When to worry N & P

[Dmax]

Morning,

I have a young tank that I'm getting elevated phosphate readings with a Hanna ULR meter. The tank is a 450 gallon thats less than 6 months old now. I started the tank with dry display rocks and used my old reef rock that I placed in the sump. Added sand to the display and moved all my corals and fish over after about 2 months of running.

Question is if I get a higher than desired phosphate reading should I panic if I don't notice any visual side effects? I don't want to "chase Numbers" and cause more harm than good at this point. Should I just let the tank run its course and relax?

Currently running a Lifereef 60" skimmer 24/7 and a refugium with cheato. Also use filter socks that I change out weekly. I stared dosing vodka to the system about 3 weeks ago as well.

This was on 1/30 and added some GFO to a reactor.

Did a 100 gallon water change and tested the following day on 2/2.

 

[Tired]

Gorgeous tank!

There are tanks running with at least that much phosphate and no problems. If nothing looks bothered, you're generally fine.

 

[Dmax]

I'm feeding PE mysis shrimp in the evenings with a auto feeder feeding pellets twice in the am. I usualll add a sheet of nori 2-3 times a week. I do feel like I feed heavy but always have in the past.

 

[Dmax]

Gorgeous tank!

There are tanks running with at least that much phosphate and no problems. If nothing looks bothered, you're generally fine.

Appreciate it.

I'm stressing over this not wanting to loose any corals but feel like I just need to let it ride. Always see tanks running low phosphates and just curious if I'm headed into destructive territory.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no clear consensus on phosphate at the moment (IMO), and peoples thoughts and observations may reflect other differences in the husbandry techniques used and the animals kept in their own aquaria.

1. It is certainly true that one can have a great tank and have elevated phosphate (say, 1 ppm).

2. That does not mean that all organisms and all reef tanks thrive equally well at very high levels (say, 1 ppm)

 

[Dmax]

There is no clear consensus on phosphate at the moment (IMO), and peoples thoughts and observations may reflect other differences in the husbandry techniques used and the animals kept in their own aquaria.

1. It is certainly true that one can have a great tank and have elevated phosphate (say, 1 ppm).

2. That does not mean that all organisms and all reef tanks thrive equally well at very high levels (say, 1 ppm)

Thanks for the reply. Do you think I should just let the tank run its course as long as I’m not seeing issues. I’m really not liking the idea of running GFO on the system. Have had issues in the past.

 

[Troylee]

Thanks for the reply. Do you think I should just let the tank run its course as long as I’m not seeing issues. I’m really not liking the idea of running GFO on the system. Have had issues in the past.

Exactly what I would do! If the tank looks happy who cares what the testers say..

 

[Dmax]

Going to do that. This evening I’ll pull the GFO off and just monitor. If it gets close to 1ppm then add the GFO back online. Will test every couple of days and update progress.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wrote this just now in the context of an entirely different sort of thread, but it suits here too:

For example, a super common topic is what levels of nitrate and phosphate are suitable and/or best. There are threads about this almost every day. I don't want to make this thread about a particular chemistry topic, but it exemplifies a case where there is a lot of conflicting info around, even from experts that keep great tanks and are very well versed in the complexity of the issue. The fact that experts may disagree and provide evidence that disagrees can lead some folks to falsely assume anything is OK, when in reality, it may be the unspoken parts of the question are what matters most.

There are dozens of tables of optimal parameters floating around, including from me, and while I understand that folks want a simple table, I'm convinced that such tables may sometimes do a disservice because the optimal values may relate strongly not only to what is in the tank (which most reefers accept) but also what else is happening in the tank (which I'm not sure most reefers do generally think about, and usually is not part of the question or the answers provided).

In the nutrient case, for example, there are different definitions of what the question is really asking about:

1. Coral Color
2. Coral growth rate
3. Coral health (resistance to disease, RTN, STN, etc.)
4. Prevention of pests (algae, cyano, dinos, diatoms, etc.)

