Yet another Phosphate management Discussion

[Treefer32]

I know this is over discussed. But, wanted to refocus and determine the best place to spend time and money on phosphate management.

My phosphates were through the roof on my 340 gallon display and 75 gallon sump. Corals were definitely not happy with this.

So, Here's a brief timeline and testing of what I've done:

1/24 submitted ICP test to see what might be causing coral problems:
* Phosphorous detected at 184
* phosphates at .556

Did 85 gallon water change, purchased Hana ULR phosphate checker.
1/28 Hana ULR phosphate checker came in at .66
1/28 Did another 85 gallon water change
1/29 Did another 20 gallon water change
1/29 retested phosphates .55
1/29 added in gfo based resin phosphate remover (500 ml) in my cannister filter
1/30 Phosphates tested at .32
1/31 (Yesterday) Did another 20 gallon water change, replaced my 25 micron cannister filter cartridge (to increase water throughput of cannister filter and filter media) Rinsed GFO Resin with RODI water and placed back in cannister filter.
1/31 Tested Fresh RODI water mixed at room temp (68 degrees) to 1.026 salinity with temp correcting calibrated refrac. Phosphates in the newly mixed water were .03. DI shows 0 TDS. And when I make new RODI water I make it in large batches to avoid TDS creep. I make 75 gallons at a time. (Top and bottom float switches detect when low and refill the bin until the top float switches are triggered.
2/1 will do another 20 gallon water change and retest phosphates after the 20 gallon water change.


To me .03 ppm of phosphates in my new salt water is actually lower than I expected. When salts say no phosphates, I don't believe that. I had someone tell me I'm exasperating my issues by adding phosphates back in with water changes. To me, my food adds way more phosphates per day than the .03 in my water change. (+/- .01) I could place a bag of low capacity GFO in my new water reservoir just to absorb what little is there. To me that seems like a waste of effort and energy and money to maintain 0 phosphates in water change water.

I'm hopeful today that maybe my phosphates will be under .2. My acans are already looking much healthier at night, acros have new growth on them in the last 2 days. Starting to see signs of improvement of my corals!

Silly question, but, are fish affected by phosphates? Is there a level too high that it would impede their ability to breathe or cause organ damage? I've seen my fish agression go up since reducing phosphates in the tank. I'm trying to figure out if it's due to reduced feeding or they don't like the change in water quality? Ha!

 

[sunken3]

i have a 250 with a 100 galling sump.. a few months back i noticed my phosphates and nitrates through the roof.. big water changes took the nitrates down pretty easily. Phosphates kept coming back up. between water changes and $$ of GFO i could manage them, but it was expensive and time consuming and they kept coming back up. Then i read about rocks absorbing and leaching the phosphates back out until equilibrium ( which i suppose was happening). i moved over to using Phosphat-E (which is way cheaper and more effective than GFO for reduction). i now have them under control. i would be careful with Phosphat-E as i have heard mixed ideas about what it is.. one of which could kill tangs in high concentration (though I have a ton of tangs and had no issues).

so long story - you may have phosphates leaching back out of your rocks (they stored them over time when you had high parameters). you'll just have to keep sucking them out until they're low again.. and reduce feeding.

 

[Sam22]

I had a faulty Red Sea kit and when I changed to the phosphorus ulr I realised my phosphorus was at 143. I’ve been using rowaphos 3 teaspoons in a reactor on a 70 gallon total and tested daily at first it would drop the first day then go back up now I’m getting nearly a week out of the rowaphos so it’s definitely getting the phosphate out from the rocks leaching

 

[Treefer32]

I get the leaching from rocks and sand. Will the .03 in the new RODI water negatively impact the efficiency of reducing the display using a combination of continued water changes (maybe 20 gallons daily for a month or two) and GFO based resin. Or will the .03 phosphates in the new water actually be a detriment?

I don't know if there's some weird exponential thing that if I replace x water with water that has some phosphates in it, somehow that will add to the accumulation of phosphates without actually lowering them?

