Why don't we do this? (coral "Cultivars" in the hobby)

Mr_Knightley

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In the plant world, there is a system of classification known as the Cultivar system.
If someone has a plant that he thinks is unique, he can submit a document with photos and a detailed description of said plant to the "Insert-Plant-Here association" to be reviewed as a cultivar. If it's too similar to another plant, the request is denied, otherwise the cultivar (which he names) is added to the databank where people can look it up and get detailed information about that particular plant, where it was grown, etc.
A similar deal is in place with the Grex system, where a particular cross will be named for the sake of convenience. For example, the cross Nepenthes lowii x ventricosa is shortened to N. x briggsiana. This is big in the orchid world too, as those hybrids are too complex to fit on a tag.

What I'm NOT encouraging is for big vendors to trademark a type of coral as a "cool coral person select ultra exclusive".
What I AM encouraging is for vendors and hobbyists to document genetic strains and put them somewhere easily accessible and free.
This would end the name wars with frags, where vendors get the same colonies from the same importers and give them different names (this is big with torches).
As an example.
You go to a reef show. Three different vendors have the same exact gold torch with pink tips, but they all named them different things. An inexperienced hobbyist would want to buy all three, simply because they are 'different', despite being the same genotype with the same displayed genes.
With a Cultivar system, vendors would decide which ocean it came from (when possible), what traits all the torches share, and what conditions they prefer, then give that genotype of torch a name. Nobody claims it, but that genotype of torch (defined by photos from each vendor who has it) would be known under one name.
This system would apply to most any type of coral. Zoanthids could be better categorized by genotype, hammers and Euphyllia could be sorted efficiently, and even oddballs like Cynarina could be effectively organized.

Again, this isn't a name it and claim it sort of deal. It's to organize corals based on physical and behavioral characteristics for the ease of both vendors and hobbyists. We already do this to an extent with things like 'pandora-type' zoas. What I propose is a list of these cultivars that people can access easily.


Here is an official cultivar submission document from the ICPS. It lists where it was grown, the parentage (or in our case, geographical origin), tendencies for the cultivar, and so on.
Thank you all for reading. Have a wonderful day and God bless.
 
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Mr_Knightley

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Maybe it's because I got into plants before getting into this hobby, but I personally would appreciate a system like this.
It wouldn't need to be very complex, just a form to fill out and a database to put it. The hardest part would be finding reliable people to moderate it and approve the genotype applications.
 
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Mr_Knightley

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A thread I just found covering the exact issue here.
 

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One reason it would be hard is actually getting ID down to the species level. Another is data collection, I'm sure there are some that would find interest in it and others that would not. I work with various cultivars of trout which my job is to collect data from feeding, growth, etc. Which gets compiled into a Federal report yearly. I only have a dozen lots (7 species) to deal with yearly.

A local private grower had a unique strain of brook trout from Maine that he spawned and raised yearly. I asked him if he kept any records on spawn timing, growth, etc. No, he said...I just shook my head.

I wouldn't trust photos either....I bought a really sweet looking "day glo favites" recently and it has lost it's "day glo". Just red and green now.
 
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Mr_Knightley

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One reason it would be hard is actually getting ID down to the species level. Another is data collection, I'm sure there are some that would find interest in it and others that would not. I work with various cultivars of trout which my job is to collect data from feeding, growth, etc. Which gets compiled into a Federal report yearly. I only have a dozen lots (7 species) to deal with yearly.

A local private grower had a unique strain of brook trout from Maine that he spawned and raised yearly. I asked him if he kept any records on spawn timing, growth, etc. No, he said...I just shook my head.

I wouldn't trust photos either....I bought a really sweet looking "day glo favites" recently and it has lost it's "day glo". Just red and green now.
All good points. It would be a logistical issue to actually review all submissions for sure.
I think a photo under both blue and 60000K light would need to be provided, as well as pictures of it growing in several different systems, which is where vendors would come in.
 
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In regards to species ID, that's not necessarily important. As long as we know that all of the corals in a submission are the same, the taxonomy can be figured out after the fact. Coral taxonomy is changing so much that trying to implement that in the submission form would be difficult at best.
 

