What forms of iron are bioavailable?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so what I’m trying to look at is less my fish tank and more eventually Lake Erie. My fish tank is just what got me interested in the problem. My thought is why are the toxic algae a problem and what limiting reagents could be used to throttle them. We know excess phosphate from run off feeds them. We know there is already a ton of iron present but in what form and could that iron be activated or added to to dunk the phosphate. If we just had algae it would be a problem but less so. Getting there now...what if you could turn off the toxin production or minimize it. Now it’s less of an issue. There all cards on table. The prize is 10 million dollars. The iron connection has been proven by a Canadian university. They published in March last year. I found it during a lit search last week. So they beat me to the punch. What they did is not exactly what I had in mind but I’ll post the link in few after I cut the grass. I am less interested in the money and more in public health though it would be nice.

My advanced idea is a plasmid but yea not happening in a home lab.

Ferrocene is expensive toxic and of little use in this problem though an intersting topic by itself. It’s one thing to treat 300g and another to treat Lake Erie. I’m looking at marine for the moment as that is what I can grow. I gave to rent a boat to go get and learn to culture the freshwater varieties. Btw nasa flys a plane that tells them where to sample. I dont have that ability.

I very much enjoy these discussions. I hope the level of discussion is ok for this forum. I believe you don’t have to be a scientist to both learn and contribute. So if I’m annoying please tell me so.

http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2016/02/29/beating-blue-green-algae-with-iron/

Second read...not really modulating the toxin. Basically says run gfo on lake. But...they don’t deplete it entirely so they keep- the microculture in balance.

I’ll add one last item to this monster post. Saying make me a Star Trek transporter is a good idea and actually making one are very different animals so just because I want to shutdown the toxin doesn’t mean you can

I presume you've seen this article?

Evidence for phosphorus, nitrogen, and iron colimitation of phytoplankton communities in Lake Erie
https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.2007.52.1.0315

 

[kecked]

Not that exact one but similar. Yes I have a lot of work to do to make this work. I'm thinking the simple isn't going to fly. Need a way to turn off the toxin so why does it make it? Make it stop and you got what is needed..
Iron maybe maybe not. So far my tank went from dino hell to paradise by increasing P and N and following the recipe for competition. Didn't stop the dinos but mace them go dormant so to speak. Not sure the dino blue green analogy works here.

 

[mcarroll]

We know excess phosphate from run off feeds them.

It's not quite that simple....excess phosphate should actually most appreciated by them in their "autotrophic phase".

The problem is the ensuing eutrophication...

We know there is already a ton of iron present but in what form and could that iron be activated or added to to dunk the phosphate.

....we do know that the sediment is where the effects of eutriphoication begin....N and/or P (with C, of course) both "burn off" in a flash of growth, usually deoxygenating the substrate, and possible the water column as well. (extreme nutshell version of eutrophication)

From what I understand, anoxic sediments are key to freeing iron up for usage.

Need a way to turn off the toxin so why does it make it?

I haven't found any satisfactory papers to explain it, but my hunch is that they can't (or don't) shut off the photosynthetic gear just because N and/or P comes to be in short supply and they have had to resort to phagotrophy.

So my guess is that they have excess carbonaceous byproducts being generated and they need an outlet of some kind...they're eating a balanced C : N : P : etc diet so it's not going to be used/needed for growth. 2000 different species of dino, so there could be 2000 different "novel uses" for carbonaceous byproducts.

After all aragonite could be considered the very same way, as just another carbonaceous byproduct....Symbiodinium will secrete an aragonite "formation" even without a coral host.

There's gotta be a paper out there that's looked at this...still searching, so lemme know if anyone finds one.

 

[kecked]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vera_Huszar/publication/316207071_The_efficiency_of_combined_coagulant_and_ballast_to_remove_harmful_cyanobacterial_blooms_in_a_tropical_shallow_system/links/59df32c2aca27258f7d742d9/The-efficiency-of-combined-coagulant-and-ballast-to-remove-harmful-cyanobacterial-blooms-in-a-tropical-shallow-system.pdf

Note increased saxitoxin production with coagulants....make them mad they fight you.

http://www.ohiowea.org/docs/Track_01_1100_Optimizing_Chemical__Phosphorus_Removal.pdf

This use of poly aluminum chloride is interesting because it is effective to bring the level down to an equilibrium above zero. If tailored it could be an excellent control with a built in floor level. So thinking replace out gfo with a gac incorporating pac. Now you have organic control that also stripes excess p but leaves the right amount of it intact. Have to be engineered not to leach but at our ph should be ok. Fouling as anticoagulant would not be an issue as it is matrix bound and we can use existing reactors. I’d bet it is already there like say chemipure.

