on someone else for not spending as much as you on equipment, believe it or not, that does'nt make you any better than the next guy.

I would also like to see people get credit for their willingness to actually help someone, be it giving advise or actually physically helping, rather than get credit for selling exotic pieces and posting pics of them. Sometimes I think these pics get posted to create interest in purchases. I love seeing these pics as much as the next guy, but way too many individuals who go out of their way to help get lost in the shuffle, because all we remember at the end of the day is, "Wow, did you see the pic "Soandso" posted of the "whatever" today?

As for pricing, are the divers making more on these exotic pieces when they collect them? Not from what I've read and heard. So there is no reason for anyone else to gouge on the price. Just once I would love for someone to say, "Why am I charging so much for this, because I'm a greedy SOB", instedd of hiding behind the waiting list of people who want it, Ive got the only one, it grows slow or the myriad of other BS excuses.

Does anyone even remember what the idea behind fragging was? Was'nt it to share with others, was'nt it to spread the wealth to try to keep the LFS from gouging?

As for names and stealing names, I could give a rats butt, If you are buying a piece, get a pic or deal with someone you trust, STOP buying because of a name, buy what looks good to you.

In the end, I would like to appreciate one another because they have a common interest and stop making this a competion. To me Reef Snobbery is as stupid as the Harley rider who won't wave to a Honda rider, or the Streetrod guy who can't appreciate the work put into a well built Tuner car.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

Psychographic .... well said and stated!!! Couldn't agree more ....

Paul

 

[mpoletti]

BTW, I think I will be selling some ********super rare****** corals tomorrow, but if you want two, just let me know because I have extras :tongue:

Sorry Peter, I just wanted to say good morning and get the friday off with a smile :)

 

[SDguy]

Um, I think you had a typo...

********super rare LE*********

:snicker:


And good morning to you :D

 

[mpoletti]

LE's aren't super uber rare anymore since everyone with no imagination markets under that coined term :beat_brick:

I need some coffe, I have a feeling that this is going to be a great day :D

 

[SDguy]

Here is a question to you. When you look at you tank, (honestly) what is the first think you think of? Is it about money spent or money to be made? Or is it a feeling of content and interest in the beauty if a living organism. Neither answer is wrong! It is just your way of looking at the hobby!

That's really the key for me. Honestly, I get home from work, and literally go through my entire tank, looking to see how everyhting is doing, growing, and behaving before I even take the groceries out of my car LOL. Every time I look at my fish and my corals, they make me smile, for the pure enjoyment of successfully keeping/growing them, and making them color up as much as they can. I never want that to change, for me personally, anyways.

 

[mpoletti]

As for names and stealing names, I could give a rats butt, If you are buying a piece, get a pic or deal with someone you trust, STOP buying because of a name, buy what looks good to you.

Good stuff Psychographic. The one thing I would mention in regards to this comment is that proven corals with history also allow reefkeepers the prior knowledge of what a coral should look like and how it will react under similar paramters. That is one of teh largest benefits to purchasing a "named coral". Thus, the ethical problem and lack of integrity when a person knowingly sells a coral under a name when it is not the real deal.

This debate has gone on for years and will continue to go on. My opinion is that it comes down to a persons moral fiber. There are no sites for policeing, regulating or for registering corals. It is up to each individual; and unfortuanately, there will always be a group of people out there that spoil it for the majority.

 

[mpoletti]

That's really the key for me. Honestly, I get home from work, and literally go through my entire tank, looking to see how everyhting is doing, growing, and behaving before I even take the groceries out of my car LOL. Every time I look at my fish and my corals, they make me smile, for the pure enjoyment of successfully keeping/growing them, and making them color up as much as they can. I never want that to change, for me personally, anyways.

I used to do that as well Peter. The sad thing is that its past tense for me. I did get and break some branches off that were touching finally; I guess its a start ;)

 

[roscoe]

For the most part, I would like to see the snobbery and attitude of a lot of people disapear. I have overheard many conversations where noobies or people with different tastes are shunned and even mocked because they don't keep high end corals or equipment.

So what if someones tank is full of Leathers, Zoanthids and Mushrooms, does that make them any less of a hobbiest because that is their preferance? I can say I've seen more softy tanks that look way better than collectors tanks which don't look like display tanks, but rather frag tanks.

You own a Deltec, well good for you, just don't look down on someone else for not spending as much as you on equipment, believe it or not, that does'nt make you any better than the next guy.

I would also like to see people get credit for their willingness to actually help someone, be it giving advise or actually physically helping, rather than get credit for selling exotic pieces and posting pics of them. Sometimes I think these pics get posted to create interest in purchases. I love seeing these pics as much as the next guy, but way too many individuals who go out of their way to help get lost in the shuffle, because all we remember at the end of the day is, "Wow, did you see the pic "Soandso" posted of the "whatever" today?

