What is "Great Success"?

Gareth elliott

Read, Tinker, Fail, Learn
View Badges
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
5,468
Reaction score
6,935
Location
NJ
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I mean, if we quarantine for 72 days which is the prescribed time frame, the fish may lose it's immunity that it has from the sea.
The stuff we normally eat and breathe is different from the bacteria and pathogens a fish needs to stay immune. We don't generally eat live prey any longer although at one time we did. I am sure we lost our ability to process all those pathogens with our modern diet which is why every time I go to Mexico I get sick, but the Mexican people don't. And in the Year I spent in Nam I took an anti Malaria pill every day,but the local people did not have to. It is also the reason our POWs in Nam got malaria. We have no natural immunity to it because we are never in contact with it

I will keep my not malaria resistant existence. The semi-immunity of endemic populations requires repeated malaria infections. By age 5 if the child survives multiple infections they usually acquire this semi-immunity. But 70% of malaria deaths are children under the age of 5, that was over 700,000 in 2008. (Has significantly dropped since 2010 to 400,000 total deaths thanks to better controls, like mosquito control and bed nets).

Anthropologically, we have cooked our food for a very long time, fire first appears with H. errectus 1.4 mya. Though the first concrete evidence of cooking is .5mya. There also only 6000 hominid fossils actually discovered thus far, so this isnt evidence we havent cooked longer. From a dentition analysis we have at least chopped our meat since 3 mya. The lack of resistance to a regional E. coli population(primary cause of TD) has more to do with its large variation from population to population, location to location.

Long way of saying perhaps there are multiple ways of giving a healthy life to our fish. We have eliminated rinderpest from the world, does this make livestock less healthy since they will never be exposed to a now dead disease? If i never introduce ich to my tank are they less likely to live a long life, if i provide them a healthy fulfilling captive environment?
 

Newb73

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
1,281
Reaction score
1,004
Location
Southeast
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I will keep my not malaria resistant existence. The semi-immunity of endemic populations requires repeated malaria infections. By age 5 if the child survives multiple infections they usually acquire this semi-immunity. But 70% of malaria deaths are children under the age of 5, that was over 700,000 in 2008. (Has significantly dropped since 2010 to 400,000 total deaths thanks to better controls, like mosquito control and bed nets).

Anthropologically, we have cooked our food for a very long time, fire first appears with H. errectus 1.4 mya. Though the first concrete evidence of cooking is .5mya. There also only 6000 hominid fossils actually discovered thus far, so this isnt evidence we havent cooked longer. From a dentition analysis we have at least chopped our meat since 3 mya. The lack of resistance to a regional E. coli population(primary cause of TD) has more to do with its large variation from population to population, location to location.

Long way of saying perhaps there are multiple ways of giving a healthy life to our fish. We have eliminated rinderpest from the world, does this make livestock less healthy since they will never be exposed to a now dead disease? If i never introduce ich to my tank are they less likely to live a long life, if i provide them a healthy fulfilling captive environment?
To be fair, travelers diarrhea is usually self limiting and you do build resistance. I travel for my job all over the US and used to get it periodically but haven't had it in over a decade.

The current strain of Hong Kong flu while deadly is greatly reduced in its virulence due to the 69 outbreak. That out break killed over a million world wide and i believe 10s of thousands in the US but since it was imcorporated into a vaccine the following year and has been around a while in tiny pockets since then, even the average person, even one who hasnt had a vaccine specifically for THAT strain will have some ability to survive it and its virulence is dimenished. You can read about that on medscape.

If you reintroduced polio or bubonic plague in epidemic proportions now that no one has really had exposures or vaccines, it would be DEVASTATING.

The thing about ich/velvet is that it doesn't take much to get an accidental exposure. One drop of water can do it. I am not saying don't QT, but if other measures such as proper nutrition, water quality and emergency procedures are not in place, it is a ticking time bomb.

