wrassie86
Active Member
I don't even think they have been able to mimic full properties of a t5 bulb. LED come a long way, but still not the same quality of light. Even my old eyes can say the same when the different types of lights hit them.
Your favorite Metal Halides for Acropora Growth and Coloration
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A. grandis
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Cause they can't. Totally different technologies in many ways, by their nature in physics. The LEDs can try to "mimic", but will never be able to fully supply all qualities of halides, naturally. The amount of UV and intensity alone are the bottom line prohibitive aspects. Besides distribution of photons is very different, and the production of photons and IR would just melt LEDs. Even Kessils couldn't produce the very same glitter lines, for example. They can help your eyes to think they would, but in reality they are very different then halides. The essences of both technologies are so different. They will always serve for different applications and present different results! Just like T5s and halides. We just have to live with the facts and choose what we want to use over our tanks, I guess.
A. grandis
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I normally tell people to ask others outside of the hobby what they would choose. Grandmas are the best... they would almost always tell you halides are much "better". But kids too!
wrassie86
Active Member
When I tried LED my wife always commented the tank looked dim and flat, no brilliance. But I also only like a hint of blue during the photo period.
I see others in here commenting on weird algae, I started to suffer that a few months in, as well as dino outbreak hell I make comments on this maybe 8 mos ago. slammed my MH back on all disappeared within days especially the dino and that was after battling for a while , I don't believe for a second it was any kind of coincidence.
rc1626
Active Member
Whoops! Actually as you can see the other way around. Sorry my bad!!! I should’ve had the conversion chart in front of me before writing.
Yes so based off the chart I jumped about 2 dkh just from changing lights and shocking my corals.
Just when I thought I knew a lot of the hobby I am reminded …
No other losses besides the few. Taking it slowly. It’s too bad that the Instant Ocean dkh sits nearly as high dkh other wise a water change would have occurred
A. grandis
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There are 2 things for any algae issue:
1) That particular algae needs to be introduced in the system!
2) The conditions of the system need to allow that algae to proliferate!
I am for halides any day, but in regards to algae, the simple fact one sees a type of algae in the tank doesn't mean that is happening exclusivaly because of the source of that ligh is from LED, per say, but the spectrum is probably what helps. Changing the spectrum could help/solve the problem. It could happen also with halids or T5s, in my experience. I've seen similar type of algae in tanks under halides and/or T5s, so... Nah.
This specific algae dies under halides. I’ve repeated it many times. Many vendors I’ve bought frags from have it on frag plugs. It’s very unique to the use of LEDs. Chris Meckley brought it to Tulio’s attention and Tulio was well aware of what he was observing. Tanks that are plumbed together (one led and one halide) sharing the same water don’t grow this algae under halide. It disappears in days under halides. I’m not the only one who’s observed this. You may say it’s spectrum but I doubt it. I run every channel on my Neptune Sky fixtures at 100%. It’s a very white look; not in line with how most run their LEDs these days. And that algae has already started to grow in a tank that previously had t5 and nowhere was that algae present.
To say we have to introduce an algae to have it proliferate? Mmmm…not really. These spores are in the guts of our fish, in the feces of snails, inverts, etc. Light, nutrients, living organisms…you’ll have many algae in some capacity. Algae can even grow in a low nutrient system if you tip the ratio of nitrogen to phosphorous out of whack.
I’m glad Andrew Sandler invited Tulio up. The UV in halides is going to most probably prove that aside from its more natural aesthetic as a light source, halide’s UV is probably offering a germicidal benefit to our systems that LED can’t replicate yet.
I have a theory…and again it’s only based off what I’ve observed and thought about often. I believe the reason led SPS keepers don’t recommend to go much above 350 par for fear of nuking corals (while halide SPS keepers keep 400+ par with no issues) is related to UV. Hear me out on this.
