Why is my Phosphate zero, Nitrite 1, and Hammers bleaching at what appears to be lessening of the ugly stage that started about 3 weeks ago?

[DanTheReefer]

OK based on everything that's been said to date, I think the lighting schedule you've been running since November is the #1 likely suspect. With a small tank, you can easily blast too much light down to the bottom of the tank. I'd probably lower your overall intensity even more. I run the radion on my daughter's 20G cube at 50% of the overall intensity that the radions on my DT are at. After a couple weeks at lower intensity, see how things look. If things are going south fast, you can borrow my PAR meter. I'd just ask that you pay for shipping both ways.
PS Really good looking tank. I like your aquascaping and coral placement

This^
I was having a bad first 6 months and was about to order more lighting. Decided to see where I was at with a seneye par meter first, and was pretty shocked that it was in the 600-800s at about 6 inches.
When par is too low they tend to slowly, over a period of months, waste away. When it’s too high/ too high too fast they can bleach and die in a couple of weeks.

 

[BWV]

I'm thinking about my gravel.. It's between an inch and a half and two inches.

I probably should just try the two things I'm doing now and watch, not add another stressor...

But...
I'm thinking about putting everything but the sand in another tank(easy for me... theres only 10 gallons of water in this 13.5 gallon tank) including as much water as I can get out without disturbing the sand bed, then pulling all the sand, cleaning/rinsing just enough sand to get maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch sand bed back in...
I do like the look of the deep bed, but am worried it could be holding something decaying or detrimental.

 

[BWV]

2.5ml of Neophos in, (.5ml 2 days ago, 1ml yesterday, 1ml this morning) and I don't see any indication it's there.
There's got to be a little, as I am seeing some bright green algae in a corner.

I'm going to stop dosing this for a little bit and just watch. According to the math, and if I had close to zero, I should now have around 0.06ppm phosphate. According to the label, 1ml in 1 gallon adds 0.25ppm. I have about 10gal.

Looking at maybe adding a ULR Phosphate Hanna to the tool box. I just don't know that it's needed... I'll test my test kit by putting some of this stuff in some RO, if the math works out and the test kit sound, I'll assume there something to do with biology affecting my tank readings.

 

[bruno3047]

I began the ugly stage about 3 weeks ago, with brownish hairy algae and diatoms. (looked like em under the scope) It got pretty ugly...
The hair seemed to die down a lot, and diatoms mostly gone, I got excited that I had navigated that well.. but then cyano began and there's lots now.
(I have had Dinoflagellates Since July 14th.. they died down mid November.. I wont say gone yet.. but I think so)

I noticed my 2 of my three hammers looking less colorful this week (much.. I'd say "bleaching"), and the other hammer and torch seem to extend a little less (not clamped.. but not all out). All my coral has looked great from placing each in the tank 'til last week. Most still seem ok 'cept the hammers.

I tested (Tank chemistry was stable for a while.. so I got a little lazy.. weekly instead of daily, then bi weekly) and I see zero Phosphates and some increase in Nitrite now.(0.1 now) My thinking is the hair algae consumed the Phosphate. No idea why the nitrite increase.

--- My main concern is saving my Hammers... what is my next best step? ---

I began feeding more, in the hopes to get measurable Phosphate (pellet food).. but I just drove the Nitrates and Nitrites up instead.

I do 10% water changes every week, and usually a 20% once a month when I do the deep clean (filter sponge, gravel vac, etc..)
Tank was new July 5th, it's a Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon.
Data below (I have more data points, trying to be "breif")

Notes:
New light on Nov 9th - 3 hours at 85% blues, 70% white, 10% red with 2 hour ramp up, 2hr ramp down. (Aquaticlife Reef LED)
The tank was Fallow from Sept 20 to Dec 4 (ick.. maybe velvet, dunno.. gone now though..)
I dose 1ML of fuel a week, Reef Roids once a week (1/16th tsp, direct fed) since Nov 11th
I added Copepods and Phyto(10ml) Dec 11th
I add 1/2 dropper of Rhodo Feast once a week since Dec 11th and now Alternate the Reef Roids and Coral Feast since then as well (still only once a week)

