What type of drain is this?

[dnott3]

This is going to be my first tank with a sump. Ive done some research but havent seen a drain that looks like this.
My questions are:
1. What type of drain is this?
2. Is it reliable? What possible problems could come up with this type of drain?
3. Any suggestions on improving the drain?

Also how can I convert this return into more of a loc line style output?

 

[twentyleagues]

That would be closest to a durso. But honestly with the 90 at the top like that its not that either. Clogging is the issue you want to watch out for. If it clogs youll have a flood. It would be easy to make it a true durso but the same issues will be present, possibly lessened. I ran tanks with dursos for a long time. Noise is also an issue. They work fine as long as no snails or crabs can get in the pipe and there are ways of stopping that, algal growth is another concern keep the area dark put a lid or something to block the light.

 

[dnott3]

The way the tank is made it should prevent larger critters from getting into the overflow, key word should. I can definitely put a something over it to stop the algae growth. That wasnt something i thought about.

 

[mcarroll]

My questions are:
1. What type of drain is this?
2. Is it reliable? What possible problems could come up with this type of drain?
3. Any suggestions on improving the drain?

Also how can I convert this return into more of a loc line style output?

Cleverly hiding 5 questions behind three numbers!! Gonna have to charge you for all five. ;)

1. A regular drain with a standpipe. A little odd that the bulkhead is in the back of the tank, but that's coincidence...doesn't affect performance. Missing most of the geegaws folks like to add to "feel better" about it....Maggy Muffler, Durso (which is similar to yours), etc. Those were mostly for quieting drains down when folks used their return pumps for tank flow – they'd be running their drain lines near heir theoretical max. throughput, which causes air to get drawn into the flow. All that was before modern powerheads, so is mostly irrelevant now.....sump flow is usually from 1x-5x the display size nowadays, which is what all those drains were spec'd for in the first place.

2a. Yes. Powered by gravity.

2b. Same as with any drain. If the opening becomes blocked, it won't work. This is one of the main reasons for using a weir around the drain – the teeth keep out anything too large to fit in the drain.

3. People like to be fearful and drill redundant drain holes until they feel better. Good planning is a better route. For starters, don't light up your weirs. Then algae won't grow and snails won't even be tempted to go there. This is good policy.

(4.) You'd have to replace that (outlet) bulkhead at the top with a regular (threaded) bulkhead and then buy some LocLine. IMO I like the outlet as-is – very non-intrusive!! Is this a small tank where that matters a lot, or a large tank where it doesn't really matter?

 

[dnott3]

My questions are:
1. What type of drain is this?
2. Is it reliable? What possible problems could come up with this type of drain?
3. Any suggestions on improving the drain?

Also how can I convert this return into more of a loc line style output?

Cleverly hiding 5 questions behind three numbers!! Gonna have to charge you for all five. ;)

1. A regular drain with a standpipe. A little odd that the bulkhead is in the back of the tank, but that's coincidence...doesn't affect performance. Missing most of the geegaws folks like to add to "feel better" about it....Maggy Muffler, Durso (which is similar to yours), etc. Those were mostly for quieting drains down when folks used their return pumps for tank flow – they'd be running their drain lines near heir theoretical max. throughput, which causes air to get drawn into the flow. All that was before modern powerheads, so is mostly irrelevant now.....sump flow is usually from 1x-5x the display size nowadays, which is what all those drains were spec'd for in the first place.

2a. Yes. Powered by gravity.

2b. Same as with any drain. If the opening becomes blocked, it won't work. This is one of the main reasons for using a weir around the drain – the teeth keep out anything too large to fit in the drain.

3. People like to be fearful and drill redundant drain holes until they feel better. Good planning is a better route. For starters, don't light up your weirs. Then algae won't grow and snails won't even be tempted to go there. This is good policy.

(4.) You'd have to replace that (outlet) bulkhead at the top with a regular (threaded) bulkhead and then buy some LocLine. IMO I like the outlet as-is – very non-intrusive!! Is this a small tank where that matters a lot, or a large tank where it doesn't really matter?

Yep could've added more numbers, busted!!

Would you change it to a true durso or just leave it? It does need to be quiet since it's in our jome office.

The tank is a 120 gallon with the standard 4x2x2 dimensions.

 

[mcarroll]

Leave it, IMO.

Low(er) flow is the key to silent drains – none of the gimmicks work all that well.