I believe that par is par…but that when UV is present, the coral responds by producing more of its’ protective pigments. Hence, that there’s a trigger in the coral’s dna (talking about SPS here) that signals them to protect themselves. While Dana Riddle has said that photosynthesis declines after the first 4-5 hours of the light cycle when 350 par is reached, that’s just photosynthesis. After that the coral is protecting itself…hence creating more rich pigments. I’ve seen a LOT of SPS tanks in my 25+ years. The ones that have sick colors and iridescent tones in their sticks all seem to run their halides much longer than most (sometimes 8-9 hours or more).
So back to my theory. Since UV may be the trigger that signals a coral to produce its protective pigments, LED has none. Zilch. Nada. Zero. So that signal is never received…leaving the coral that’s adapted to an environmental response to bleach in much lower par outputs than halide. So then white light became a bad thing. Everyone runs it blue. It’s “safer”. But that would contradict everything halide SPS keepers experience with our white light for yeaaaars. And I’ll die on the hill that literally every SPS frag I get from a led vendor once acclimated to halides looks healthier and develops thicker skin and pigments under my halides. It takes a REAL long time but it happens. As for lps, many grow much deeper in the water column where uv has been all but filtered out. Much like the creatures at the bottom of the sea, their colors and bioluminescence doesn’t require much light at all; let alone UV. In fact, even a little can stress them.
Can’t wait for the video. I think Tulio will keep it pretty pc. After all, he sells LEDs too. LOL.
A. grandis
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It's probably spectrum. Most LEDs have the "spectrum signature" for certain algae to grow, just like some T5 bulbs do. Not many halides have that same signature, but some actually did back in the day!
It's my word against yours, in a way, so no sense to argue, my dear.
In regards to introduce, it will HAVE TO BE INTRODUCED! LOL! No matter how. You have mentioned some ways, not all. Most times you won't see the way it's introduced, but if you have a frag coming from a tank with certain algae you will have high chances of introducing that specific algae.
Halides are great to grow algae, by the way... any algae, just like the sun. Most algae LOVE UV light from halides. What a huge mistake is to spread such idea.
Again, to use UV as an excuse to eradicate any type of algae in our tanks is a very narrow and mistaken way to choose halides (or any other light source) as the primary source of light.
By the way... most algae goes always after a while, when coralline algae takes over, as we know. There are way too many factual qualities to choose halides. The focus on UV from halides to eliminate algae and parasites, like some are talking about is a sad mistake!... The only UV that would eliminate any kind of life IN OUR REEF SYSTEMS is the UVC from sterilizers, not from halides.
My suggestion is to just forget any type of algae and concentrate in the system's maturation, so coralline can occupy some considerable real estate.
The deal with dinos is a different beast altogether, as we know. They do need also to be introduced in the system, by the way!!! The spectrum signature from LEDs in the market can also contribute to those crazy dinos and also cyano!
It's my word against yours, in a way, so no sense to argue, my dear.
In regards to introduce, it will HAVE TO BE INTRODUCED! LOL! No matter how. You have mentioned some ways, not all. Most times you won't see the way it's introduced, but if you have a frag coming from a tank with certain algae you will have high chances of introducing that specific algae.
Halides are great to grow algae, by the way... any algae, just like the sun. Most algae LOVE UV light from halides. What a huge mistake is to spread such idea.
Again, to use UV as an excuse to eradicate any type of algae in our tanks is a very narrow and mistaken way to choose halides (or any other light source) as the primary source of light.
By the way... most algae goes always after a while, when coralline algae takes over, as we know. There are way too many factual qualities to choose halides. The focus on UV from halides to eliminate algae and parasites, like some are talking about is a sad mistake!... The only UV that would eliminate any kind of life IN OUR REEF SYSTEMS is the UVC from sterilizers, not from halides.
My suggestion is to just forget any type of algae and concentrate in the system's maturation, so coralline can occupy some considerable real estate.
The deal with dinos is a different beast altogether, as we know. They do need also to be introduced in the system, by the way!!! The spectrum signature from LEDs in the market can also contribute to those crazy dinos and also cyano!
