The Name Game: Does Coral “Lineage” Matter?

[Reefer Matt]

What’s up Reefers!
With a plethora of coral species and color morphs out there, talking about a specific coral can get confusing if we described them literally. Like “Blue zoas with yellow centers and green skirts”. But this was how it was done in the past. Nowadays there are a lot of names associated with coral that help us get a better mental picture of that description.

However, it seems a side effect is that by assigning those names to coral, it also assigns a perceived value. But to further complicate things, there are those that say you can’t call a coral by a trade name unless you have paperwork stating where you bought it from.

It seems that some Reefers and vendors are trying to assign pedigrees, patents, or trademarks to coral to ensure that they both maintain the same quality and price point. Yet there is no (common hobbyist) way to know for sure that every coral specimen with a given name is in fact from the same colony.

So without an “AKC” for coral, there is no governing authority to ensure that the coral you see is in fact the coral that is represented by a name. Baseball cards and coins for example, have companies that verify both condition and authenticity of specimens.

My question is twofold: Does lineage matter? And if so, how do you trust a piece of paper that someone gives you with no governing authority to back it?

 

[shakacuz]

lineage will always matter. its just a matter of how you interpret it? i don't see names anymore but more "aquacultured vs. maricultured". i'd want an aquacultured coral that is tried and true and can live within our systems, compared to a maricultured that isn't totally acclimated to aquarium life and has a higher chance of dying off. the way i see it, every well known coral vendor has the same corals. so yeah, the names don't matter, but where they come from, do.

 

[fish farmer]

What’s up Reefers!
With a plethora of coral species and color morphs out there, talking about a specific coral can get confusing if we described them literally. Like “Blue zoas with yellow centers and green skirts”. But this was how it was done in the past. Nowadays there are a lot of names associated with coral that help us get a better mental picture of that description.

However, it seems a side effect is that by assigning those names to coral, it also assigns a perceived value. But to further complicate things, there are those that say you can’t call a coral by a trade name unless you have paperwork stating where you bought it from.

It seems that some Reefers and vendors are trying to assign pedigrees, patents, or trademarks to coral to ensure that they both maintain the same quality and price point. Yet there is no (common hobbyist) way to know for sure that every coral specimen with a given name is in fact from the same colony.

So without an “AKC” for coral, there is no governing authority to ensure that the coral you see is in fact the coral that is represented by a name. Baseball cards and coins for example, have companies that verify both condition and authenticity of specimens.

My question is twofold: Does lineage matter? And if so, how do you trust a piece of paper that someone gives you with no governing authority to back it?

Since everything seems to be paperless now...we are trusting a picture/screen shot, lol.

Regarding lineage, it would have to be valuable to the consumer, not just regarding the name, but growth and coloration if those are repeatable/expressed from the original coral. There may be many forms of Jason Fox Day Glow Favites. I have a Day Glow Favites from Pacific East Aquaculture, I don't believe it carried JF name on it, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Perhaps they are from the same specimen grown out over time? Mine seems to be doing very well so I don't care about if it was originally collected/cultured by JF, but if I did I would probably buy from JF or a facility which would have connection to JF.

There's a local coral to my region called "Todd's Torch". It is a particularly long tentacled torch that an Upstate NY Resident Doctor was growing and fragging back in the early 2000's. I've seen it in person and was at Todd's tank breakdown when he lived in Vermont. I bought a blasto and brain from him. If I was to search for this unique torch I would likely look in the Rochester, NY area, find reefers/LFS who were around during that era, perhaps even reach out to Todd himself (don't believe he still reefs). If I happened to find a LFS store with "Todd's Torch" there better be a picture of Todd with the owner on the wall or historic receipts/photographs.

I grew up in the era of paper receipts/credit card transactions. I can say all day long that I have original Fiji live rock in my tank. If you want me to prove it, I can screen shot the receipt from Flying Fish Express. I also state occasionally that I have green striped mushrooms in my tank bought from another closed store in 2000. I have a receipt from that as well, BUT further research in my notes, I find out they were red mushrooms added to my tank in July, 2000. I got the green mushrooms later, but not much later.

A handshake with your word only goes so far these days.

 

[BeanAnimal]

lineage will always matter. its just a matter of how you interpret it? i don't see names anymore but more "aquacultured vs. maricultured". i'd want an aquacultured

And how would you know?