Target <50% usage......1" gravity drains are rated up to 600 GPH, so target more like 300 gph. Google for more drain sizes.

 

[dnott3]

With a lower flow through the drain does that mean my return pump can be sized accordingly?

 

[mcarroll]

With a lower flow through the drain does that mean my return pump can be sized accordingly?

Correct! Peg your target flow rate on the pump's flow curve, and make your selection!

(Tell us about your plumbing if you want help. Plumbing diameter and total length of plumbing are the biggest factors in most situations.)

 

[areefer01]

Cleverly hiding 5 questions behind three numbers!! Gonna have to charge you for all five. ;)

1. A regular drain with a standpipe. A little odd that the bulkhead is in the back of the tank, but that's coincidence...doesn't affect performance. Missing most of the geegaws folks like to add to "feel better" about it....Maggy Muffler, Durso (which is similar to yours), etc. Those were mostly for quieting drains down when folks used their return pumps for tank flow – they'd be running their drain lines near heir theoretical max. throughput, which causes air to get drawn into the flow. All that was before modern powerheads, so is mostly irrelevant now.....sump flow is usually from 1x-5x the display size nowadays, which is what all those drains were spec'd for in the first place.

2a. Yes. Powered by gravity.

2b. Same as with any drain. If the opening becomes blocked, it won't work. This is one of the main reasons for using a weir around the drain – the teeth keep out anything too large to fit in the drain.

3. People like to be fearful and drill redundant drain holes until they feel better. Good planning is a better route. For starters, don't light up your weirs. Then algae won't grow and snails won't even be tempted to go there. This is good policy.

(4.) You'd have to replace that (outlet) bulkhead at the top with a regular (threaded) bulkhead and then buy some LocLine. IMO I like the outlet as-is – very non-intrusive!! Is this a small tank where that matters a lot, or a large tank where it doesn't really matter?

You should have added a 5th, and not one to drink... Safety. That is not a drain I would use and then go on a vacation...

 

[dnott3]

Honestly haven't gotten to how i want to plumb it yet. I'm trying to get this set up as best as possible for me so I don't have to mess with anything once i get it all set up. Trying to take my time with this upgrade going from a 40 breeder to this

 

[dnott3]

Cleverly hiding 5 questions behind three numbers!! Gonna have to charge you for all five. ;)

1. A regular drain with a standpipe. A little odd that the bulkhead is in the back of the tank, but that's coincidence...doesn't affect performance. Missing most of the geegaws folks like to add to "feel better" about it....Maggy Muffler, Durso (which is similar to yours), etc. Those were mostly for quieting drains down when folks used their return pumps for tank flow – they'd be running their drain lines near heir theoretical max. throughput, which causes air to get drawn into the flow. All that was before modern powerheads, so is mostly irrelevant now.....sump flow is usually from 1x-5x the display size nowadays, which is what all those drains were spec'd for in the first place.

2a. Yes. Powered by gravity.

2b. Same as with any drain. If the opening becomes blocked, it won't work. This is one of the main reasons for using a weir around the drain – the teeth keep out anything too large to fit in the drain.

3. People like to be fearful and drill redundant drain holes until they feel better. Good planning is a better route. For starters, don't light up your weirs. Then algae won't grow and snails won't even be tempted to go there. This is good policy.

(4.) You'd have to replace that (outlet) bulkhead at the top with a regular (threaded) bulkhead and then buy some LocLine. IMO I like the outlet as-is – very non-intrusive!! Is this a small tank where that matters a lot, or a large tank where it doesn't really matter?

You should have added a 5th, and not one to drink... Safety. That is not a drain I would use and then go on a vacation...

What is a drain that you would use? Im open to all opinions since i have no experience with any of them

 

[mcarroll]

IMO it's fine as-is.

Maybe adding a screen wouldn't hurt since it's <$5 and doesn't require any real changes. :)
(e.g...)
https://lifegardaquatics.com/products/1-fit-low-profile-strainer?variant=32739137061002https://lifegardaquatics.com/collections/bulkheads-aquatics/products/1-2-fit-suction-screen
And as I mentioned before, don't light up your drains (this might take special effort, depending on your lighting) so algae won't grow on them and snails will not be attracted.

 

[areefer01]

What is a drain that you would use? Im open to all opinions since i have no experience with any of them

I did not mean to come across snarky or mean - sorry if I did.