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wrassie86
Active Member
Idk been in this hobby a long time, set up many tanks over the years and never had the problems id had switching over to LED. Algea or dinos. And to have those issues disappear shortly after going back to MH, I have pictures in a thread on this. Nobody ever talked about dino on reef central at least not very often, the occasional "what is this brown slime" that may have just been cyno or from a die off. While you always run the risk of inheriting somebody else's problems from a frag plug, rock, fish whatever, Today is no different than 20 years ago trading and going to the LFS maybe mail order. The only thing I see different is the problems used to just be mostly hair algea.
I'm all for LED becoming a better light, But I am 99% positive if I was to put them back above my tank as my main lighting I would be right back in the fight. It could very well be a spectrum thing same with dino. But what is the answer No idea...
There are quite a few accounts of people on here that I've read, saying with one type LED on one side of tank and another on the other side there algae growth was worse way worse under x light. seems leads back to spectrum or something else. I envy those that can run a super nice tank with led with little problems, but at the same time probably puts as many out of the hobby. But maybe its just that i didn't spend 10k on my led.
I'm all for LED becoming a better light, But I am 99% positive if I was to put them back above my tank as my main lighting I would be right back in the fight. It could very well be a spectrum thing same with dino. But what is the answer No idea...
There are quite a few accounts of people on here that I've read, saying with one type LED on one side of tank and another on the other side there algae growth was worse way worse under x light. seems leads back to spectrum or something else. I envy those that can run a super nice tank with led with little problems, but at the same time probably puts as many out of the hobby. But maybe its just that i didn't spend 10k on my led.
True on many points. I’ve still gotten Dinos in new tanks with dry rock even with halide and t5 though. They just seem to cycle through faster. Many more factors at play than the lights, but there have been many anecdotal observations that seem to show promise in shortening or eliminating the Dino phase. Ten years ago the average temperature in hobbyist reef tanks was 78-80, and some (including myself) venture into the 81/82 range. LED has made tanks run much cooler in the 76-78 range. It’s pretty hard to keep a large tank lit with LEDs running at 78-80 these days. DC return pumps bring that temperature down even more. I have noticed that raising the average temperature helps a lot. Many of us would much rather fight hair algae than Dinos. That’s for sure. I’ve never been more happy to see green hair algae in my life. It’s usually a good sign I’m done with the Dinos.
As for the cost of the fixtures, I think it’s ridiculous what we pay for what they really are. And it’s created a snowball effect in other costs. If the average hobbyist wants a 4 foot led lit, wall to wall SPS tank, it’s going to cost them anywhere from $2k and up to cover that footprint with LEDs. T5 and halide can do it under $1000. Right around the time led started gaining in popularity, average tank sizes got smaller too. The trend seems to be LEDs over a rimless tank equal to a larger tank lit with halide and/or t5. Large tanks and in wall displays are nowhere near as prevalent as they were 10 years ago. They’re exponentially more expensive to start up now if you venture down the led and dc pump route. Then you hear “yeah but who wants a big canopy on their tank hiding large halide reflectors?” Trust me, if your sticks steal the show and it’s wall to wall color and polyp extension, nobody’s looking at your canopy hiding halides. Are LED’s on a light rail seriously more attractive than a sleek ati Sunpower t5 fixture anchored by stainless steel cable to the ceiling? Nah. Not at all. And we wonder why SPS frag prices are through the roof? It’s absolutely correlated to the start up costs of running a tank at least twice as much as it cost 10 years ago; not just for hobbyists but commercial growers too. The pressure to have one of those blue light, orange filter funhouse lit Instagram tanks is strong.
Soooooo many people tout the lower operating costs of their systems with led and dc pumps. I wonder how many of them have actually done a cost analysis over the course of 5 years with how expensive their startup and operating costs are? I wonder how many of those tanks will even be up and running in five years at all or not be already upgrading their led lights? Do the math and calculate the electric costs over 5 years. LED over a snazzy 4 foot rimless aquarium is TWICE as expensive as a standard eurobrace tank lit with set it and forget it t5 or halide…even accounting for bulb replacements and operating costs. You’ll also save yourself a lot of money not having to buy those fancy tenuis strains that only look good under royal blue LEDs…lol.
xabo
Valuable Member
If you follow Polo Reef on YouTube I’m sure they’ll have a results and findings video soon enough. The tests were just conducted over the weekend.
