Coral Lineage: Do People Care Anymore? How Do You Prove It?

[ReefStable]

Another thought provoking question for the community!

When you buy a coral that indicates a name (i.e. ASD Holy Grail or JF Lime Light Hydnophora):

1. Do you care about the lineage name or is it just to help you ID the coral?
2. Do you care more about the lineage or that it is aquacultured vs wild?
3. What type or coral / price point do you care about lineage?
4. The big one... How would you prove lineage?

This was sparked from a conversation about how lineage is easily faked these days.
So how would those of you that care about lineage like to see it proven?
Is it worth caring anymore as long as it is healthy, aquacultured, and the right coral?

Let's have the discussion!

 

[ChrisPPolys]

I don’t think Lineage matters, I know people will post saying it does.

I love the way Mark and Jake break down this idea in this podcast. They talk about the idiocracy behind naming a coral and asking for lineage.

 

[Biokabe]

I'm going to come down on the side of... it could matter, but it doesn't matter right now.

I can see good reasons to develop a "lineage" for corals. Tracing descent, identifying growth and disease patterns, standardizing care procedures... there are benefits to having a lineage system. Could also be useful in terms of repopulating wild colonies.

We don't have such a system right now, and pretending like we do does more harm than good. Without some accepted authority that can confirm or deny the lineage of any coral, we can't even begin to think about how to structure any kind of lineage claim in a way that is of benefit to anyone in the industry or hobby.

I have some Aoi zoas in my tank. I know that I got them from @WWC. But I don't have anything that can prove to any neutral 3rd party that the zoas in my tank came from the original colony of Aoi zoas at WWC. They could just be a similar color morph that I picked up to replace the actual Aois that a filefish decided to eat after it polished off the aiptasia in my tank. They could be a different zoa that mutated into a similar color scheme.

But regardless of where I got them - they're a very nice blue and yellow zoa that grow reasonably well in the tank of an average aquarist. If I were to attempt to sell some frags out of that colony, does my buyer care that they are "authentic" Aoi zoanthids from @WWC, or do they care that they're getting a nice color morph that's reasonably hardy? Some will. Most, I imagine, won't. They care more about the coral than the name - and I personally would argue that's the right stance.

But there are some reasons to want a coral lineage system. There's a thread up right now for a hobbyist who was trying to get an orange torch. I personally have seen an orange torch, but they're not exactly common. The hobbyist tried to do his diligence to confirm that what he was buying was an actual orange torch, but ultimately what he received was a nice... gold torch. If we had an actual lineage system, he could have simply asked to see the certifications on the coral, and made his purchase with a little bit more confidence.

I don't think it matters or makes sense with the more common corals, like GSP or Kenya trees. They're so ubiquitous in the hobby, I don't think you could even begin to identify the original mother colonies behind them. But something like an OG bounce or a Helios acropora, where you're talking serious money for unique corals? Yeah, I could see the benefit, if we could get the infrastructure in place to support it in a manner that hobbyists can trust.

 

[ChrisPPolys]

I'm going to come down on the side of... it could matter, but it doesn't matter right now.

I can see good reasons to develop a "lineage" for corals. Tracing descent, identifying growth and disease patterns, standardizing care procedures... there are benefits to having a lineage system. Could also be useful in terms of repopulating wild colonies.

We don't have such a system right now, and pretending like we do does more harm than good. Without some accepted authority that can confirm or deny the lineage of any coral, we can't even begin to think about how to structure any kind of lineage claim in a way that is of benefit to anyone in the industry or hobby.

I have some Aoi zoas in my tank. I know that I got them from @WWC. But I don't have anything that can prove to any neutral 3rd party that the zoas in my tank came from the original colony of Aoi zoas at WWC. They could just be a similar color morph that I picked up to replace the actual Aois that a filefish decided to eat after it polished off the aiptasia in my tank. They could be a different zoa that mutated into a similar color scheme.

But regardless of where I got them - they're a very nice blue and yellow zoa that grow reasonably well in the tank of an average aquarist. If I were to attempt to sell some frags out of that colony, does my buyer care that they are "authentic" Aoi zoanthids from @WWC, or do they care that they're getting a nice color morph that's reasonably hardy? Some will. Most, I imagine, won't. They care more about the coral than the name - and I personally would argue that's the right stance.