I bet we could reuse our gfo in our gardens along eithe the gac as a sweetener.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vera_Huszar/publication/316207071_The_efficiency_of_combined_coagulant_and_ballast_to_remove_harmful_cyanobacterial_blooms_in_a_tropical_shallow_system/links/59df32c2aca27258f7d742d9/The-efficiency-of-combined-coagulant-and-ballast-to-remove-harmful-cyanobacterial-blooms-in-a-tropical-shallow-system.pdf

Note increased saxitoxin production with coagulants....make them mad they fight you.

http://www.ohiowea.org/docs/Track_01_1100_Optimizing_Chemical__Phosphorus_Removal.pdf

This use of poly aluminum chloride is interesting because it is effective to bring the level down to an equilibrium above zero. If tailored it could be an excellent control with a built in floor level. So thinking replace out gfo with a gac incorporating pac. Now you have organic control that also stripes excess p but leaves the right amount of it intact. Have to be engineered not to leach but at our ph should be ok. Fouling as anticoagulant would not be an issue as it is matrix bound and we can use existing reactors. I’d bet it is already there like say chemipure.

I bet we could reuse our gfo in our gardens along either the gac as a sweetener.

I only got to slide 4 before I saw a slide that was wrong:

"There is no airborne (gaseous) form of phosphorus"

Uh, wrong. I've made them myself. Phosphine (PH3) is one that is widely used.

FWIW, all binders work they way they describe in terms of binding much less at lower phosphate values. It's not a special attribute of aluminum.

 

[mcarroll]

http://www.ohiowea.org/docs/Track_01_1100_Optimizing_Chemical__Phosphorus_Removal.pdf

I only got to slide 4 before I saw a slide that was wrong:

"There is no airborne (gaseous) form of phosphorus"

Uh, wrong.

Very true – and I don't think I'd ever heard of phosphene before. Thanks!

In context of the slide and presentation though?

Fundamental Principle of Phosphorus Removal

There is no airborne (gaseous) form of phosphorus

I read this as there being no way to off-gas phosphorus, which seems non-controvertial.

But the next slide is the kicker....wish I knew what the discusion that goes with this was like, but I still doubt they brought up phosphene...

Fundamental Principle of Phosphorus Removal

There is no airborne (gaseous) form of phosphorus

The exception

(Emphasis theirs. I don't understand the significance to "the exception" of the picture they included ...apparently a vat at a wastewater treatment facility?)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

(Emphasis theirs. I don't understand the significance to "the exception" of the picture they included ...apparently a vat at a wastewater treatment facility?)

I'm not sure, but they may have been referring to droplets spattering into the air from the sprayer they show. It's often hard to interpret a presentation without the words being spoken.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Phosphine is low but often not none:

Simultaneous Monitoring of Phosphine and of Phosphorus Species in Taihu Lake Sediments and Phosphine Emission from Lake Sediments
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10533-005-5422-6

Phosphine (PH3) was monitored in the Taihu Lake in China by a GC/NPD method, coupled with cryo-trapping enrichment technology. Results showed that PH3 was universally detected in sediments, lake water and atmosphere of the Taihu Lake area.

 

[kecked]

Ignore everything but the use of poly alum chloride as a P scavenge that has a bottom. Ie it leaves a little at a threshold lower level. Hence you can’t strip it to zero. That’s a nice thing. I had thought of Coagulation as a treatment but this caught my eye. Self regulating P strip. With with gac as a media.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ignore everything but the use of poly alum chloride as a P scavenge that has a bottom. Ie it leaves a little at a threshold lower level. Hence you can’t strip it to zero. That’s a nice thing. I had thought of Coagulation as a treatment but this caught my eye. Self regulating P strip. With with gac as a media.

I don't think it will work out that way, and I'm not seeing what evidence you are pointing to in the link to that suggests you cannot drive phosphate too low with aluminum.

Slide 14 does not show that. It just shows the kinetics of binding at a particular dose.

 

[kecked]

Well I just tried it and your right. Drove in the ground to none detect with ease. Would be amazing if it worked that way. I did try something that did work earlier. Pukani rock. Just let it leech out into the tank. Dosing is the real answer. Magic ratio.

Ps I use phosphine for making semiconductors at work. Nasty stuff.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ps I use phosphine for making semiconductors at work. Nasty stuff.

Definitely. I think it was made as a byproduct in something I was doing and felt compelled to warn readers of the published paper about the possible tox risk.

 

[mcarroll]

Phosphine is low but often not none:

Simultaneous Monitoring of Phosphine and of Phosphorus Species in Taihu Lake Sediments and Phosphine Emission from Lake Sediments
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10533-005-5422-6

Phosphine (PH3) was monitored in the Taihu Lake in China by a GC/NPD method, coupled with cryo-trapping enrichment technology. Results showed that PH3 was universally detected in sediments, lake water and atmosphere of the Taihu Lake area.

So it seems like wetlands and swamps are thought to be the main producers of phosphine in the atmosphere....and that phosphine is considered an input to the oceans.

Microbial Ecology of the Oceans has a blurb available online (p384, notes with Fig 10.2) that says:
"...elemental phosphorus (P) and phosphine gas (PH3) are thought not to occur in marine environments."

(There aren't a lot of relevant docs out there that are available in PDF!!)

I guess it's a good thing (for us) since it's so toxic! Apparently used as a ship-board fumigant, among the other uses already mentioned! Yuk!