Life in the tank...
3 Hammers(2X1 head and 5 head), a Torch(1 head), 2 leptoseris frags, 2 Cyphostrea, a 6 head Duncan, a Toadstool, some GSP, a Ricordia florida, 2 heads of Goniastrea, 3 hermits, an emerald mithrax, 7 snails (3 Astrea, 2 Nas, 1 Marg, 1 Cerith, 2 Nerite), and a Goniopora
All appear well except the now pale hammer, and the torch not extending quite as much.

Again... I just want to keep my Hammers and other coral healthy (and the fish) .. I'm not a vain tank person, and am ok with the ugly stage (felt like an accomplishment to get to it). I also don't "chase numbers", but I am aware, and do have goals once the tank is established (the commonly accepted/published "good" levels)

Can anyone point out a next step, or things to add, stop, or continue?
Thanks is advance.

“I began feeding more,”

Answers the “why are my nitites going higher” question. Nitrites are toxic.

 

[bruno3047]

I began the ugly stage about 3 weeks ago, with brownish hairy algae and diatoms. (looked like em under the scope) It got pretty ugly...
The hair seemed to die down a lot, and diatoms mostly gone, I got excited that I had navigated that well.. but then cyano began and there's lots now.
(I have had Dinoflagellates Since July 14th.. they died down mid November.. I wont say gone yet.. but I think so)

I noticed my 2 of my three hammers looking less colorful this week (much.. I'd say "bleaching"), and the other hammer and torch seem to extend a little less (not clamped.. but not all out). All my coral has looked great from placing each in the tank 'til last week. Most still seem ok 'cept the hammers.

I tested (Tank chemistry was stable for a while.. so I got a little lazy.. weekly instead of daily, then bi weekly) and I see zero Phosphates and some increase in Nitrite now.(0.1 now) My thinking is the hair algae consumed the Phosphate. No idea why the nitrite increase.

--- My main concern is saving my Hammers... what is my next best step? ---

I began feeding more, in the hopes to get measurable Phosphate (pellet food).. but I just drove the Nitrates and Nitrites up instead.

I do 10% water changes every week, and usually a 20% once a month when I do the deep clean (filter sponge, gravel vac, etc..)
Tank was new July 5th, it's a Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon.
Data below (I have more data points, trying to be "breif")

Notes:
New light on Nov 9th - 3 hours at 85% blues, 70% white, 10% red with 2 hour ramp up, 2hr ramp down. (Aquaticlife Reef LED)
The tank was Fallow from Sept 20 to Dec 4 (ick.. maybe velvet, dunno.. gone now though..)
I dose 1ML of fuel a week, Reef Roids once a week (1/16th tsp, direct fed) since Nov 11th
I added Copepods and Phyto(10ml) Dec 11th
I add 1/2 dropper of Rhodo Feast once a week since Dec 11th and now Alternate the Reef Roids and Coral Feast since then as well (still only once a week)

Life in the tank...
3 Hammers(2X1 head and 5 head), a Torch(1 head), 2 leptoseris frags, 2 Cyphostrea, a 6 head Duncan, a Toadstool, some GSP, a Ricordia florida, 2 heads of Goniastrea, 3 hermits, an emerald mithrax, 7 snails (3 Astrea, 2 Nas, 1 Marg, 1 Cerith, 2 Nerite), and a Goniopora
All appear well except the now pale hammer, and the torch not extending quite as much.

Again... I just want to keep my Hammers and other coral healthy (and the fish) .. I'm not a vain tank person, and am ok with the ugly stage (felt like an accomplishment to get to it). I also don't "chase numbers", but I am aware, and do have goals once the tank is established (the commonly accepted/published "good" levels)

Can anyone point out a next step, or things to add, stop, or continue?
Thanks is advance.