But there are some reasons to want a coral lineage system. There's a thread up right now for a hobbyist who was trying to get an orange torch. I personally have seen an orange torch, but they're not exactly common. The hobbyist tried to do his diligence to confirm that what he was buying was an actual orange torch, but ultimately what he received was a nice... gold torch. If we had an actual lineage system, he could have simply asked to see the certifications on the coral, and made his purchase with a little bit more confidence.

I don't think it matters or makes sense with the more common corals, like GSP or Kenya trees. They're so ubiquitous in the hobby, I don't think you could even begin to identify the original mother colonies behind them. But something like an OG bounce or a Helios acropora, where you're talking serious money for unique corals? Yeah, I could see the benefit, if we could get the infrastructure in place to support it in a manner that hobbyists can trust.

As stated in that link I posted about how silly lineage is, if you listen, your problem would be solved if more hobbyists knew and used scientific names. Not a made up pop culture referenced name.

There’s already a post on R2R regarding this same question. I think one of the best comments was along the lines of hypothetically speaking “if I sold WWC a coral and they change the name to whatever, what name is correct? Whose name aka lineage is correct?”

I have no problems with WWC just using them as an example. I’ll link that post, give me a minute.

Again I’d really recommend that reef therapy episode, I couldn’t agree more with what is stated.

 

[ChrisPPolys]

I'm going to come down on the side of... it could matter, but it doesn't matter right now.

I can see good reasons to develop a "lineage" for corals. Tracing descent, identifying growth and disease patterns, standardizing care procedures... there are benefits to having a lineage system. Could also be useful in terms of repopulating wild colonies.

We don't have such a system right now, and pretending like we do does more harm than good. Without some accepted authority that can confirm or deny the lineage of any coral, we can't even begin to think about how to structure any kind of lineage claim in a way that is of benefit to anyone in the industry or hobby.

I have some Aoi zoas in my tank. I know that I got them from @WWC. But I don't have anything that can prove to any neutral 3rd party that the zoas in my tank came from the original colony of Aoi zoas at WWC. They could just be a similar color morph that I picked up to replace the actual Aois that a filefish decided to eat after it polished off the aiptasia in my tank. They could be a different zoa that mutated into a similar color scheme.

But regardless of where I got them - they're a very nice blue and yellow zoa that grow reasonably well in the tank of an average aquarist. If I were to attempt to sell some frags out of that colony, does my buyer care that they are "authentic" Aoi zoanthids from @WWC, or do they care that they're getting a nice color morph that's reasonably hardy? Some will. Most, I imagine, won't. They care more about the coral than the name - and I personally would argue that's the right stance.

But there are some reasons to want a coral lineage system. There's a thread up right now for a hobbyist who was trying to get an orange torch. I personally have seen an orange torch, but they're not exactly common. The hobbyist tried to do his diligence to confirm that what he was buying was an actual orange torch, but ultimately what he received was a nice... gold torch. If we had an actual lineage system, he could have simply asked to see the certifications on the coral, and made his purchase with a little bit more confidence.

I don't think it matters or makes sense with the more common corals, like GSP or Kenya trees. They're so ubiquitous in the hobby, I don't think you could even begin to identify the original mother colonies behind them. But something like an OG bounce or a Helios acropora, where you're talking serious money for unique corals? Yeah, I could see the benefit, if we could get the infrastructure in place to support it in a manner that hobbyists can trust.

The Name Game: Does Coral “Lineage” Matter?

I think it matters to justify the price. If a reefer or vendor wants to charge $300 for a 1 inch RRU Angry Bird frag, then it better be a frag from an actual RRU Angry Bird colony. I'm sure there's color morphs of this acro that can pass as Angry Bird, but selling the morph as the original...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[crazyfishmom]

I just want healthy Coral that’s aquacultured because it tends to be more hardy. Other than that, it should be irrelevant. They look different in every tank anyway!

 

[officialreefbros]

I just want healthy Coral that’s aquacultured because it tends to be more hardy. Other than that, it should be irrelevant. They look different in every tank anyway!

I fully agree. I've had some of the same corals one with an aquacultured background has grown amazingly while the other hasn't done great in the same system.

