Wild and Captive Bred Bangaii Cardinals - Questions/Discussion

[Cantusaurus]

I had no clue that certain wild fish were still collected, those being for Bangaii Cardinals, and Clownfish. It's very weird to me especially since I have constantly about wild cardinals and how the less than ideal population size. Clownfish is also weird to me as well.
I bring this up since I sometimes go to a saltwater wholesaler to pick up dry goods for my job/clients, as well as sometimes livestock.
Anyways. I always see wild pajama cardinals, and most of the time there are bangaii cardinals, which seem to always be wild caught. They always get wild clowns as well. Sometimes they get some designers, but not many. It is insane to me why this is the case.
I know it has a lot to do with how cheap they are, etc.
So I guess fish stores are getting in wild bangaiis consistently, which is shocking.

Anyways. I have been wanting to add bangaiis for my own tank. I do and don't regret buying two of the cardinals. Part of me did not want to support wild caught fish that should not be wild caught, and part of me wanted to take them since I feel bad for a lot of fish at the wholesalers and I knew I would care for them well.
I put two into a 10 gallon nano tank I have that has a lot of algae and anthelia, as a QT/observation tank, before adding them to my 50 gallon system.
One of them did not look well right away when being acclimated I think I got unlucky and one of them really quickly looked horrible.
I think he had a bad internal parasite. The other one however, is fine. I did a methelyne blue dip before adding them to the tank.
The one alive eats reef nutrition ROE. Looks pretty healthy too.

But I was hoping to have a pair of cardinals.
Does anyone know if you can add a captive bred one to a wild one?
I want to add 1 or 2 more. I know 2 will most likely pair off at some point, but they should be fine with one another when they are still getting used to things.
I have heard though you can't or really should not mix wild and captive clowns since one or the other can become really sick.
Is there truth to this?

Does anyone have experience with wild bangaiis or mixing wild and captive ones

 

[Cheese Griller]

Ironically, bangaiis have actually have become invasive in certain parts of the world. Although unlikely, Those wild-caught fish you see could be sourced from those regions. It is surprising to hear they are still being wild-caught though.

 

[Icedphoenix]

That surprises me to hear. I have a hard time buying fish that are wild caught but are easily tank bred. Planning my new build I have checked every fish and tried to make sure most of the inhabitants are tank bred. I feel it to be the right thing to do if able.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I can understand the basis behind the premise of not mixing wild with captive. Captive in theory would not have been exposed to the same things as a wild would. But all that is thrown out the window once you introduce other fish, coral, live rock, etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had no clue that certain wild fish were still collected, those being for Bangaii Cardinals, and Clownfish. It's very weird to me especially since I have constantly about wild cardinals and how the less than ideal population size. Clownfish is also weird to me as well.
I bring this up since I sometimes go to a saltwater wholesaler to pick up dry goods for my job/clients, as well as sometimes livestock.
Anyways. I always see wild pajama cardinals, and most of the time there are bangaii cardinals, which seem to always be wild caught. They always get wild clowns as well. Sometimes they get some designers, but not many. It is insane to me why this is the case.
I know it has a lot to do with how cheap they are, etc.
So I guess fish stores are getting in wild bangaiis consistently, which is shocking.

Anyways. I have been wanting to add bangaiis for my own tank. I do and don't regret buying two of the cardinals. Part of me did not want to support wild caught fish that should not be wild caught, and part of me wanted to take them since I feel bad for a lot of fish at the wholesalers and I knew I would care for them well.
I put two into a 10 gallon nano tank I have that has a lot of algae and anthelia, as a QT/observation tank, before adding them to my 50 gallon system.
One of them did not look well right away when being acclimated I think I got unlucky and one of them really quickly looked horrible.
I think he had a bad internal parasite. The other one however, is fine. I did a methelyne blue dip before adding them to the tank.
The one alive eats reef nutrition ROE. Looks pretty healthy too.

But I was hoping to have a pair of cardinals.
Does anyone know if you can add a captive bred one to a wild one?
I want to add 1 or 2 more. I know 2 will most likely pair off at some point, but they should be fine with one another when they are still getting used to things.
I have heard though you can't or really should not mix wild and captive clowns since one or the other can become really sick.
Is there truth to this?

Does anyone have experience with wild bangaiis or mixing wild and captive ones

There is a good reason to avoid wild caught Banggai and to avoid mixing wild and captive raised. Here is a write-up I did about the issue:


Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This fish was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.