19Mateo83

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I would think it would be almost impossible since corals colors change with water quality and chemistry, lighting, stress and some corals will “pout” occasionally…. I’m looking at you mr. Duncan…. All these variables will make it very very difficult to be able to say this has more blue tips or that one has more bounce to it…. So on and so fourth. I think this is also part of the problem with how things are named in the industry. How many times have you bought a colorful “X X X Ultra platinum super OG blah blah bla” coral and you get it home and the next day it looks completely different in your tank. You would have to set environmental standards to be able to positively identifying the new cultivars of species.
 

To(meany)Tang

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Kinda like leafly
I would think it would be almost impossible since corals colors change with water quality and chemistry, lighting, stress and some corals will “pout” occasionally…. I’m looking at you mr. Duncan…. All these variables will make it very very difficult to be able to say this has more blue tips or that one has more bounce to it…. So on and so fourth. I think this is also part of the problem with how things are named in the industry. How many times have you bought a colorful “X X X Ultra platinum super OG blah blah bla” coral and you get it home and the next day it looks completely different in your tank. You would have to set environmental standards to be able to positively identifying the new cultivars of species.
Maybe that's the issue. Everyone wants it to be perfect and spot on from the start but even High times magazines had editing and colors we knew that the real thing didn't look like that. People never complained but it did give them a good basis of where to start looking and how to identify. I think starting a Coral I.D app would be nice honestly. What variations of Color can be seen with this coral ..size.. location found..We can input information as time goes on. It's a turtle race in trying to identify every aspect of a coral down to coloration I wouldn't expect it to be a Bible of any sorts and of course people may not want to use it for their own reasons or disbelief but it would still make a great tool for those that would love to use it. :)
 
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Mr_Knightley

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Kinda like leafly

Maybe that's the issue. Everyone wants it to be perfect and spot on from the start but even High times magazines had editing and colors we knew that the real thing didn't look like that. People never complained but it did give them a good basis of where to start looking and how to identify. I think starting a Coral I.D app would be nice honestly. What variations of Color can be seen with this coral ..size.. location found..We can input information as time goes on. It's a turtle race in trying to identify every aspect of a coral down to coloration I wouldn't expect it to be a Bible of any sorts and of course people may not want to use it for their own reasons or disbelief but it would still make a great tool for those that would love to use it. :)
That's precisely what I'm thinking. The registry would be to document the range of appearances a genotype can display. This is where vendors would come in, to share photos from employee's tanks of coral that is known to be the same thing.
 

To(meany)Tang

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That's precisely what I'm thinking. The registry would be to document the range of appearances a genotype can display. This is where vendors would come in, to share photos from employee's tanks of coral that is known to be the same thing.
BINGO! I'd love to use that.
 

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since corals colors change with water quality and chemistry, lighting, stress and some corals will “pout” occasionally…. I’m looking at you mr. Duncan…. All these variables will make it very very difficult to be able to say this has more blue tips or that one has more bounce to it…. So on and so fourth.
That's precisely what I'm thinking. The registry would be to document the range of appearances a genotype can display. This is where vendors would come in, to share photos from employee's tanks of coral that is known to be the same thing.
I would be interested to see if by using a wide variety of pics and combining them with info about the setup of each pictured coral if we couldn’t get a decent idea of things such as: under this type of light with this light spectrum and PAR, this flow, and these parameters (as determined by these tests), we can get this phenotypic expression (or one of these phenotypic expressions) from the specific “cultivar” of X coral.

I recognize that this would be a lot more daunting and that it would need to be much more heavily regulated to ensure it contains high quality information, but an approach like this could potentially turn those problematic variables into valuable information that could help people fine-tune their coral’s appearance to be more like they want it to be (and it could potentially help explain why corals sometimes do things that we don’t quite understand yet, such as why some LPS seem to randomly inflate/“bounce,” or why some corals will start to “drip” as they grow, etc.).

Edit: just to add, I recognize that this still wouldn’t be a perfect system, but it seems like it could be useful IMO.
 