 

[PeterErc]

REEF FARMERS

Farming coral reef ocean life in captivity.

reeffarmers.com

Yea, way back when, you knew exactly what your were getting. Now it’s mostly B.S. and out of control.
Check out this mariculture colony of garf bonsai I just bought at the LFS. Forget about zoas, same polyp has three names or more? How many corals got some goofy name just to sell it with a name. Oh! and don’t forget how “rare” or “high end” they are. Did I say it’s B.S.

I am not paying the high price for frags no matter where they came from. They all come from nature. If everyone stopped competing with the joneses and save the hard earned money prices would drop and this could be a hobby again instead of shameless business.

Oh boy tell ya how I really feel lol

 

[Biokabe]

As stated in that link I posted about how silly lineage is, if you listen, your problem would be solved if more hobbyists knew and used scientific names. Not a made up pop culture referenced name.

There’s already a post on R2R regarding this same question. I think one of the best comments was along the lines of hypothetically speaking “if I sold WWC a coral and they change the name to whatever, what name is correct? Whose name aka lineage is correct?”

I have no problems with WWC just using them as an example. I’ll link that post, give me a minute.

Again I’d really recommend that reef therapy episode, I couldn’t agree more with what is stated.

Scientific names are great and should be used more, especially with the current state of the hobby. By that I mean: Most corals, even aquacultured, are at most one or two generations removed from the wild. And most aquacultured corals are grown out from frags of existing corals, rather than grown out from coral larvae. So there is certainly value in knowing whether you have a Pachyclavularia violacea or a Euphyllia glabrescens.

But there are limits to scientific names. For one, exact species ID is difficult for many corals, with many only identifiable via skeletal examination. For two, variation within a species can be great. Acropora tenuis is one such example; I can think of many different color morphs just off the top of my head. Or there's the variations within torch corals, acan corals and more. Just because it's the same species, doesn't mean it looks the same or responds the same to different environmental conditions. Think of the difference between a Chihuahua and a British bulldog. Both the same species, but very different animals with different needs.

Concentrating on lineage vs. species can help correct some of that grey area. But with the hobby as it is now, the concept of lineage isn't useful. We don't have any organization in place to arbitrate what lineage even means, so that comment about selling WWC a coral is absolutely pertinent. We don't have a mechanism to really track descent, we don't have anyone who can say if a Holy Grail torch is the same thing as a 24k Knicks torch, and we don't have any standards. Again, no problem with WWC, but if I were to go in and sell them something that I'm calling a Strawberry Starburst chalice, there'd be nothing stopping them from renaming it to a Bloody Mary chalice and selling it under that name. Both names are equally informative to the next person who comes along and tries to buy that coral from WWC - which is to say, not at all, unless the coral is a well-known color morph.

In short: lineage could be useful. It is currently not a useful concept in the hobby, and we're currently better off just ignoring the entire concept and relying on what we can see with our eyes to ensure we're not paying more than we need to and giving our animals the proper care to help them thrive.

 

[ChrisPPolys]

Scientific names are great and should be used more, especially with the current state of the hobby. By that I mean: Most corals, even aquacultured, are at most one or two generations removed from the wild. And most aquacultured corals are grown out from frags of existing corals, rather than grown out from coral larvae. So there is certainly value in knowing whether you have a Pachyclavularia violacea or a Euphyllia glabrescens.

But there are limits to scientific names. For one, exact species ID is difficult for many corals, with many only identifiable via skeletal examination. For two, variation within a species can be great. Acropora tenuis is one such example; I can think of many different color morphs just off the top of my head. Or there's the variations within torch corals, acan corals and more. Just because it's the same species, doesn't mean it looks the same or responds the same to different environmental conditions. Think of the difference between a Chihuahua and a British bulldog. Both the same species, but very different animals with different needs.

Concentrating on lineage vs. species can help correct some of that grey area. But with the hobby as it is now, the concept of lineage isn't useful. We don't have any organization in place to arbitrate what lineage even means, so that comment about selling WWC a coral is absolutely pertinent. We don't have a mechanism to really track descent, we don't have anyone who can say if a Holy Grail torch is the same thing as a 24k Knicks torch, and we don't have any standards. Again, no problem with WWC, but if I were to go in and sell them something that I'm calling a Strawberry Starburst chalice, there'd be nothing stopping them from renaming it to a Bloody Mary chalice and selling it under that name. Both names are equally informative to the next person who comes along and tries to buy that coral from WWC - which is to say, not at all, unless the coral is a well-known color morph.