I feel the answer is a bit of a personal opinion and/or biase. I've used both a Durso and currently a Bean Animal overflow. I have found that the Bean Animal is the safest and most quiet when setup properly. Not all tanks come pre-drilled to support either so one may not have a option to install it.

The reason for my personal preference is that I found the Durso to generate more noise and needed more frequent cleaning. Had gurgling noise. That could be due to my installation or not, not really sure. With my current display I moved over to the BA design and have been happy. In fact so much that I'll be running another one on the upgrade.

I do not like a single overflow, or drain, for a few reasons and why I mentioned safety.

There is no backup. Durso and Bean Animal has a secondary or even a third draid that will be used in the case of an emergency.

Emergency can be blockage due to debris, animal such as a snail, internal build up such as vermetid snails, aiptasia and so forth.

Teeth - the overflow box has teeth which restrict flow. If one of those slots / teeth gets blocked x percent reduction in flow happens. If 2 teeth, or 3 happen you now lost more. This is somewhat related to the overflow, any overflow even Durso and BA, but mentioned it as it should be mentioned. Water from display to overflow to sump is a critical path in my opinion.

TL; DR - short answer is that it is a single point of failure. Sort of like trying to fly a single engine aircraft over the Atlantic. If it fails, well, you are in trouble.

Note: Durso - 2 stand pipes, primary, secondary.
Note: Bean Animal - 3 stand pipes. Primary, secondary, and emergency

 

[dnott3]

What is a drain that you would use? Im open to all opinions since i have no experience with any of them

I did not mean to come across snarky or mean - sorry if I did.

I feel the answer is a bit of a personal opinion and/or biase. I've used both a Durso and currently a Bean Animal overflow. I have found that the Bean Animal is the safest and most quiet when setup properly. Not all tanks come pre-drilled to support either so one may not have a option to install it.

The reason for my personal preference is that I found the Durso to generate more noise and needed more frequent cleaning. Had gurgling noise. That could be due to my installation or not, not really sure. With my current display I moved over to the BA design and have been happy. In fact so much that I'll be running another one on the upgrade.

I do not like a single overflow, or drain, for a few reasons and why I mentioned safety.

There is no backup. Durso and Bean Animal has a secondary or even a third draid that will be used in the case of an emergency.

Emergency can be blockage due to debris, animal such as a snail, internal build up such as vermetid snails, aiptasia and so forth.

Teeth - the overflow box has teeth which restrict flow. If one of those slots / teeth gets blocked x percent reduction in flow happens. If 2 teeth, or 3 happen you now lost more. This is somewhat related to the overflow, any overflow even Durso and BA, but mentioned it as it should be mentioned. Water from display to overflow to sump is a critical path in my opinion.

TL; DR - short answer is that it is a single point of failure. Sort of like trying to fly a single engine aircraft over the Atlantic. If it fails, well, you are in trouble.

Note: Durso - 2 stand pipes, primary, secondary.
Note: Bean Animal - 3 stand pipes. Primary, secondary, and emergency

I didn't take it that way your good!

I see the worry about having only 1 drain if something were to block/reduce flow. I feel like there isn't a great way to add an emergency drain with the way it is installed now. Maybe there is and I'm just not being creative enough in my thinking

 

[mcarroll]

I feel like there isn't a great way to add an emergency drain with the way it is installed now. Maybe there is and I'm just not being creative enough in my thinking

The concern is 99% theoretical, so don't spend too much energy worrying. :)

What is the emergency drain actually protecting against? Most folks can't answer that question with anything that's likely to happen, only theoretical faults. A snail will cover the whole drain opening??? Why would it be that precise? Why would it be that large? Why not use an intake screen? It's just an untenable worry. (And worry is a misuse of our imagination!)

Anyway, the only legit reason for concern is when someone is running the drains >50% leaving the drain system with no margin for error. Having no margin for error is not good design. But creating that condition of no margin is also completely unnecessary. (Especially in modern tanks thanks to propellor-based powerheads! Tunze's 6000, to be specific....the grandfather of them all.)

So as long as you design the tank to work as intended (including drains running at <50%), your risk factor drops to normal. :)

People do not normally have catastrophic drain clogs with any frequency as you can tell from reading online. This has been true since before the "BeanAnimal" overflow was conceived....and was only a fear brought about by folks purposefully driving throughput on their drains up close to 100%. Bad design, but folks considered it "necessary" at the time, so they made adjustments in attempt to compensate for their bad design.