Jay

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

There is a good reason to avoid wild caught Banggai and to avoid mixing wild and captive raised. Here is a write-up I did about the issue:
Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)
A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009).
Jay

Jay, are the Banggai the only carriers of the Iridovirus, or can they catch it from other means? ie; other fish, organics, corals etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, are the Banggai the only carriers of the Iridovirus, or can they catch it from other means? ie; other fish, organics, corals etc.

IDK - the Banggai was the fish that suffered the high mortality from it. Just a guess, but I think they acquired it from some other species in the supply chain. The reason I say that is that the first Banggai I got when they were first rediscovered (early 1990s) were really hardy. the mortality didn't start until after they had been in the collection trade for a while. Also, the captive raised ones, that do not go through the supply chain, are fine.

Jay

 

[Cantusaurus]

IDK - the Banggai was the fish that suffered the high mortality from it. Just a guess, but I think they acquired it from some other species in the supply chain. The reason I say that is that the first Banggai I got when they were first rediscovered (early 1990s) were really hardy. the mortality didn't start until after they had been in the collection trade for a while. Also, the captive raised ones, that do not go through the supply chain, are fine.

Jay

The excerpt you sent from you was very interesting. That makes sense. I appreciate the information.

 

[Cantusaurus]

IDK - the Banggai was the fish that suffered the high mortality from it. Just a guess, but I think they acquired it from some other species in the supply chain. The reason I say that is that the first Banggai I got when they were first rediscovered (early 1990s) were really hardy. the mortality didn't start until after they had been in the collection trade for a while. Also, the captive raised ones, that do not go through the supply chain, are fine.

Jay

Do you also have any knowledge about the "Cleaner" Gobies (the Elactinus species).
I have tried three times to keep these guys. 1 sharknose, 1 Neon, and 1 Red Head.
They were all captive bred.
They all looked super well, but over a couple weeks to a month. Each developed the white pimple like disease that seems to be fairly common. They would remain active and look fine, but they ended up dying. The red head would look better, then get a bit more of the white things again. He would get it off and on. He lasted for about 2 months, but eventually I just stopped seeing him. He was a great eater and was fat, so not sure why.
Do you know what disease I am talking about and what it is?

It looks like this. Is this a virus of some sort?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you also have any knowledge about the "Cleaner" Gobies (the Elactinus species).
I have tried three times to keep these guys. 1 sharknose, 1 Neon, and 1 Red Head.
They were all captive bred.
They all looked super well, but over a couple weeks to a month. Each developed the white pimple like disease that seems to be fairly common. They would remain active and look fine, but they ended up dying. The red head would look better, then get a bit more of the white things again. He would get it off and on. He lasted for about 2 months, but eventually I just stopped seeing him. He was a great eater and was fat, so not sure why.
Do you know what disease I am talking about and what it is?

It looks like this. Is this a virus of some sort?

I’ve seen that on other people’s gobies, but never one where I could do a skin scrape on it to see what’s up.
In some cases (not this one) I think it is just ich trophonts that look different on a small fish.
It could be viral, but possibly it is a xenoma from a microsporidian, neither would be treatable with medication though.
Jay

 

[Cantusaurus]

I’ve seen that on other people’s gobies, but never one where I could do a skin scrape on it to see what’s up.
In some cases (not this one) I think it is just ich trophonts that look different on a small fish.
It could be viral, but possibly it is a xenoma from a microsporidian, neither would be treatable with medication though.
Jay

Hmmm ok. Thanks for the input. Yeah, I think I have seen it on other gobies, but I have seen it most often in the cleaner gobies. Yeah, sometimes it does look like ich, but often it protrudes and looks like the photo.
That is unfortunate that it most likely is not treatable though.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Hmmm ok. Thanks for the input. Yeah, I think I have seen it on other gobies, but I have seen it most often in the cleaner gobies. Yeah, sometimes it does look like ich, but often it protrudes and looks like the photo.
That is unfortunate that it most likely is not treatable though.

I have had my neon cleaner for a bit more than 6 months now, which was also CB. In the first 6 weeks I think he got it twice, thought it was ick at first, but it would be next to impossible to remove from my tank for treatment, nobody else seemed affected. He has been fine ever since, fat and happy. I have heard about issues with CB gobies, maybe I just got a hardier one.