In short: lineage could be useful. It is currently not a useful concept in the hobby, and we're currently better off just ignoring the entire concept and relying on what we can see with our eyes to ensure we're not paying more than we need to and giving our animals the proper care to help them thrive.

Very well said, the only thing I have a gripe with is about the color morphs. The same coral as i’m sure you know can look very different tank to tank under different lighting and parameters. Such as Micromussa lordhowensis, the second they hit a new tank they can start to turn a completely different color. Ide have to disagree with you on different care requirements for the same species.

Jake Adam’s probably forgot more reef information than I will ever know he does a whole lot better job describing what I’m trying to say.

 

[ReefStable]

I think this is a great discussion! Outside of just lineage, but the name game as well.

Name Game:
Being a vendor, it's especially tough with the name game. Every zoa has two to four names. So I try to list the known names in the description, and the most popular name as the title. But the hobbyist it came from got it from another hobbyist and so forth. So the names I find to just be a way to identify a color/pattern morph. I would support it if there was a single name for each, but naturally they all have multiple which makes it useless for everyone.

I like the way zoanthids.com does this id section. Unfortunately that's only one perspective as well. There really needs to be a list of common names for each nowadays, but again, thats not as helpful as simplifying the system.

While scientific names are great, it doesn't help much with identifying the color morphs. That's where a single point of reference would be a great deal of help!

Lineage:
As for lineage... I'm not sure how much it should matter. Even on expensive coral, it seems like a flawed system for even the most advanced collector.

For example, I have an ASD Holy Grail Torch. When I bought it, I asked "How do you know it's an ASD and not TSA for example?" and they said that they asked the lineage from the previous owner and verified by looking at the colors, tentacle thickness and length.

Now, somebody that digs that deep tells me that I can trust them. But what does it really mean to me? It just means I'm getting the color morph I'm looking for. I know there may be others like TSA with the same color morph. And in my opinion, they're the same coral. But it's almost like the lineage of high end coral is their "name game". An example of this is that the "OG Holy Grail Torch" looks very different from an "ASD Holy Grail Torch". Both tentacle color and tip colors are different. Not to mention the tentacles look different.

Conclusion:
In summary, I think that from my perspective, lineage has become part of a naming game and it's just about knowing what you're looking for and what you're willing to spend on it. I don't pay more for lineage. But I will pay more for healthy aquacultured coral that matches what I'm looking for!


Let's Keep The Discussion Going!

 

[Reefer Matt]

I think this is a great discussion! Outside of just lineage, but the name game as well.

Name Game:
Being a vendor, it's especially tough with the name game. Every zoa has two to four names. So I try to list the known names in the description, and the most popular name as the title. But the hobbyist it came from got it from another hobbyist and so forth. So the names I find to just be a way to identify a color/pattern morph. I would support it if there was a single name for each, but naturally they all have multiple which makes it useless for everyone.

I like the way zoanthids.com does this id section. Unfortunately that's only one perspective as well. There really needs to be a list of common names for each nowadays, but again, thats not as helpful as simplifying the system.

While scientific names are great, it doesn't help much with identifying the color morphs. That's where a single point of reference would be a great deal of help!

Lineage:
As for lineage... I'm not sure how much it should matter. Even on expensive coral, it seems like a flawed system for even the most advanced collector.

For example, I have an ASD Holy Grail Torch. When I bought it, I asked "How do you know it's an ASD and not TSA for example?" and they said that they asked the lineage from the previous owner and verified by looking at the colors, tentacle thickness and length.

Now, somebody that digs that deep tells me that I can trust them. But what does it really mean to me? It just means I'm getting the color morph I'm looking for. I know there may be others like TSA with the same color morph. And in my opinion, they're the same coral. But it's almost like the lineage of high end coral is their "name game". An example of this is that the "OG Holy Grail Torch" looks very different from an "ASD Holy Grail Torch". Both tentacle color and tip colors are different. Not to mention the tentacles look different.

Conclusion:
In summary, I think that from my perspective, lineage has become part of a naming game and it's just about knowing what you're looking for and what you're willing to spend on it. I don't pay more for lineage. But I will pay more for healthy aquacultured coral that matches what I'm looking for!


Let's Keep The Discussion Going!

I think lineage has two separate meanings, depending on what kind of Reefer you are. There are purists, who have coral because they like marine animals. And there are collectors, who collect things that are usually high in value. Probably some in between as well.

