Why there is not really a cure for ich?

[Gareth elliott]

The higher temps is a freshwater ich treatment. These are 2 different parasites. Freshwater Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, marine Cryptocaryon irritans. In freshwater it has adapted to the many different parameters of different bodies of water, one of these adaptations is the speed of its life cycle is temperature dependent. Ie winter on the Great Lakes it may take 6-7 weeks to complete its life cycle, but 1 week in the amazon river. Freshwater aquarists use this to reduce fallow period(at least how i use it, heat the dt, salt in qt). Marine Ich on the other hand does best at the temps we keep our tanks already 23–30°C. There are documented cases outside this temperature, most likely strains from deepwater fish. But they are the exception in the hobby not the rule. So for marine speeding up the life cycle with temperature is not really an option to reduce the fallow period, since at above 30°C(86°F) you are risking killing your bacteria and all your inverts.

 

[Diesel]

I must say in general after I did a small experience about two years back with bringing the temps up that the Ick did slowed down a bit.
I know that the term raising the temps for ick comes out the freshwater side but with a fast pace of the salty side of this hobby in the last 10 years the behavior on many deceases are changed as well.
It ain't and I'm repeating that raising the temps ain't a cure but for sure it slowed down the process, not only myself experience that in a QT but many ppl in the hobby.
I've always thought about the idea to set up a basic tank and introduce fish in there that have Ick and see how long it will take that the ticking time (ick) bomb will burst.
Then again I'm thinking how would you let your dog go through life with fleas and just control it by feeding your dog with Garlic and overfeed it with good healthy food and let him be in a high temp environment just to control it.............. I know not the same but just saying that the dog will be really uncomfortable, talking about animal cruelty.
Now we come to a point "animal cruelty" maybe that's the term we should start using if you don't quarantine your livestock for the better of their life as it is in the hobbyist hands, I'm all for it.
My daughter who will soon attend the University of Hawaii in Manoa to become a marine biologist is stressing me to have 12 fish in a 200 gallon tank and the biggest is a 5" bandit.
I have to agree with her that I could have less fish and for that I didn't bought a fish in the last 18 months as that was a Interruptus angel.
She also became a member of the SSCS and it's a eye opener if you see it from both sides.

 

[Forsaken77]

Either you read my post the other day, or we think alike in some respects. After 20+ years of having a harsh chemical, like copper, be your best cure, it's obvious that nothing is being done to advance treatments in fish besides the psuedo-science from companies that make supplements.

A pharmaceutical company could probably have a reef safe cure in a few years, if not less. But there's obviously nobody on that scale looking into marine disease cures.

It's also worthy to note the probably 1000% increase in fatal diseases on fish in the hobby over the past 2 decades.

I think it's worth looking into because obviously these diseases have exponentially exploded in the oceans. The only reason it doesn't get noticed is because of the vast bodies of water that dilute the diseases. But if you take the life cycle of how ich works, having one cyst release thousands of new parasites over and over again, imagine this happening in the ocean on a grand scale, which is why we are seeing so many contaminated fish.

20 years ago it was so rare to have a diseased fish, that QT's were an after thought... only needed as hospital tanks IF a fish ever got sick. And penicillin used to be used back then as well. I could go to the dirtiest fish store and just dump the fish in my DT without even a concern of contamination.

But this issue is bigger than just the aquarium trade. This is a planetary thing affecting aquatic life and we're a small section that just happens to notice what's going on.

 

[atoll]

I think this is a subject myself and Paul B should keep well clear of

 

[jeff williams]

The cure is honestly to qt your fish and everything wet that goes into your tank this includes corals snails macroalgea etc and we have heard that nothing good in this hobby happens fast. Most people are very impatient “me included “ but I have learned to qt everything wet and be patient and yes it does try my patience daily when you got a special coral and a spot already picked out in your dt for it. With all this in mind there are ways to speed up a qt process but it comes with additional risk.

 

[aquaregia]

Owing to a full tank crash as a result of hurricane Irma I lost all my fish and better than half of my coral last September. In restocking I am fortunate to live about 75 miles from Orlando and WorldWide Corals. This is definitely one of the premier LFS in the entire country. In December I bought six fish and added them all at once without quarantine. My DT had, in essence become a quarantine tank-fishless for 3 months. The very knowledgable staff at WWC recommended I buy a bottle of Dr G's anti-bacterial Caviar and a bottle of their anti-parasitic Caviar to feed intermittently with regular frozen food as a prophylactic measure. I was skeptical and was ready to say not interested but realized these folks know what they're talking about so why not. I have had a couple of instances where fish did not seem totally healthy, the worst problem being some fin rot on a mimic tang. I used the products, and they did seem to be helpful. At the moment, everyone is healthy, happy, fat and sassy! My opinion is that if you have very sick fish they probably would be be ineffective(definitely if fish not eating) but as a preventive as soon as you see something that is alarming, might be a good thing to try. Using these products seems to have had no adverse side effects. As a disclaimer--this info is based on anecdotal experience only, and I have no vested interest in either WWC or Dr G's Aquaculture. The active ingredients in anti bacterial caviar are Knamycin and Metronidazole. In the Anti parasitic caviar the active ingredient is Chloraquine Phosphate.