 

[sunken3]

I get the leaching from rocks and sand. Will the .03 in the new RODI water negatively impact the efficiency of reducing the display using a combination of continued water changes (maybe 20 gallons daily for a month or two) and GFO based resin. Or will the .03 phosphates in the new water actually be a detriment?

I don't know if there's some weird exponential thing that if I replace x water with water that has some phosphates in it, somehow that will add to the accumulation of phosphates without actually lowering them?

TBH i have never tested my new SW for phosphate... maybe i will try that today. I know my RODI is zero.

having phosphate already in your new water is a problem. only in the sense that water changes will take longer (and therefore COST$$ more) to get your parameters under control. I suppose if you were using GFO just to get your new SW lower it could be ok... but still what a waste of time and money. (not sure any of that made sense)...

think of it in simple terms.. a 100 gallon take with 1.0 ppm Po3 .. 50% water change with 0 vs .03ppm

a) new # .5000ppm
b) new # .5150ppm

may not seem like a lot but each subsequent water change does less - second change (same 50%), now you're at -

a) new # .2500ppm
b) new # .2725ppm

as you can see you are fighting the .03ppm. especially when that is about where you want your phos number to be at the end of the day anyway.

what salt mix are you using?

 

[Treefer32]

TBH i have never tested my new SW for phosphate... maybe i will try that today. I know my RODI is zero.

having phosphate already in your new water is a problem. only in the sense that water changes will take longer (and therefore COST$$ more) to get your parameters under control. I suppose if you were using GFO just to get your new SW lower it could be ok... but still what a waste of time and money. (not sure any of that made sense)...

think of it in simple terms.. a 100 gallon take with 1.0 ppm Po3 .. 50% water change with 0 vs .03ppm

a) new # .5000ppm
b) new # .5150ppm

may not seem like a lot but each subsequent water change does less - second change (same 50%), now you're at -

a) new # .2500ppm
b) new # .2725ppm

as you can see you are fighting the .03ppm. especially when that is about where you want your phos number to be at the end of the day anyway.

what salt mix are you using?

Good point! I recently switched from IO to reef crystals. I needed more of the trace elements of Reef Crystals. RODI comes out at 0 TDS. I don't know if I can use the Hana Meter on freshwater to test phosphates without any salt mixed in to see if somehow they're making it through the RODI. The water goes through a softener then through 3 stages of sediment filters then to the two RO membranes then through the DI resin. Which, has been treating me well. The TDS going into the DI Resin is around 10 coming out is zero.

I could see how the .03 is adding to the inefficiency. Ugg. I tested phosphates again tonight. I did 15-20 gallon water change today and yesterday and have replaced the cannister filter and higher flow through the phosphate resin. My phosphates went from .32 (2 days ago) to .52 today (just after feeding). I've been doing daily 15 -20 gallon water changes and the phosphates went up... Urggg... It's only when I do an 85 -100 gallon water change I see a dramatic cut in the phosphates.

I'm not sure what else to do, other than run 1000 ml of GFO, hitting it hard, which will be costly as well, but so are water changes. Why isn't my algae turf scrubber removing more phosphates?

 

[Cabinetman]

I have a 560 gallon full reef which I started using rock from systems that shut down. I soon realized that the rocks were saturated with phosphate. I managed to get them to under .08 which I’m happy with by dosing 1-4 ml ever few days of seaklear pool phosphate remover. I just dose it right into the tank now and let the skimmer and filter sock clear it up. You gotta be super careful not to add to much though. It can kill fish if dosed to strong. But I don’t see any issues. Cheap as dirt to do. A big bottle is like $60 and last a lifetime. Pic of my tank... for reference. I’ve Been using lanthanum for years now. Now I test phosphate every few weeks and dose if needed.

 

[sunken3]

Good point! I recently switched from IO to reef crystals. I needed more of the trace elements of Reef Crystals. RODI comes out at 0 TDS. I don't know if I can use the Hana Meter on freshwater to test phosphates without any salt mixed in to see if somehow they're making it through the RODI. The water goes through a softener then through 3 stages of sediment filters then to the two RO membranes then through the DI resin. Which, has been treating me well. The TDS going into the DI Resin is around 10 coming out is zero.