Hurricane Aquatics
Valuable Member
My new Red Sea Reefer XL 300 G2 has been up and running since the middle of October, the 14th to be exact. I used 40 pounds of the purple colored life rock (Marco rock painted purple) from Carib Sea.
In my 30 years of reef keeping and making all the mistakes, like most people early on, artificial rock is the number one ingredient that runs new reefers out of the hobby. It's 100% guaranteed Dinoflagelates.
There is a way around it and no, you don't "just have to let it runs its course" like BRS and others tell us.
First off, you won't control phosphates during the first 3 months. They'll be up and down and up and down. Just don't overfeed and add a ton of phosphates, but feed enough to keep levels there. What you will control, is Nitrate.
The fake rock is consuming your Nitrate and using phosphates to fuel Dinos as we know. If you'll buy or have, a good test kit like a Hanna high range Nitrate tester, and test daily to make sure you have 10 to 15 Nitrate at all times.
I Use Brightwell NeoNitro as it works great, but I'm sure any brand will. You'll get plenty of phosphates from feeding your fish. Also, fish are a must as they add necessary biological load to the process. I feed fairly heavily frozen Rod's foods, frozen Mysis, and frozen spirulina Brine Shrimp daily.
IIf you have corals during these three months, feed as little as possible in the realm of Coral food like reef Roids, etc. Maybe a small amount, target fed, once a week.
I also added a ton of copepods to keep up with the left overs and I have 4 Ecotech MP40QDs, so there's plenty of flow.
Long story short, LED did give me more algae growth. I agree with A.Grandis that it's spectrum as all of us adjust it and some fixtures come with green and red that aren't adjustable.
Want to bypass Dinos, dose Nitrates and keep level at 10 to 15 or so, keep an eye on phosphates and keep your filter media clean, very clean if it's picking up a lot of Dinos. My Red Sea Reefmat is a lifesaver for this. Don't sweat phosphates unless they get over 0.15 in the beginning. You want them to be 0.08 to 0.03 long term and once your tank gets age on it, that won't be a problem.
Run carbon to clear any impurities and don't run GFO unless your phosphates get out of hand. Water changes weekly. I have a total system of around 80 gallons. I change 15 gallons weekly like clockwork.
Dose nitrates, keep them at the level above for Marco rock, keep it up for around 3 months, and win.
In my 30 years of reef keeping and making all the mistakes, like most people early on, artificial rock is the number one ingredient that runs new reefers out of the hobby. It's 100% guaranteed Dinoflagelates.
There is a way around it and no, you don't "just have to let it runs its course" like BRS and others tell us.
First off, you won't control phosphates during the first 3 months. They'll be up and down and up and down. Just don't overfeed and add a ton of phosphates, but feed enough to keep levels there. What you will control, is Nitrate.
The fake rock is consuming your Nitrate and using phosphates to fuel Dinos as we know. If you'll buy or have, a good test kit like a Hanna high range Nitrate tester, and test daily to make sure you have 10 to 15 Nitrate at all times.
I Use Brightwell NeoNitro as it works great, but I'm sure any brand will. You'll get plenty of phosphates from feeding your fish. Also, fish are a must as they add necessary biological load to the process. I feed fairly heavily frozen Rod's foods, frozen Mysis, and frozen spirulina Brine Shrimp daily.
IIf you have corals during these three months, feed as little as possible in the realm of Coral food like reef Roids, etc. Maybe a small amount, target fed, once a week.
I also added a ton of copepods to keep up with the left overs and I have 4 Ecotech MP40QDs, so there's plenty of flow.
Long story short, LED did give me more algae growth. I agree with A.Grandis that it's spectrum as all of us adjust it and some fixtures come with green and red that aren't adjustable.