From my observation:
Lineage is a way to trace a frag back to a certain colony with certain traits.
Lineage is also a way to trace a frag back to a certain seller.
Some people care about those, some don’t. There is no way on the hobbyist level to guarantee lineage. It’s all about trust. Which sorta negates the point of using it for selling purposes, imo.

 

[ReefStable]

I think lineage has two separate meanings, depending on what kind of Reefer you are. There are purists, who have coral because they like marine animals. And there are collectors, who collect things that are usually high in value. Probably some in between as well.

From my observation:
Lineage is a way to trace a frag back to a certain colony with certain traits.
Lineage is also a way to trace a frag back to a certain seller.
Some people care about those, some don’t. There is no way on the hobbyist level to guarantee lineage. It’s all about trust. Which sorta negates the point of using it for selling purposes, imo.

I agree. The colony itself doesn't even get tracked though. Just that a specific seller was selling it as a "Name Here" coral. I've been on a few sites where they have their named coral but there are 2 or 3 different variations. Holy Grails are a good example because there can be 2 different grails with the same name and lineage...

 

[Reefer Matt]

I agree. The colony itself doesn't even get tracked though. Just that a specific seller was selling it as a "Name Here" coral. I've been on a few sites where they have their named coral but there are 2 or 3 different variations. Holy Grails are a good example because there can be 2 different grails with the same name and lineage...

True. It also seems like everyone wants to name a coral. Get in on a box of wilds, color them up, then add their “trade name” to it. It used to be done by traditional store owners and vendors, but now it seems anyone can do it. I think most Reefers have access to someone with a wholesale account nowadays.

 

[ReefLegends]

As a vendor that does trade shows, I’ve sold corals to vendors at the show before doors open. Only to walk the floor and find they have named an old school coral like my indo gold torch I’ve had since 2013. At Rap Orlando 2019 every vendor I sold a gold torch called it something different, from dragon soul to 21 tails and so forth. These are larger vendors that people trust but they didn’t grow the coral, they slap a name on the coral and charged 3x what I sold it to them. I got my full retail asking price so I didn’t care.

I’ve sold off colony’s of zoas that people have changed the name, another example of renaming an old zoa and calling it something else.

People will want names, I feel like that is silly at this point. As a vendor who’s been in the game before names and it’s peak, there was a point to lineage but that’s gone and people will import a coral and slap a name on it.

At this point if I like a coral, I buy it, grow it out and sell it off. I don’t care about names and stopped writing names on my new growout tiles.

I do have named corals, I do want a premium for a few corals still. Most of these vendors do no account for coral care, growth costs or maintenance. I go to shows where vendors don’t know what their costs are besides the corals cost $100 and I’m selling it for $130 and getting 30% on my money. These vendors can last for a while but when something happens they won’t last long.

If you see me at a show and ask me for a package deal on the $20 or $30 corals and don’t ask what they are or names, you are more likely to get a deal. I’m also a sucker for young hobbyists. At reef stock there was a young reefer who bought a mystery bag and wanted to trade up for a torch. These are the people that would rather give a hookup to than a person trying to come at the end of the show to lowball on a coral they want.

 

[happyhourhero]

Breeding rights are included in my asking price for a frag.

 

[fltt]

Following

 

[Reefer Matt]

As a vendor that does trade shows, I’ve sold corals to vendors at the show before doors open. Only to walk the floor and find they have named an old school coral like my indo gold torch I’ve had since 2013. At Rap Orlando 2019 every vendor I sold a gold torch called it something different, from dragon soul to 21 tails and so forth. These are larger vendors that people trust but they didn’t grow the coral, they slap a name on the coral and charged 3x what I sold it to them. I got my full retail asking price so I didn’t care.

I’ve sold off colony’s of zoas that people have changed the name, another example of renaming an old zoa and calling it something else.

People will want names, I feel like that is silly at this point. As a vendor who’s been in the game before names and it’s peak, there was a point to lineage but that’s gone and people will import a coral and slap a name on it.

At this point if I like a coral, I buy it, grow it out and sell it off. I don’t care about names and stopped writing names on my new growout tiles.

I do have named corals, I do want a premium for a few corals still. Most of these vendors do no account for coral care, growth costs or maintenance. I go to shows where vendors don’t know what their costs are besides the corals cost $100 and I’m selling it for $130 and getting 30% on my money. These vendors can last for a while but when something happens they won’t last long.