I could see how the .03 is adding to the inefficiency. Ugg. I tested phosphates again tonight. I did 15-20 gallon water change today and yesterday and have replaced the cannister filter and higher flow through the phosphate resin. My phosphates went from .32 (2 days ago) to .52 today (just after feeding). I've been doing daily 15 -20 gallon water changes and the phosphates went up... Urggg... It's only when I do an 85 -100 gallon water change I see a dramatic cut in the phosphates.

I'm not sure what else to do, other than run 1000 ml of GFO, hitting it hard, which will be costly as well, but so are water changes. Why isn't my algae turf scrubber removing more phosphates?

i had a refugium and a double ATS plus GFO.. phosphates still took forever to get under control.. and i still need to use gfo and/or phosphat-e to keep them in check. on a tank your size small water changes will put you in the poor house before they make a dent in your parameters.. your only options are either a) a large water change (or sieries of large changes) or b) chemical additive to remove them.. i.e. gfo, rowa, phosphat-e.. i use gfo and phosphat-e.. the later is much cheaper and works quicker.. but remember if your rocks are leaching, it will still take a while to cmpletely fix.. (i.e your readings may go way down - phos out of water - but then start to come back - rocks leaching... )

 

[sunken3]

I have a 560 gallon full reef which I started using rock from systems that shut down. I soon realized that the rocks were saturated with phosphate. I managed to get them to under .08 which I’m happy with by dosing 1-4 ml ever few days of seaklear pool phosphate remover. I just dose it right into the tank now and let the skimmer and filter sock clear it up. You gotta be super careful not to add to much though. It can kill fish if dosed to strong. But I don’t see any issues. Cheap as dirt to do. A big bottle is like $60 and last a lifetime. Pic of my tank... for reference. I’ve Been using lanthanum for years now. Now I test phosphate every few weeks and dose if needed.

yep - lanthanum was what i heard can kill tangs if not careful.. but supposed to be amazing for reduction.

 

[Treefer32]

Looks like phosphate-E is the way to go, starting in extremely small doses. Talking 2-3 ml per day at most diluted in some tank water and then dosed to the sump to be filtered out by the 25 micron cannister filter and filter socks. Low doses means less impact to alk, and slower reduction to allow corals to adapt and lower impact to Fish.

I don't see a way to where I need to be without acid washing the rocks which I'm not going to do at this point.

 

[sunken3]

Looks like phosphate-E is the way to go, starting in extremely small doses. Talking 2-3 ml per day at most diluted in some tank water and then dosed to the sump to be filtered out by the 25 micron cannister filter and filter socks. Low doses means less impact to alk, and slower reduction to allow corals to adapt and lower impact to Fish.

I don't see a way to where I need to be without acid washing the rocks which I'm not going to do at this point.

agreed.. i would use P-E at half does to start. and yes... taking the rocks out would be a drastic measure. which likely would create some other bigger issues.

good luck!

 

[LegendaryCG]

Lanthanum chloride - you can select the brand

 

[Cabinetman]

It’ll take months to remove it all from the rocks. Just get a Hanna ultra low range checker and lots of test. I’d test daily for a while to get your dosage down. Then once you get a handle on it you’ll be able to test and dose less frequently. But don’t be surprised when it jumps up pretty much daily at the start. You can either use a lot of lanthanum or a pile of gfo. You just gotta keep the water cleaned up and more will leach out untill you get it all.

 

[sunken3]

It’ll take months to remove it all from the rocks. Just get a Hanna ultra low range checker and lots of test. I’d test daily for a while to get your dosage down. Then once you get a handle on it you’ll be able to test and dose less frequently. But don’t be surprised when it jumps up pretty much daily at the start. You can either use a lot of lanthanum or a pile of gfo. You just gotta keep the water cleaned up and more will leach out untill you get it all.

the GFO will cost soooo much.

 

[Treefer32]

the GFO will cost soooo much.