 

[EmdeReef]

Either you read my post the other day, or we think alike in some respects. After 20+ years of having a harsh chemical, like copper, be your best cure, it's obvious that nothing is being done to advance treatments in fish besides the psuedo-science from companies that make supplements.

A pharmaceutical company could probably have a reef safe cure in a few years, if not less. But there's obviously nobody on that scale looking into marine disease cures.

It's also worthy to note the probably 1000% increase in fatal diseases on fish in the hobby over the past 2 decades.

I think it's worth looking into because obviously these diseases have exponentially exploded in the oceans. The only reason it doesn't get noticed is because of the vast bodies of water that dilute the diseases. But if you take the life cycle of how ich works, having one cyst release thousands of new parasites over and over again, imagine this happening in the ocean on a grand scale, which is why we are seeing so many contaminated fish.

20 years ago it was so rare to have a diseased fish, that QT's were an after thought... only needed as hospital tanks IF a fish ever got sick. And penicillin used to be used back then as well. I could go to the dirtiest fish store and just dump the fish in my DT without even a concern of contamination.

But this issue is bigger than just the aquarium trade. This is a planetary thing affecting aquatic life and we're a small section that just happens to notice what's going on.

The reason why we still use copper is cost and availability. CP which is arguably not as harsh is effective but much more expensive and less available. There are other medicines and treatments which are perhaps less harsh over longer term that have been successfully tried on fish farms and labs but are cost prohibitive.

It costs ~1b to develop a new drug, and veterinary drugs are not too far off. I don't know for sure but I agree with you that probably no pharmaceutical company is even looking into making a "reef safe" medicine. It would be impossible to guarantee that a drug would be reasonably safe for hundreds if not thousands of different organisms we keep in our tanks when it's so difficult to prove safety within a handful related species. If you think about it, none of the medications that have actually been proven to work in our hobby have been specifically made or discovered for fish.

You bring a very interesting point about the apparent spike in diseases which perhaps could be related to the fact that we communicate more, or the fact that there are fewer wholesalers and retailers and more fish is coming from the same source or something completely different... I'm not sure there's conclusive evidence to show the rate of diseases in the ocean has increased although certainly temperature is a major catalyst, add to that other stresses such as pollution etc and in a combo it all could be weakening fish immunity...

 

[Reef Stu]

Either you read my post the other day, or we think alike in some respects. After 20+ years of having a harsh chemical, like copper, be your best cure, it's obvious that nothing is being done to advance treatments in fish besides the psuedo-science from companies that make supplements.

A pharmaceutical company could probably have a reef safe cure in a few years, if not less. But there's obviously nobody on that scale looking into marine disease cures.

It's also worthy to note the probably 1000% increase in fatal diseases on fish in the hobby over the past 2 decades.

I think it's worth looking into because obviously these diseases have exponentially exploded in the oceans. The only reason it doesn't get noticed is because of the vast bodies of water that dilute the diseases. But if you take the life cycle of how ich works, having one cyst release thousands of new parasites over and over again, imagine this happening in the ocean on a grand scale, which is why we are seeing so many contaminated fish.

20 years ago it was so rare to have a diseased fish, that QT's were an after thought... only needed as hospital tanks IF a fish ever got sick. And penicillin used to be used back then as well. I could go to the dirtiest fish store and just dump the fish in my DT without even a concern of contamination.

But this issue is bigger than just the aquarium trade. This is a planetary thing affecting aquatic life and we're a small section that just happens to notice what's going on.

I lost fish to ich 20+ years ago. Could of been velvet. In fact I had plenty of setbacks when I started keeping saltwater fish in the 90s

 

[Dai89]

All known treatments for ich are fatal for sessile invertebrates. AFAIK and understand, bith sessile invertebrates and pathogens like ich (and whatever marine velvet is) are more sensitive to the levels of copper or salinity than fish are, level chloroquine phosphate in the water column is another. As awesome as it sounds it looks like it is impossible to create a treatment/medication that could specifically target pathogens and leave desirable inverts alone.

 

[Dai89]

I'm pretty sure QTing would end up being cheaper either way, all you need is a large enough rubbermaid tub, air stone and sponge filter and effort at the very least

 

[Mark Gray]

I won't say much but I have kept salt water fish for about 40 years now. I think Paul B's And Lasse approach is best IMP

 

[Sarah24!]

I went from a 125 to a 240 tank in November. My old 125 I have never ever had ick. I stored my corals and fish at my local fish store. After I put them in and waited about a month I added a nice powder blue. Within two weeks the blue had ick, and croaked in two days. But it also contaminated my large blonde naso, and my old orange shoulder. Good luck trying to catch these fish in a reef tank, and I have tiny hands). So to save my other fish a blue hippo and double banned tang and my clowns, I ran a uv sterilizer (2 actually) for three weeks straight fed twice daily, w garlic. I managed to save them. Now I’m terrified to add fish. I don’t have anything to run my own qt tank. None of my lfs will copper qt their new fish. So you will never know if they have it or not because it’s dormant and can stay dormant in the sand and or on the fish from what I have read. Now I turn my uv on about every three weeks and it runs 24/7 for two to three weeks. Is this great no, but I’m trying to kill them during the swim cycle. Any other suggestions would be great.