Corals bleach because they aren’t happy. They are in distress. Period. It’s not always because of this or that.

 

[BWV]

Corals bleach because they aren’t happy. They are in distress. Period. It’s not always because of this or that.

I'm seeking ways to make them happy

There's got to be a this or a that distressing them. They were doing very well til the ugly stage started.

So far I have:
Reduced my overall light intensity from 85% to 50% (roughly).
Significantly reduced white light while keeping the two blues and near UV.
Added about an hour to the total photo-period.
Resumed feeding "normal" amounts.
Paused water changes for now. (I will do 10% this weekend)
Placed my Leptos a little lower in the tank... seemed to help one a little.
Got my alkalinity back up from 7ish to 9ish.
Begun lightly dosing phosphates (still immeasurable).

I don't want to make much larger changes til I observe for a bit.

I will say my GSP, Toadstool, and Cyphostrea appear to be thriving right now.
My brownish hair algae is not gone, but now takes a week to be noticable on the glass.
The cyano has pretty much left, I dont seen anymore sign of dinos.

I think I may see a little improvement in the big torch, color wise. I might be talking myself into it though.
I did notice, that one head seems to now be looking like its going to be two.

Oh.. and for some reason, I think my 4 blue leg hermies jacked my first red leg... he was murdered while I was at a conference last week... (That emerald is looking a little guilty right now too... ).

I'll test everything tomorrow and post what I get.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice!

 

[bruno3047]

I'm seeking ways to make them happy

There's got to be a this or a that distressing them. They were doing very well til the ugly stage started.

So far I have:
Reduced my overall light intensity from 85% to 50% (roughly).
Significantly reduced white light while keeping the two blues and near UV.
Added about an hour to the total photo-period.
Resumed feeding "normal" amounts.
Paused water changes for now. (I will do 10% this weekend)
Placed my Leptos a little lower in the tank... seemed to help one a little.
Got my alkalinity back up from 7ish to 9ish.
Begun lightly dosing phosphates (still immeasurable).

I don't want to make much larger changes til I observe for a bit.

I will say my GSP, Toadstool, and Cyphostrea appear to be thriving right now.
My brownish hair algae is not gone, but now takes a week to be noticable on the glass.
The cyano has pretty much left, I dont seen anymore sign of dinos.

I think I may see a little improvement in the big torch, color wise. I might be talking myself into it though.
I did notice, that one head seems to now be looking like its going to be two.

Oh.. and for some reason, I think my 4 blue leg hermies jacked my first red leg... he was murdered while I was at a conference last week... (That emerald is looking a little guilty right now too... ).

I'll test everything tomorrow and post what I get.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice!

My best guess would be the rise in nitrite levels stressed the corals. All those things that you were battling were YOUR battle. With the “ugly stage” as you called it. Not the corals’. They were fine. When you started overfeeding to pump up phosphates i.e. “chasing numbers”, that’s when your troubles started. That’s what I see. BTW. Generally speaking, torch corals are much more sensitive to declining water quality than anything else you have. If they go limp, you have a problem.

 

[Eric R.]

You can also "rent" a par meter from BRS. Buy it and then return it, minus the restocking fee. Being able to measure PAR and PO4 levels more accurately may give you a better idea of what's going on in your tank. Think of it as good investments to keep your corals healthy.

 

[BostonReefer300]

My best guess would be the rise in nitrite levels stressed the corals. All those things that you were battling were YOUR battle. With the “ugly stage” as you called it. Not the corals’. They were fine. When you started overfeeding to pump up phosphates i.e. “chasing numbers”, that’s when your troubles started. That’s what I see. BTW. Generally speaking, torch corals are much more sensitive to declining water quality than anything else you have. If they go limp, you have a problem.