I can't do the GFO thing. I have rechargeable resin I put in place (it's gfo based resin) but I suspect after 2-3 days it's exhausted. So, I ordered more hana reagent, the phosphate-e and the recharge material for the resin to reuse it once I get the phosphates under control. I've noticed improvements in my corals just getting it lowered some. I'd spend sooo much in high capacity GFO.. I saw a 5 gallon pale of it was $600+ on BRS. I'd probably go through that in 2-3 months. I can't afford that ..... lanthinum chloride it is in very small doses to see the gradual impacts. I hope my 25 micron cannister filter is up for the challenge of removing the bound phosphates.

 

[sunken3]

I can't do the GFO thing. I have rechargeable resin I put in place (it's gfo based resin) but I suspect after 2-3 days it's exhausted. So, I ordered more hana reagent, the phosphate-e and the recharge material for the resin to reuse it once I get the phosphates under control. I've noticed improvements in my corals just getting it lowered some. I'd spend sooo much in high capacity GFO.. I saw a 5 gallon pale of it was $600+ on BRS. I'd probably go through that in 2-3 months. I can't afford that ..... lanthinum chloride it is in very small doses to see the gradual impacts. I hope my 25 micron cannister filter is up for the challenge of removing the bound phosphates.

yep - after a few hundred dollars of HC GFO from BRS i realized this stuff is only good for maintaining a system - not fixing a problem.

 

[Treefer32]

If dreams were horses I'd have a whole rodeo. My hope is that once I get the phosphates under control, balance will be restored, the ATS will grow faster and consume more, and a maintenance regimen of gfo or resin will be all that's needed every 3 months or so. May be a pipe dream. But, a dream none the less.

 

[yak85]

Be Careful!! I use LaCl by diluting 5ml of the SEaKlear phosphate remover into 1 litre of RO water. I put it in a reusable iv bag and drip it slowly at a rate of 1 drop per second into a 10 micron filter sock (a 5 micron sock would be even better but 10 is great). This will take almost 8 hours to fully dose. You don't want to have the precipitate entire into your tank outside of the sock where it could attach itself to the gills of your tangs and kill them. Also, watch your alkalinity while dosing.

 

[Treefer32]

So, I was thinking, of diluting 1-2 ml into 1 gallon of tank water, or even better yet, 5 gallon pale of tank water then, pouring it into 200 micron filter socks. I've read the precipitate is dangerous in large quantities. But if it's already precipitated out in tank water would that still be damaging to fish? My tangs are large, their gills huge. Or is that what makes it dangerous?

I've amped up the duration of lighting on my ATS, I'm going to go through 2-3 2 week cycles of increased lighting running gfo resin and see if the ATS becomes more productive at removing phosphates or not. I have some phosphate-E on the way, but, I don't want to put my fish in danger. And a 10 micron sock seems impossible to find. My 200 micron socks plug up to the point they're over flowing in 15 - 20 hours. My 25 micron cannister pleated filter lasts about 3 weeks before it's just a trickle. So, 10 micron sock wouldn't let any water through it in a matter of a half hour if it did at all to start with.

 

[Treefer32]

Just as a quick update. With running GFO based resin, supposed to have a capacity of 10ppm of phosphates, been running it a week. Tests Monday/ Tuesday were consistent at .52 phosphates. Then Last night I scraped the glass of algae on the front, sides, and back. Tested about 2 hours after that and phosphates were .59. So, .07 ppm just bound up in algae on the glass! I upped my ATS to running lights 24/7. It's screen is full after 4 days of running. Was about 6 days before increasing the lighting schedule.

My LC will arrive today. I think I'm going to premix 1ml in a small glass of tank water to dilute it then let it into the sump to disperse. I'll monitor any effects and dose 1ml daily, should be around .02 ppm per day removal. I'll try that for several days and if there's no adverse effects, I'll up to 2ml per day of LC. That should be between .03 and .04 ppm removal. Within a month it could be under control. I'm thinking of dosing no more than 1 ml at a time. So, if I up to 2 ml I'd do that twice a day 4-5 hours a part.