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People can't be trusted to adhere to a system of checks and balances and why buyer beware is a thing. An educated consumer is the best consumer. Forgot who used to market that but recall I was in Jersey in the 90s and it always stuck with me. Best we the buyer police ourselves into not getting conned by fancy names. As a breeder of designer boas. I too all well know this game. It's dishonest but uneducated buyers get scammed constantly and this often gives the rest of us a bad name. Trying to educate the buyers often futile as some buyers won't learn.
 

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I would be interested to see if by using a wide variety of pics and combining them with info about the setup of each pictured coral if we couldn’t get a decent idea of things such as: under this type of light with this light spectrum and PAR, this flow, and these parameters (as determined by these tests), we can get this phenotypic expression (or one of these phenotypic expressions) from the specific “cultivar” of X coral.

I recognize that this would be a lot more daunting and that it would need to be much more heavily regulated to ensure it contains high quality information, but an approach like this could potentially turn those problematic variables into valuable information that could help people fine-tune their coral’s appearance to be more like they want it to be (and it could potentially help explain why corals sometimes do things that we don’t quite understand yet, such as why some LPS seem to randomly inflate/“bounce,” or why some corals will start to “drip” as they grow, etc.).

Edit: just to add, I recognize that this still wouldn’t be a perfect system, but it seems like it could be useful IMO.
I like the idea of helping the hobbyist fine tune tank parameters to bring out the best in our corals. It still wouldn’t be an exact science but it would help put people on the right track. It would take a literal mountain of data on each species but if it is able to be done it has to start somewhere. Like a set of standard parameters measured a certain way, certain lighting parameters, photography standards and livestock standards. IF people or livestock vendors were able to do this and adhere to the standards a database COULD be possible.
 

damsels are not mean

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I think it just comes down to dedication... Cultivars in corals are much harder to define and then to later identify. There is too much variation in lighting and coral gene expression under different conditions. We can barely identify species in the hobby let alone specific strains. Then there's the issue with vendors just making up their own names for things that have been in the trade, so as to make more money on a perceived "rare" colony.
 
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Mr_Knightley

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I think it just comes down to dedication... Cultivars in corals are much harder to define and then to later identify. There is too much variation in lighting and coral gene expression under different conditions. We can barely identify species in the hobby let alone specific strains. Then there's the issue with vendors just making up their own names for things that have been in the trade, so as to make more money on a perceived "rare" colony.
This is where we need to pick our goal carefully. The end goal of something like this would be to categorize genotypes, as in groups of named strains, for easier ID. As an example, I would consider SC Orange Passion and Walt Disney to be in the same category as far as growth, typical color patterns, and colony shape are concerned. In this hypothetical database, OP and WD would be under "A. tenuis genotype B" along with other similar morphs. Other similar varieties could be sorted the same way.
 

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I would be interested to see if by using a wide variety of pics and combining them with info about the setup of each pictured coral if we couldn’t get a decent idea of things such as: under this type of light with this light spectrum and PAR, this flow, and these parameters (as determined by these tests), we can get this phenotypic expression (or one of these phenotypic expressions) from the specific “cultivar” of X coral.

I recognize that this would be a lot more daunting and that it would need to be much more heavily regulated to ensure it contains high quality information, but an approach like this could potentially turn those problematic variables into valuable information that could help people fine-tune their coral’s appearance to be more like they want it to be (and it could potentially help explain why corals sometimes do things that we don’t quite understand yet, such as why some LPS seem to randomly inflate/“bounce,” or why some corals will start to “drip” as they grow, etc.).

Edit: just to add, I recognize that this still wouldn’t be a perfect system, but it seems like it could be useful IMO.
AI chatbots could do this with the pictures. Analyze and group. If there are 40 montis that look the same, they should all be named the same. And a cost per inch price would be nice too. Or a standardization of frag sizes.
 
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Mr_Knightley

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AI chatbots could do this with the pictures. Analyze and group. If there are 40 montis that look the same, they should all be named the same. And a cost per inch price would be nice too. Or a standardization of frag sizes.
My brother in law mentioned this as a possibility. I may look into it.
 

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Cool idea!
 

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