In a cycled tank, ammonia and nitrite are nothing to worry about unless something very large dies. The biological filter clears/converts both very quickly.
In any case, some corals get irritated easily and there's plenty to irritate them during the uglies. Just have patience, keep doing regular water changes with good quality salt, make sure your NO3 (I keep mine in the mid single digits) and PO4 (I keep mine around 0.06ppm and I measure with Hanna HI 736 ultra low phosphorus) don't go too high or too low, keep your Alk as stable as you can, and make sure you have enough Ca and Mg.
Things will settle down eventually and you'll be helping others through the uglies on R2R in no time!

 

[bruno3047]

In a cycled tank, ammonia and nitrite are nothing to worry about unless something very large dies. The biological filter clears/converts both very quickly.
In any case, some corals get irritated easily and there's plenty to irritate them during the uglies. Just have patience, keep doing regular water changes with good quality salt, make sure your NO3 (I keep mine in the mid single digits) and PO4 (I keep mine around 0.06ppm and I measure with Hanna HI 736 ultra low phosphorus) don't go too high or too low, keep your Alk as stable as you can, and make sure you have enough Ca and Mg.
Things will settle down eventually and you'll be helping others through the uglies on R2R in no time.

Hopefully the OP will get his tank back up to snuff in short order.

 

[BWV]

My best guess would be the rise in nitrite levels stressed the corals. All those things that you were battling were YOUR battle. With the “ugly stage” as you called it. Not the corals’. They were fine. When you started overfeeding to pump up phosphates i.e. “chasing numbers”, that’s when your troubles started. That’s what I see. BTW. Generally speaking, torch corals are much more sensitive to declining water quality than anything else you have. If they go limp, you have a problem.

I just want to clarify a couple things.

As tone is sometimes hard to read on forums, I'm smiling and happy and just want to share an understanding of my scenario. (I'm not defensive...I beleive your post to have indicated some misunderstanding of the order or events and my intentions)

I don't believe I ever really "overfed". I just fed a little(10%?) more because my nutrient levels dropped, and I didn't want to begin using chemicals, when I have creatures that could convert the food to those nutrients for me the same way they do in the ocean.

I didn't raise any parameters, that I test for, any higher than they had been the whole time I've have the tank, nor did the nitrite ever reach levels commonly considered toxic. (Below 0.25 is what I understand to be considered non toxic and there's a lot of question of nitrite toxicity in marine aquariums...I beleive a lot of nitrite talk is anecdotal)

I also wanted to share that I didn't begin to try adjustment until after my corals bleached to a point I was uncomfortable with. (I began feeding more because they bleached and I then measured low nutrients trying to figure out why. I didn't alter stuff and then see changes in the hammers)

I can comfortably say that the current changes in my methods did not cause this.
I will say that I believe not measuring par with the new lamp because I was too cheap to buy or rent a meter, figuring I could "eyeball it", and the poor husbandry of not noticing how far my alkalinity, phos, and nitrate had dropped over so long, contributed. I was quite hung up on pH, Calcium, and Magnesium and had them stable, but not worried about the others after cycling, and seeing them pretty steady for months. I just kinda thought "alkalinity fluctuates" til it got below 7. I also figured I did not have to worry about low nutrients as much because I had them below levels (meaning, I wasn't worried of keeping them up, but rather just below numbers)
Water changes kept my alkalinity ok for so long, I never viewed it as a consumable till I shut the house up for winter and now it is diving (I do understand the"why" of that)

I don't feel I'm chasing numbers. ( I did that with my freshwater tank 25 years ago and learned to calm down and watch a little) but instead using data that I have found, via careful testing, and also reaching out to those who know for ideas, to try and get my tank closer to numbers I had when the coral were happy.

I do appreciate all of the input and advice.

 

[Aqua Man]

2.5ml of Neophos in, (.5ml 2 days ago, 1ml yesterday, 1ml this morning) and I don't see any indication it's there.
There's got to be a little, as I am seeing some bright green algae in a corner.