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

I think lineage matters, and you deal with it as a hobbyist by only purchasing from those you have established trust with. Thus, not necessarily a need for some oversight authority.

There's certain vendors I have grown to respect / trust, and others I will never deal with. Also, I feel like those with a good name understand that trust is easily broken, so in a way the hobby is self-policing.

 

[shakacuz]

And how would you know?

i'd hope honesty is still a trait most people carry. especially when reputation is in stake for business

 

[Reefer Matt]

Since everything seems to be paperless now...we are trusting a picture/screen shot, lol.

Regarding lineage, it would have to be valuable to the consumer, not just regarding the name, but growth and coloration if those are repeatable/expressed from the original coral. There may be many forms of Jason Fox Day Glow Favites. I have a Day Glow Favites from Pacific East Aquaculture, I don't believe it carried JF name on it, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Perhaps they are from the same specimen grown out over time? Mine seems to be doing very well so I don't care about if it was originally collected/cultured by JF, but if I did I would probably buy from JF or a facility which would have connection to JF.

There's a local coral to my region called "Todd's Torch". It is a particularly long tentacled torch that an Upstate NY Resident Doctor was growing and fragging back in the early 2000's. I've seen it in person and was at Todd's tank breakdown when he lived in Vermont. I bought a blasto and brain from him. If I was to search for this unique torch I would likely look in the Rochester, NY area, find reefers/LFS who were around during that era, perhaps even reach out to Todd himself (don't believe he still reefs). If I happened to find a LFS store with "Todd's Torch" there better be a picture of Todd with the owner on the wall or historic receipts/photographs.

I grew up in the era of paper receipts/credit card transactions. I can say all day long that I have original Fiji live rock in my tank. If you want me to prove it, I can screen shot the receipt from Flying Fish Express. I also state occasionally that I have green striped mushrooms in my tank bought from another closed store in 2000. I have a receipt from that as well, BUT further research in my notes, I find out they were red mushrooms added to my tank in July, 2000. I got the green mushrooms later, but not much later.

A handshake with your word only goes so far these days.

I understand your point of view, but have this question as well. How do I know that the coral or item you have a receipt for is in fact the one you present to me? It is possible for the original specimen to die, and be replaced with a look alike. Hypothetically of course.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I think lineage matters, and you deal with it as a hobbyist by only purchasing from those you have established trust with. Thus, not necessarily a need for some oversight authority.

There's certain vendors I have grown to respect / trust, and others I will never deal with. Also, I feel like those with a good name understand that trust is easily broken, so in a way the hobby is self-policing.

So it is fair to say that certain vendors warrant higher prices regardless of the item being sold? Meaning if I just bought a coral from a big name vendor yesterday, but put it up for sale today, my coral would not have the same value as theirs because I am not them. (Assuming no lineage paper, etc,)

 

[Dburr1014]

I think it's all hogwash.

Every frag bought and sold are changed by so many factors. You all know it. Lights, flow, alk, stability, 1000 other things.

Color changed from one tank to another. Different growth pattern from one tank to another.
So person x buys a frag from vendor a.
Person x sells a piece to person y and y to then person z. Person z compares it to person x and it looks different. He thinks he got ripped off by person y.

Vendor b has an identical looking piece that sells frags twice the price of vendor a.

IDK, I don't like the way things are going.

 

[Cthulukelele]

We're experiencing the ever-growing effectiveness of marketing. Blue zoa with yellow skirt isn't exciting. Chiquita Ocean Rainbows that you could buy and resell for 40 dollars a polyp? Sounds like serious FOMO if you don't buy. How could you afford NOT to buy them on sale and frag them? Live sales? It's the ABCs of marketing. Make the product feel special. Make the product feel exclusive. Make the product feel like a steal. Put it on a timer to make it feel urgent. You MUST decide right now may never get another chance.

Idk how to stop it from happening, but what we're seeing in reefing is the same thing we see more and more in every aspect of society these days: the weaponization of our neurochemistry to get us to spend a larger percentage of our income on things we're already predisposed to buying.

 

[apb03]

A colloquial name for a coral is needed and I find it pretty disingenuous for folks to claim otherwise. However, the lack of a centralized agreed-upon identification repository leaves a lot of room for scammers and ultimately creates a lot of bad outcomes for the hobby in general.