It would be interesting if there was a way to know how many floods had been prevented by excessive drain designs.....of course we can't know, but my guess based on history is that the number is close zero.


Keep your thinking cap on! Don't let worries take over. :)

 

[twentyleagues]

I did not mean to come across snarky or mean - sorry if I did.

I feel the answer is a bit of a personal opinion and/or biase. I've used both a Durso and currently a Bean Animal overflow. I have found that the Bean Animal is the safest and most quiet when setup properly. Not all tanks come pre-drilled to support either so one may not have a option to install it.

The reason for my personal preference is that I found the Durso to generate more noise and needed more frequent cleaning. Had gurgling noise. That could be due to my installation or not, not really sure. With my current display I moved over to the BA design and have been happy. In fact so much that I'll be running another one on the upgrade.

I do not like a single overflow, or drain, for a few reasons and why I mentioned safety.

There is no backup. Durso and Bean Animal has a secondary or even a third draid that will be used in the case of an emergency.

Emergency can be blockage due to debris, animal such as a snail, internal build up such as vermetid snails, aiptasia and so forth.

Teeth - the overflow box has teeth which restrict flow. If one of those slots / teeth gets blocked x percent reduction in flow happens. If 2 teeth, or 3 happen you now lost more. This is somewhat related to the overflow, any overflow even Durso and BA, but mentioned it as it should be mentioned. Water from display to overflow to sump is a critical path in my opinion.

TL; DR - short answer is that it is a single point of failure. Sort of like trying to fly a single engine aircraft over the Atlantic. If it fails, well, you are in trouble.

Note: Durso - 2 stand pipes, primary, secondary.
Note: Bean Animal - 3 stand pipes. Primary, secondary, and emergency

I think you are thinking of a herbie drain when you are saying durso. Durso is a single drain no emergency drain. Both my tanks are factory drilled with two holes behind the weirs one for a drain and one for a return. I have the return holes for the emergency drains and send the return over the back of the tank. Lucky for me they didnt down size the return holes both are 1". So my setups are herbie now. I am a big fan of bean animal style as well. Durso works fine as that is how I had my 180g when I first got it, I left it factory. As @mcarroll says lower flow takes out most of the noise but not all and you dont need or really want 40x flow through the sump anyway. Turning the 180g into a herbie eliminated all the noise, you could hear a little trickle of water in the pipes sometimes but honestly with the tv on you could not hear it. Sump was in the basement which allowed it to be even more quiet. The tank was behind the couch in the living room if that gives you an idea of the need for sound deadening especially being married at the time.

 

[areefer01]

I think you are thinking of a herbie drain when you are saying durso. Durso is a single drain no emergency drain. Both my tanks are factory drilled with two holes behind the weirs one for a drain and one for a return. I have the return holes for the emergency drains and send the return over the back of the tank. Lucky for me they didnt down size the return holes both are 1". So my setups are herbie now. I am a big fan of bean animal style as well. Durso works fine as that is how I had my 180g when I first got it, I left it factory. As @mcarroll says lower flow takes out most of the noise but not all and you dont need or really want 40x flow through the sump anyway. Turning the 180g into a herbie eliminated all the noise, you could hear a little trickle of water in the pipes sometimes but honestly with the tv on you could not hear it. Sump was in the basement which allowed it to be even more quiet. The tank was behind the couch in the living room if that gives you an idea of the need for sound deadening especially being married at the time.

Could be that I mixed them up. Sorry - was not trying to do that purposely. I understand they can work, and do work, but would not be my choice due to the single point of failure. I understand @mcarroll notes that we can't describe why we feel the way we do but we will just have to respectfully disagree here. Single point of failure. Pipes get buildup by things such as vermetid snails, aiptasia, or other forms of life or debris. Also maintenance or feedmodes are something to consider. I caught the comment on blocking - valid point but a dead fish, algae, or say a turbo snail (yes, they have to make it over the weir or teeth (another subject)). I've actually had a 1 1/2" gorilla crab make it from my overflow box, down the plumbing, into my sump. Go figure. It isn't that we can't explain it but rather how we are considering what can happen and designing around it.

By the way this is not a installation or design shame so please don't take it that way. Just my opinion after running a single drain and later installing a different one. I am sure they can be done such that you can't hear it as you describe.