All organisms must get N and P from somewhere. But it can be a mistake to assume that any given organism gets most or all of it from nitrate and phosphate, since there are many other sources:

1. Orthophosphate, nitrate
2. Ammonia
3. Various other dissolved inorganic phosphate forms (essentially two or more phosphates chained together
4. Dissolved organic compounds providing N and P
5. Particulate organic materials (such as whole phyto or bacteria) providing N and P

Since the amount of ALL of those will vary from tank to tank, it may be oversimplified to focus only on the easy to measure sources (nitrate and phosphate):

When jda says his reef tank does best with very low nitrate (0.1 ppm) and phosphate (1-3 ppb) , it may well be due to his heavy in heavy out philosophy which boosts all of 2-5, and that same answer may not apply to different feeding plans or husbandry aspects.

When Hans-Werner Balling says to keep phosphate at 0.1 ppm and nitrate and other nitrogen compounds as low as possible, his intent to to defeat algae while allowing corals to grow.

When Thales keeps his reef tank at up to 100 ppm nitrate and 1 ppm phosphate, he has observed little difference in the visual observation of his reef aquarium when he has changed levels to lower values.

So what nitrate and phosphate values are best?

 

[jda]

Do you have an idea of what type of corals you want to keep? As said above, and in other places, not all will thrive with elevated residual no3 and po4 - many do not care at all... within reason. I am convinced that the wide variance between observed suffering or success is mostly dependent on the animals that we define too broadly as corals, SPS, etc... and that many from each category also have a wide range of acceptable limits.

I keep mine residual no3 and po4 low because they tank can just do it (set it up this way), I use the faster growing coralline to keep other types of algae at bay and I like to feed my fish a hellacious amount of food since it seems to keep them non agressive and good tank mates. Mostly, I want to be able to keep any acropora at any time - I can keep many that have not really thrived since people had DSB and very low no3 levels. I also like my sandbed critters and inverts, some of which do slow down as no3 rises - again, others do not.

There is some real zen to knowing what you want and then not working any harder than you have to (cost and time).

You cannot let the levels rise forever. If you do, you will start to notice some die off and other things might be fine still. Most look to ICP, heavy metals, neighbor sprayed pesticides, hand lotion or contaminant on hands, etc. since they do not understand why some corals would struggle with others are just fine... but it is real.

 

[Dmax]

I wrote this just now in the context of an entirely different sort of thread, but it suits here too:

For example, a super common topic is what levels of nitrate and phosphate are suitable and/or best. There are threads about this almost every day. I don't want to make this thread about a particular chemistry topic, but it exemplifies a case where there is a lot of conflicting info around, even from experts that keep great tanks and are very well versed in the complexity of the issue. The fact that experts may disagree and provide evidence that disagrees can lead some folks to falsely assume anything is OK, when in reality, it may be the unspoken parts of the question are what matters most.

There are dozens of tables of optimal parameters floating around, including from me, and while I understand that folks want a simple table, I'm convinced that such tables may sometimes do a disservice because the optimal values may relate strongly not only to what is in the tank (which most reefers accept) but also what else is happening in the tank (which I'm not sure most reefers do generally think about, and usually is not part of the question or the answers provided).

In the nutrient case, for example, there are different definitions of what the question is really asking about:

1. Coral Color
2. Coral growth rate
3. Coral health (resistance to disease, RTN, STN, etc.)
4. Prevention of pests (algae, cyano, dinos, diatoms, etc.)

All organisms must get N and P from somewhere. But it can be a mistake to assume that any given organism gets most or all of it from nitrate and phosphate, since there are many other sources:

1. Orthophosphate, nitrate
2. Ammonia
3. Various other dissolved inorganic phosphate forms (essentially two or more phosphates chained together
4. Dissolved organic compounds providing N and P
5. Particulate organic materials (such as whole phyto or bacteria) providing N and P

Since the amount of ALL of those will vary from tank to tank, it may be oversimplified to focus only on the easy to measure sources (nitrate and phosphate):

When jda says his reef tank does best with very low nitrate (0.1 ppm) and phosphate (1-3 ppb) , it may well be due to his heavy in heavy out philosophy which boosts all of 2-5, and that same answer may not apply to different feeding plans or husbandry aspects.