The increase in allergies and infections/sepsis in children is thought by many in academic circles to be from children not playing outside, not being exposed to enough allergens and bacteria, and way too much exposure to abx soaps etc. Which has effectively crippled their immune system and made them SICKER.

I believe some of those lessons like apply to keeping fish in a sterile bubble.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
18,142
Reaction score
62,082
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Make sure you post the downfalls of those colonies when or if it happens. I read a lot of Paul's threads and I like his tank but appreciation of others methods is not a strong suit and clouded by sarcasm.

DSC reef, you are correct, I really need to curb my sarcasm. It isn't really sarcasm, just the way I talk, or write. There are many reefs on here that I am jealous of and I will try to re phrase my writing so it doesn't sound like sarcasm. I am old, hard headed, set in my ways and have PTSD so sometimes I come off as sarcastic. My wife points that out to ma a lot. But the people who know me know that I don't mean it, I just have a weird way of talking.

But I am glad you pointed that out to me as I have been told that before. A couple of times as a matter of fact. :confused:

As for success being in the eye of the beholder, that is correct, all the tanks on here, just for the fact they are alive have success. But this thread is not about success. It is about when people say they have "Great Success" with something which IMO is different.
I feel we should limit our using "Great Success" like I need to limit my sarcasm for when something is the best it can be.
Like the example I posted of having baby fish, they grow up, lay eggs and die of old age.
Just keeping a fish for a few years is not great, although it can be considered a success.

I think I got through that with no sarcasm, at least I think I did. I tried very hard not to say anything about Paris Hilton, DSBs, My tank, Jiboni's, railroad cars or anything except fish. :p

DSC, thank you again for telling me that. And I would appreciate it if anyone would let me know if I start to say things that may offend anyone as that is not my purpose at all. I have very thick skin and you can't offend me, especially on a fish site. :D

Here is one of my many failures. When my tank looked like a produce stand and people were ringing my bell to buy produce. This was not a great success. Luckily, it cleared up.

 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,859
Reaction score
21,990
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I mean, if we quarantine for 72 days which is the prescribed time frame, the fish may lose it's immunity that it has from the sea.
The stuff we normally eat and breathe is different from the bacteria and pathogens a fish needs to stay immune. We don't generally eat live prey any longer although at one time we did. I am sure we lost our ability to process all those pathogens with our modern diet which is why every time I go to Mexico I get sick, but the Mexican people don't. And in the Year I spent in Nam I took an anti Malaria pill every day,but the local people did not have to. It is also the reason our POWs in Nam got malaria. We have no natural immunity to it because we are never in contact with it

OH - I did not understand what you meant by quarantine - (I get your point - you are saying leaving a tank 'fallow' will remove the parasites)

Yes - about malaria - there is some immunity amongst the local population. That immunity can be lost if they are not reexposed.

As far as what people eat - the life expectancy of people that ate live prey was much less than currently. Infections killed millions of people yearly - because there were no antibiotics (they still do). Parasites killed people as well. Rest assured - there are plenty of bacteria in the food we eat currently.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,859
Reaction score
21,990
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I will keep my not malaria resistant existence. The semi-immunity of endemic populations requires repeated malaria infections. By age 5 if the child survives multiple infections they usually acquire this semi-immunity. But 70% of malaria deaths are children under the age of 5, that was over 700,000 in 2008. (Has significantly dropped since 2010 to 400,000 total deaths thanks to better controls, like mosquito control and bed nets).

Long way of saying perhaps there are multiple ways of giving a healthy life to our fish. We have eliminated rinderpest from the world, does this make livestock less healthy since they will never be exposed to a now dead disease? If i never introduce ich to my tank are they less likely to live a long life, if i provide them a healthy fulfilling captive environment?

And the WHO has a goal of eliminating malaria - much like trying to eliminate rinderpest. I agree - there is no benefit that I see to keeping 'pathogens' in the environment. Of course there are millions of bacteria that are not pathogens to humans. Many are beneficial.