I’m not surprised. Rock, sand, coral and all other life in your tank is using PO4. Witnessed this very thing in my tanks and many reefers report the same when a tank is PO4 limited. The phosphate is getting used up in 24 hrs.

That’s why I suggested to test 1 hr after dose of Neophos.

 

[BWV]

I’m not surprised. Rock, sand, coral and all other life in your tank is using PO4. Witnessed this very thing in my tanks and many reefers report the same when a tank is PO4 limited. The phosphate is getting used up in 24 hrs.

That’s why I suggested to test 1 hr after dose of Neophos.

Thanks!!!
Will do!

 

[BWV]

Did the clean, vac, and 20% water change today (Evo 13.5..2 gal) ..cleaned the pump, the pipe and nozzles, the sponge, the sump, new carbon, new floss. Figured I'd find somethig ugly or dead somewhere.. nothin'.
I wasn't going to change water for a while, but it's hard for me to pass on that.

I inquired with Apogee about buying just a refurb PAR sensor to use with my multimeter... we'll see how that goes when they get back to me. If it's too much to justify, I'll rent, or maybe just buy a Seneye to try and figure out where I am lit.

Tank chemistry is here after the change:

 

[BWV]

I did test my phosphate test kit... it's fine.

1ml of neophos in 3.8 liters adds .25ppm, or, 0.1ml in 95ml=1ppm
Using that math, and some unused 1.026 water, I tested and the Salifert kit is dead on at each range on the card up to 1ppm (didn't test further).

I think, like Aqua Man said... the PO4 is being used right away.

I do want to be careful not to "feed" the algae... so I am not sure how much to dose, but do want my coral to have what it needs and the water to be in balance.

 

[BWV]

Just ordered a refurbished Apogee Sensor to build a PAR meter Nice folks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My best guess would be the rise in nitrite levels stressed the corals. All those things that you were battling were YOUR battle. With the “ugly stage” as you called it. Not the corals’. They were fine. When you started overfeeding to pump up phosphates i.e. “chasing numbers”, that’s when your troubles started. That’s what I see. BTW. Generally speaking, torch corals are much more sensitive to declining water quality than anything else you have. If they go limp, you have a problem.

Do you have any data suggesting nitrite is toxic to corals?

The data I have seen shows no toxicity in marine systems at less than 10 ppm nitrite.

Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[melonheadorion]

I’m not surprised. Rock, sand, coral and all other life in your tank is using PO4. Witnessed this very thing in my tanks and many reefers report the same when a tank is PO4 limited. The phosphate is getting used up in 24 hrs.

That’s why I suggested to test 1 hr after dose of Neophos.

with your experience, will rock/substrate stop taking the phosphate? im in the same situation right now, where i dose phosphate because of little to no phosphate reading, regardless of how much i dose

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

with your experience, will rock/substrate stop taking the phosphate? im in the same situation right now, where i dose phosphate because of little to no phosphate reading, regardless of how much i dose

IMO, it depends on what you mean by that.

At any given phosphate concentration in that water, there is a single fixed amount that will bind. if you try to raise the level in the water, more will bind. if you try to lower it, some will come off.

Since much of the available calcium carbonate surfaces are not in immediate rapid contact with the bulk water (down in sand, inside pores, etc.), it can take time to reach that equilibrium.

Sufficient dosing will eventually saturated available surface sites for the given phosphate concentration you are trying to attain.

 

[melonheadorion]

IMO, it depends on what you mean by that.

At any given phosphate concentration in that water, there is a single fixed amount that will bind. if you try to raise the level in the water, more will bind. if you try to lower it, some will come off.

Since much of the available calcium carbonate surfaces are not in immediate rapid contact with the bulk water (down in sand, inside pores, etc.), it can take time to reach that equilibrium.

Sufficient dosing will eventually saturated available surface sites for the given phosphate concentration you are trying to attain.

thats exactly what i was questioning. thanks for that. it is what i figured would be the case