When Hans-Werner Balling says to keep phosphate at 0.1 ppm and nitrate and other nitrogen compounds as low as possible, his intent to to defeat algae while allowing corals to grow.

When Thales keeps his reef tank at up to 100 ppm nitrate and 1 ppm phosphate, he has observed little difference in the visual observation of his reef aquarium when he has changed levels to lower values.

So what nitrate and phosphate values are best?

Thank you for taking the time. I'm sure the nutrients may hinder growth rates but at this early on I'm really not concerned.

I do have a efflo coral that is a pretty good indicator on nutrients. It seems to darken and pale pretty quick compared to my other corals. At the moment it is pretty dark but growing.

Thanks Randy!

 

[Dmax]

Do you have an idea of what type of corals you want to keep? As said above, and in other places, not all will thrive with elevated residual no3 and po4 - many do not care at all... within reason. I am convinced that the wide variance between observed suffering or success is mostly dependent on the animals that we define too broadly as corals, SPS, etc... and that many from each category also have a wide range of acceptable limits.

I keep mine residual no3 and po4 low because they tank can just do it (set it up this way), I use the faster growing coralline to keep other types of algae at bay and I like to feed my fish a hellacious amount of food since it seems to keep them non agressive and good tank mates. Mostly, I want to be able to keep any acropora at any time - I can keep many that have not really thrived since people had DSB and very low no3 levels. I also like my sandbed critters and inverts, some of which do slow down as no3 rises - again, others do not.

There is some real zen to knowing what you want and then not working any harder than you have to (cost and time).

You cannot let the levels rise forever. If you do, you will start to notice some die off and other things might be fine still. Most look to ICP, heavy metals, neighbor sprayed pesticides, hand lotion or contaminant on hands, etc. since they do not understand why some corals would struggle with others are just fine... but it is real.

Jda I have mostly SPS corals and thats the direction I want to go. I have always wanted a packed tank of colorful SPS.

In previous setups I have never really had to worry about the nutrients. Maybe due to the age of the systems but always ran heavy in and out as well. I do have a pretty good fish load even for a 450. The rocks are still babys and with time will hopefully settle in.

I was mainly worried about seeing these numbers with my SPS currently in the system. I have never had to worry about Phosphates in older setups. They just kinda managed themselves I guess. I would only test nutrients when I noticed something visually out of the ordinary.

 

[Dmax]

Since dosing Vodka I have noticed the skimmer pulling more out. To be expected when carbon dosing correct.

 

[jda]

Your efflo is a good example of what I see with my acropora - some do care. If you want to keep a lot of these, then no3 above 5 and po4 above 0.03 will not help. Again, plenty of acropora won't need these numbers, but it also does not hurt them. What you can notice is the contrast is better between the branches and tips, the whites are whiter. I am not going to debate this here, but you already get some increased benefit from those MH for tricky acropora that others do not have.

More export. Never cut the import.

3 inches of sand keeps my no3 very low. I have a large fuge and run at least 3x skimmers on my tanks which keeps po4 pretty low too - I harvest 5 gallon bucket of chaeto every few weeks.

With an unintentional case study, I "rescued" a group of 15 anthias and these increased feedings took my po4 a bit higher than I liked at about 0.08 so I used some GFO to get it back down a bit to 0.03 and the tank took it back down to the 1-3 ppm that I am used to seeing. Even with this 3-4 month ordeal and still not high numbers, my coralline growth slowed down and some of my acros got darker and growth slowed. Most stayed the same. None changed for the better. no3 never moved - that bacteria in the sandbed is really good at it's job.

Do not underestimate second skimmers. In addition to organic removal, they help with gas exchange too. I use a LifeReef on every tank, but also a Tunze and some sort of old EuroReef or ASM with a Sicce PSK pump.

I order food by the kilo from Brine Shrimp Direct and go through 5lb bags of new life spectrum food quite often. Heavy in for sure.

Yes, that is what carbon dosing skim mate looks like.

 

[Dmax]

I have been needing to add more sand to the tank. Put some in initially but not enough. Some locations I can still see the bottom of the tank.

Appreciate the feedback and Yes I love the lights!