I think its possible to have great success with a quarantined tank if you are careful with dosing, medication for new arrivals. I think it is difficult for the 'average person' to do this without losing fish. I just dont see a problem having a tank that is ich and velvet free. If you look at the article I posted on bacteria in the open reef vs. aquarium, it clearly states that 'bacteria' quickly populate a sterile tank - and that you can add bacteria to accomplish this as well (not just nitrifying bacteria). Interesting fact they pointed out was that if you add bacteria to a 'sterile', ie. new tank with dead rock, assuming the bacteria have a food source, they quickly populate to the point at which their population is limited by nutrients. If you add bacteria to an 'established tank', the newly added strains are unlikely to survive/thrive.

I guess I've come to the decision that its possible to have great success in an 'ich managed tank' if you don't add new fish - once the tank is 'stable' and disease free. Following that, every time you add a fish there is a risk of the new fish getting ich (from the tank) or the old fish in the tank getting a new strain of ich to which they are not immune.
 

Newb73

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
1,281
Reaction score
1,004
Location
Southeast
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
DSC reef, you are correct, I really need to curb my sarcasm.


Nonsense.

R2R wouldn't be R2R if we didn't have Pauls Sarcasm and Randy telling us when we are wrong about reef chemistry.

To me, those two things are R2Rs charm.
 

DSC reef

Coral wasted
View Badges
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
15,906
Reaction score
50,359
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Nonsense.

R2R wouldn't be R2R if we didn't have Pauls Sarcasm and Randy telling us when we are wrong about reef chemistry.

To me, those two things are R2Rs charm.
Paul understood where I was coming from and I was just giving an opinion, please don't take it out of context. In no way did I mention Paul needs to stop being sarcastic, I enjoy many posts by paul.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
18,142
Reaction score
62,082
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
To me, those two things are R2Rs charm.

Paul understood where I was coming from and I was just giving an opinion, please don't take it out of context. In no way did I mention Paul needs to stop being sarcastic, I enjoy many posts by paul.

The only things I am going to talk about are fish, sea weed, parasites and occasionally, onions. And I will start writing in Swaleli so no one knows if it is sarcastic or not. No disrespect to Swahily people as many of them read my posts. :eek:

I can't make everyone happy, just hopefully my wife. :cool:
 

hart24601

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
6,579
Reaction score
6,635
Location
Iowa
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
IMO, this is a hobby. Success means you enjoy it. Failure means you didn't. :)

I was just going to post the same thing! Being happy with the hobby is success to me. I mean we are forcing fish and coral to live in a glass cages in our living room. It's hard to get on a soapbox about success.

Now if someone wants to become a vendor that is great and they might measure success by the hobby paying for itself (perhaps even making money) or winning some sort of contest, but for most people - just enjoy it.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
18,142
Reaction score
62,082
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
but for most people - just enjoy it.

I really hate it, I have hated it since the 60s. Can't stand it. I am sitting here right now trying to think of a disease I would rather have than be in this hobby. Irratibable bowel syndrome. Thats it, I would rather have irratable bowel syndrome than be in this hobby. :eek:
 
Last edited:

hart24601

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
6,579
Reaction score
6,635
Location
Iowa
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I really hate it, I have hated it since the 60s. Can't stand it. I am sitting here right now trying to think of a disease I would rather have than be in this hobby. Irratibable bowel syndrome. Thats it, I would rather have irratable bowel syndrome syndrome than be in this hobby. :eek:

You probably do hate it but love posting online to cause a stir. So it's indirect love.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
18,142
Reaction score
62,082
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
What stir? :rolleyes::cool:
 

When to mix up fish meal: When was the last time you tried a different brand of food for your reef?

  • I regularly change the food that I feed to the tank.

    Votes: 44 21.7%
  • I occasionally change the food that I feed to the tank.

    Votes: 70 34.5%
  • I rarely change the food that I feed to the tank.

    Votes: 66 32.5%
  • I never change the food that I feed to the tank.

    Votes: 19 9.4%
  • Other.

    Votes: 4 2.0%
Back
Top