Want to bypass Dinos, dose Nitrates and keep level at 10 to 15 or so, keep an eye on phosphates and keep your filter media clean, very clean if it's picking up a lot of Dinos. My Red Sea Reefmat is a lifesaver for this. Don't sweat phosphates unless they get over 0.15 in the beginning. You want them to be 0.08 to 0.03 long term and once your tank gets age on it, that won't be a problem.
Run carbon to clear any impurities and don't run GFO unless your phosphates get out of hand. Water changes weekly. I have a total system of around 80 gallons. I change 15 gallons weekly like clockwork.
Dose nitrates, keep them at the level above for Marco rock, keep it up for around 3 months, and win.
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
I think that is accurate about the protective pigments.
I posted this earlier this year in a lighting thread that got shut down. I will post it here because I believe this as well. You can see that when I switched from LED to all T5 my corals that had "pretty" colors were all brown turds. a couple of months later, and I had amazing colors under whiter light. When my blues would hit them at night, then they would absolutely glow.
Metal Halide and T5 Grow Corals Better Than LED and Cost Less
Ecotech makes LEDs. You can't expect them to release the results of an experiment that give other technologies the edge, would you?
www.reef2reef.com
This is a copy and paste from that post.
I started my tank with 4 Marsaqua black boxes and grew Acro's well with them. I have no hate for LED's and honestly, if I could light my new tank adequately with top of the line LED's without breaking the bank then I would have more than likely choose LED's.
If you look at my posts in this thread a month ago before I purchased all of my halide gear I was contemplating using 10 of my black boxes that I had laying around for the new tank.
I have run VHO's, T5's, LED, and Halide over the last two decades. What I can say from my own personal experience is this. Yes, I had good growth and color from the black box LED's. However, when I switched to T5's all of the corals looked brown. It wasn't until two months later that I started to see their true color. I am running all T5's with an actinic reef breeders LED bar and the colors I am getting now are amazing under white light!
Almost 2 years ago with black box lights
This was right after I switched to T5's. You can see how brown most of the pieces look. They didn't look that brown under the black boxes.
Fast forward and this is the result of T5's. No issues with color here.
Wrong thread this is about showing Metal HalidesI think that is accurate about the protective pigments.
I posted this earlier this year in a lighting thread that got shut down. I will post it here because I believe this as well. You can see that when I switched from LED to all T5 my corals that had "pretty" colors were all brown turds. a couple of months later, and I had amazing colors under whiter light. When my blues would hit them at night, then they would absolutely glow.
Metal Halide and T5 Grow Corals Better Than LED and Cost Less
Ecotech makes LEDs. You can't expect them to release the results of an experiment that give other technologies the edge, would you?
This is a copy and paste from that post.
I started my tank with 4 Marsaqua black boxes and grew Acro's well with them. I have no hate for LED's and honestly, if I could light my new tank adequately with top of the line LED's without breaking the bank then I would have more than likely choose LED's.
If you look at my posts in this thread a month ago before I purchased all of my halide gear I was contemplating using 10 of my black boxes that I had laying around for the new tank.
I have run VHO's, T5's, LED, and Halide over the last two decades. What I can say from my own personal experience is this. Yes, I had good growth and color from the black box LED's. However, when I switched to T5's all of the corals looked brown. It wasn't until two months later that I started to see their true color. I am running all T5's with an actinic reef breeders LED bar and the colors I am getting now are amazing under white light!
Almost 2 years ago with black box lights
This was right after I switched to T5's. You can see how brown most of the pieces look. They didn't look that brown under the black boxes.
Fast forward and this is the result of T5's. No issues with color here.
lol jk nice coral growth under t5. Beautiful.
Koigula
Active Member
When my grandma came over for Christmas she asked way I took down the sunshine and put Christmas tree lights over my tank. (Ecotech Gen 1's). She was old and perhaps senile but does not lie.
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
Thank you. I know. Same principal though. T5s and Halides bring out the corals natural pigments. Most of my corals hold their color when all lights are off and just sunlight is shining into the room.
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