As for pricing, are the divers making more on these exotic pieces when they collect them? Not from what I've read and heard. So there is no reason for anyone else to gouge on the price. Just once I would love for someone to say, "Why am I charging so much for this, because I'm a greedy SOB", instedd of hiding behind the waiting list of people who want it, Ive got the only one, it grows slow or the myriad of other BS excuses.

Does anyone even remember what the idea behind fragging was? Was'nt it to share with others, was'nt it to spread the wealth to try to keep the LFS from gouging?

As for names and stealing names, I could give a rats butt, If you are buying a piece, get a pic or deal with someone you trust, STOP buying because of a name, buy what looks good to you.

In the end, I would like to appreciate one another because they have a common interest and stop making this a competion. To me Reef Snobbery is as stupid as the Harley rider who won't wave to a Honda rider, or the Streetrod guy who can't appreciate the work put into a well built Tuner car.

OK, so let’s talk about a few of the recurring topics…

1. I think “honesty†and “being taken advantage of†can really encompass the “LE†label, the recycling of a name on imposter corals, and just general scamming. Amanda mentions the use of forums such as these to spread the word about these things. I think that’s a powerful tool. And while I agree that not everyone has no life like me with hours to kill on these forums :) a simple Google search of a coral name or phrase will quickly jump you to many of these threads. I also don’t buy it that all newbs will necessarily jump on something just because it is labeled as LE. We have to be savvy consumers here. A little research can go a long way. So what other solutions are there? Do we cry foul out in public when we see a wrong? I know plenty goes on behind the scenes (PM’s), but how does that help the general reefing public?

2. Prices. Well, unfortunately, I think this is a subjective topic. Everyone lives in their own tax bracket, and knows what they are comfortable with. I think the only real solution here, as said by several people already, is to talk with your wallet. If you feel prices are too high, don’t throw down the money, and have some patience. Have your friends do the same. While I agree prices can be ridiculous sometimes, I also have to plays devil’s advocate. Sometimes people want it all… the newest coral; the prettiest, shiniest, most elusive coral. And they want it now. And they want the whole colony, and they want to pay only 2x what the seller paid for it. Well, no offense, but I think that’s a bit pie in the sky :)

3. Enjoyment of the hobby as a hobby. This is a big one for me. Ask any friend that knows me and they will tell you how I feel about people that turn their hobby into their livelihood. I think it changes you. You can think and say all you want that it doesn’t, but it does, IMO. Personally speaking, I only had one, ONE, sought after pricy coral, and it totally changed my attitude about my tank and the hobby. It was just unpleasant, overall. I can’t even imagine how it would affect me to have a big frag tank full of desirable corals to deal with. The change this causes in some people clearly leads to the other issues mentioned in this thread. It also makes you dislike the hobby, as a "hobby", IMO/E.

I certainly agree with most of your sentiments, Ian. But, if I understood this portion of your statement, I would disagree. I think that looking at your system from the perspective of money spent, and especially money to be made, transforms a person from a true hobbiest to a merchant/vendor. I went through a brief phase, perhaps one out of my six years in the hobby, where I was actively seeking out LE=type pieces, and occasionally spending too much. I've finally found my roots again, leaving the tank alone and rarely purchasing any new additions. It's nice to simply ponder the tank with the family and relax again, like I did with my first 55 gallon mixed reef. There are a few corals I would like to add, but I am glad the "feeding-frenzy" drive has subsided. I was drawn to this hobby the first few years by the volumes of reading I immersed myself in; specifically, because the nexus of science and art in this hobby is so intriguing. I wish more hobbiests would similarly relax, and smell the mysis.

Very well put guys! As I stated in another thread. People have forgotten that this is a hobby. I honestly see some folks that does this because of the all mighty dollar not because they truly enjoy the hobby itself anymore. I'm sure at one point they did but they let themselves get lost in all the greed. They can claim that they are a serious collector all they want and don't want it to go to the wrong hands all they want. To me all that says is they are all about the money not for the passion they so call have for the hobby.

 

[mpoletti]

Very well put guys! As I stated in another thread. People have forgotten that this is a hobby. I honestly see some folks that does this because of the all mighty dollar not because they truly enjoy the hobby itself anymore. I'm sure at one point they did but they let themselves get lost in all the greed. They can claim that they are a serious collector all they want and don't want it to go to the wrong hands all they want. To me all that says is they are all about the money not for the passion they so call have for the hobby.

Me likey :)

 

[Psychographic]

what a coral should look like and how it will react under similar paramters.

I hope this does'nt throw this of subject, but would'nt any coral kept under the same conditions basically keep the same growth pattern and coloration?

 

[mpoletti]

I hope this does'nt throw this of subject, but would'nt any coral kept under the same conditions basically keep the same growth pattern and coloration?

Not really. You can have two types of Lokani lets say. One likes high light and one bleaches out with higher lighing. Also, there are some chalices that like high lighting and some that do better in the shade. Knowing the history up front helps in caring for your livestock.