 

[Dai89]

I went from a 125 to a 240 tank in November. My old 125 I have never ever had ick. I stored my corals and fish at my local fish store. After I put them in and waited about a month I added a nice powder blue. Within two weeks the blue had ick, and croaked in two days. But it also contaminated my large blonde naso, and my old orange shoulder. Good luck trying to catch these fish in a reef tank, and I have tiny hands). So to save my other fish a blue hippo and double banned tang and my clowns, I ran a uv sterilizer (2 actually) for three weeks straight fed twice daily, w garlic. I managed to save them. Now I’m terrified to add fish. I don’t have anything to run my own qt tank. None of my lfs will copper qt their new fish. So you will never know if they have it or not because it’s dormant and can stay dormant in the sand and or on the fish from what I have read. Now I turn my uv on about every three weeks and it runs 24/7 for two to three weeks. Is this great no, but I’m trying to kill them during the swim cycle. Any other suggestions would be great.

I know it'll be tedious and tricky, but the best option is to catch all the fish and put them in the 125 if you still have it, let the display sit fallow (which can help your corals too[emoji3]) and qt the fish. I've heard and could be wrong that UV helps manage pathogens, but the UV can't treat all of the water at once

 

[Mark Gray]

I still like this approach
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-birthday-40-years.55423/

 

[Sarah24!]

I would also like to add that everyone says to raise the temp to above 80-83. Well most corals would die at that temp. My tank is set at 78 which I have been told is the prime temp. But anything over 80 would be like global warming in the ocean, which if you look at the barrier reef it has bleached and lots of coral have died because of temp spikes. Why would we do that in our main tank and risk losing the coral also?

 

[Sarah24!]

Hi

I know it'll be tedious and tricky, but the best option is to catch all the fish and put them in the 125 if you still have it, let the display sit fallow (which can help your corals too[emoji3]) and qt the fish. I've heard and could be wrong that UV helps manage pathogens, but the UV can't treat all of the water at once

I don’t have that tank any more sadly. But the uv will treat all the water if postioned correctly. I ran one my sump tank and one in the display. They ran 24/7 which means they should have cycled the entire tank in theory, I could be wrong but it worked this time.

 

[Mark Gray]

I would also like to add that everyone says to raise the temp to above 80-83. Well most corals would die at that temp. My tank is set at 78 which I have been told is the prime temp. But anything over 80 would be like global warming in the ocean, which if you look at the barrier reef it has bleached and lots of coral have died because of temp spikes. Why would we do that in our main tank and risk losing the coral also?

Well that,s really not true my tank got to 86 last summer and everything lived. I have a friend in India and his tank is 80 at the coolest, same with my friend in the Philippines

 

[Newb73]

This is the exception and not the rule. For everyone that can keep a PBT in “ich management tanks” there are 100+ more that fail.

I don't disagree but there are some generalizations we can use observational data to theorize are what makes the difference.

1) Larger tanks (majority)
2) Older established tanks(nearly all)
3) Agressive Feeding (nearly all)
4) Lots of flow (some)
5) Ozone (a subset)
6) UV (a subset)
7) More experienced reefers who know their tanks very well and have spent years figuring out what works for THEIR tanks given THEIR water supply, equipment and suppliers and in whom good reef parameters are maintained without many "swings" (nearly all).

A few others that i hypothesize but can't really show even from obs (because we don't know or it isn't discussed).

1) Buying from suppliers with better handling, feeding, and tx. In the capture and transport.
2) A high level of O2 saturation in tank water
3)Warmer temps in their reefs say...>79

I am sure i am missing a few.

Would be nice if we COULD figure out the criteria required but i believe the above put us on the track.

 

[Newb73]

My daughter who will soon attend the University of Hawaii in Manoa to become a marine biologist is stressing me to have 12 fish in a 200 gallon tank and the biggest is a 5" bandit..

I have 26 or 27 fish in my 225 (and counting). Many are "expert only" like achilles and Anthias.

 

[Newb73]

I would also like to add that everyone says to raise the temp to above 80-83. Well most corals would die at that temp. My tank is set at 78 which I have been told is the prime temp. But anything over 80 would be like global warming in the ocean, which if you look at the barrier reef it has bleached and lots of coral have died because of temp spikes. Why would we do that in our main tank and risk losing the coral also?

If >80 killed corals then explain this (gets up to 83 to 84 sometimes and i only let it go below 78.5 in July and Aug...when i let it go to 77.5 to give a power outage buffer).

I do mount cooling fans to blow across the top of the water on a controller with temp set to activate at 84 from late June to early Sept though.

Look closely at my peak temps...and this is only 85 outside right now....it will get up to 105 and the house will get warmer when summer arrives.