 

[Hugster78]

I have seen numerous sps with different names that are identical. It happens on multiple vendors sites and frag swaps. I gave up on lineage years ago. The OG purple monster broke me . Numerous fakes out there. Doesn’t stop people from selling them though.

 

[fish farmer]

I understand your point of view, but have this question as well. How do I know that the coral or item you have a receipt for is in fact the one you present to me? It is possible for the original specimen to die, and be replaced with a look alike. Hypothetically of course.

That is where honestly, integrity, buying from a well known business, etc., etc.

I have a rescue dog. I bought the dog for $300 adoption fees for a young dog, 2 years old. He was advertised as under 3 years. The older dog fees were $150. Once we got him home with all the paperwork from when he was originally rescued down south, moved to Vermont, etc. the years matched up to over 4 years old.

Sure, we could have taken the rescue facility to small claims court, we even have a silly contract with her regarding the dog.

Moral of the story buy from good businesses, and if some new business has some "lineage" coral. Question that business. I personally don't care about lineage, just if it stays alive in my tank and looks pretty.

These corals aren't breeding in our tanks, just self fragging or manually chopped, so the only thing a business could claim maybe length of time propagated in captivity....does well in our systems.

 

[Reefer Matt]

So it seems that Reefers are paying for the brand name, not the coral. To go with that, I also think buying a certain coral only because it is popular or valuable is irresponsible. I get that we may want to feel rich and powerful sometimes, or at least have something valuable to brag about. But I think doing that with live animals isn’t the proper way to satisfy those feelings. There are many non living things that will accomplish that for us.

 

[fish farmer]

lineage will always matter. its just a matter of how you interpret it? i don't see names anymore but more "aquacultured vs. maricultured". i'd want an aquacultured coral that is tried and true and can live within our systems, compared to a maricultured that isn't totally acclimated to aquarium life and has a higher chance of dying off. the way i see it, every well known coral vendor has the same corals. so yeah, the names don't matter, but where they come from, do.

i'd hope honesty is still a trait most people carry. especially when reputation is in stake for business

This brings me back to my early years and hoping the company is selling you the right thing.

I bought aquacultured live rock from Gulf-View around 2002, my second live rock purchase.

Well, Dale go busted for collecting real Florida Live Rock https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/busted-for-illegal-live-rock-collection-sales.357584/

I always wondered about some of my Florida rock, it looked too eroded to be mined rock.

 

[KK's Reef]

I think it matters to justify the price. If a reefer or vendor wants to charge $300 for a 1 inch RRU Angry Bird frag, then it better be a frag from an actual RRU Angry Bird colony. I'm sure there's color morphs of this acro that can pass as Angry Bird, but selling the morph as the original coral is misleading and downright shady.

 

[JayM]

In my limited experience, lineage = overpriced.
I can’t recall the name, but I recently saw a fancy “rare” torch with a green mouth and purple tips listed for 100’s of dollars. I have one that looks identical and paid about $80 for it.

 

[Dburr1014]

So it seems that Reefers are paying for the brand name, not the coral. To go with that, I also think buying a certain coral only because it is popular or valuable is irresponsible. I get that we may want to feel rich and powerful sometimes, or at least have something valuable to brag about. But I think doing that with live animals isn’t the proper way to satisfy those feelings. There are many non living things that will accomplish that for us.

I buy what I like for looks if I can afford it.

 

[fish farmer]

In my limited experience, lineage = overpriced.
I can’t recall the name, but I recently saw a fancy “rare” torch with a green mouth and purple tips listed for 100’s of dollars. I have one that looks identical and paid about $80 for it.

I think that's Todd's Torch.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

So it is fair to say that certain vendors warrant higher prices regardless of the item being sold? Meaning if I just bought a coral from a big name vendor yesterday, but put it up for sale today, my coral would not have the same value as theirs because I am not them. (Assuming no lineage paper, etc,)

Yes - I do agree with this principle. Not just trusting that I'm buying what they're marketing - but also reliability of when they'll deliver/timeliness, packaging, shipping, how pest-free it is... etc.

Personally I will def pay up for the vendors I like. But to a certain limit obviously.