If you see me at a show and ask me for a package deal on the $20 or $30 corals and don’t ask what they are or names, you are more likely to get a deal. I’m also a sucker for young hobbyists. At reef stock there was a young reefer who bought a mystery bag and wanted to trade up for a torch. These are the people that would rather give a hookup to than a person trying to come at the end of the show to lowball on a coral they want.

I’m a vendor myself, but do very cheap prices on coral. It’s a side gig for me. (But still fully licensed, etc.) When I first started, I would have other vendors buy up my “higher end” corals. But I learned to wait to put my price tags out just before the customers come in. I know it’s a gamble, but I’d rather see a hobbyist get a good deal than another vendor.

 

[ReefStable]

As a vendor that does trade shows, I’ve sold corals to vendors at the show before doors open. Only to walk the floor and find they have named an old school coral like my indo gold torch I’ve had since 2013. At Rap Orlando 2019 every vendor I sold a gold torch called it something different, from dragon soul to 21 tails and so forth. These are larger vendors that people trust but they didn’t grow the coral, they slap a name on the coral and charged 3x what I sold it to them. I got my full retail asking price so I didn’t care.

I’ve sold off colony’s of zoas that people have changed the name, another example of renaming an old zoa and calling it something else.

People will want names, I feel like that is silly at this point. As a vendor who’s been in the game before names and it’s peak, there was a point to lineage but that’s gone and people will import a coral and slap a name on it.

At this point if I like a coral, I buy it, grow it out and sell it off. I don’t care about names and stopped writing names on my new growout tiles.

I do have named corals, I do want a premium for a few corals still. Most of these vendors do no account for coral care, growth costs or maintenance. I go to shows where vendors don’t know what their costs are besides the corals cost $100 and I’m selling it for $130 and getting 30% on my money. These vendors can last for a while but when something happens they won’t last long.

If you see me at a show and ask me for a package deal on the $20 or $30 corals and don’t ask what they are or names, you are more likely to get a deal. I’m also a sucker for young hobbyists. At reef stock there was a young reefer who bought a mystery bag and wanted to trade up for a torch. These are the people that would rather give a hookup to than a person trying to come at the end of the show to lowball on a coral they want.

Well Said! I agree on all notes here. I go to shows and see people selling things for $5 - $10 and think to myself, if only you realized the cost of salt, chemicals, electricity, and sheer time, just to sell it for nothing. Don't get me wrong, there are some coral that you sell for less because they grow fast or you've decided to no-longer grow the coral. That's fine and well, but if your whole tank is 50% of the standard price, either you won't be around long or your coral are wild and you're moving them fast so they don't die in your tank. I see it alot.

Some coral I charge a premium on as well. And for those, I don't really entertain offers. I've had coral that go for over $100 and at a show I'll put $60 on it. I had someone say they'd give me $20 and I'm overpriced. After that, I wasn't interested in selling anything to them. Those willing to buy 3 or more coral at the shows, I am much more inclined to make a deal.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Well Said! I agree on all notes here. I go to shows and see people selling things for $5 - $10 and think to myself, if only you realized the cost of salt, chemicals, electricity, and sheer time, just to sell it for nothing. Don't get me wrong, there are some coral that you sell for less because they grow fast or you've decided to no-longer grow the coral. That's fine and well, but if your whole tank is 50% of the standard price, either you won't be around long or your coral are wild and you're moving them fast so they don't die in your tank. I see it alot.

Some coral I charge a premium on as well. And for those, I don't really entertain offers. I've had coral that go for over $100 and at a show I'll put $60 on it. I had someone say they'd give me $20 and I'm overpriced. After that, I wasn't interested in selling anything to them. Those willing to buy 3 or more coral at the shows, I am much more inclined to make a deal.

I do low prices because I can afford to. I don’t sell online, and only at one swap. Nothing too fancy, but every one of my coral are aquacultured. I understand that there are others who depend on the swaps to make a living, so I adjust sizes of the frags as necessary. But most of the time they all have $10 frags too.
At the end of the day, I still take about half of them home because I am a nobody. Some customers actually prefer to spend more, as they perceive a better value with a brand name. I just enjoy the atmosphere and company of the Reefers more than the money.