Best salt mixes

[Shaun Sweeney]

I think a Dkh of 14 is way high but fyi ... I read an article that suggests that regardless of what Ca level you settle at, there is a corresponding Dkh and Mg level that you should aim for. I printed the chart and keep it in my sump room.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think a Dkh of 14 is way high but fyi ... I read an article that suggests that regardless of what Ca level you settle at, there is a corresponding Dkh and Mg level that you should aim for. I printed the chart and keep it in my sump room.

[edited] IMO, the optimal alk is unrelated to the actual calcium or magnesium levels.

 

[jason2459]

Randy that's kind of confusing. Shaun is suggesting there's a ratio between them and you say you agree but then contradict that by saying its unrelated. Unless I'm reading something wrong?

This, below post, was suppost to post last night but didn't and nice thing is this forum had it grayed out like a saved draft.

I think a Dkh of 14 is way high but fyi ... I read an article that suggests that regardless of what Ca level you settle at, there is a corresponding Dkh and Mg level that you should aim for. I printed the chart and keep it in my sump room.

I wouldn't target numbers like that personally. There isn't an optimal ratio. There are prefered ranges and that will also very on who you ask.

Edit: I remember why this didn't get posted. I was going to get this link and paste it in and fell asleep.

This is a good place to start for optimal ranges
http://reef2reef.com/threads/optima...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah sorry, I misread it. I'll edit it.

 

[jason2459]

lol thanks.

 

[Ike]

No emotions? I mentioned 'American salts', you only mentioned IO and RC. Only a small amount of associative logic in that comparison... It's geared by emotion/opinion.
Further you quoted the AA article and wrote off ANY possibility of negatives with any other organisms. That again is emotion, not logic.
With the other data available, given AA is only a single source, the possibilities go up that lithium interferes with other biological development in negative ways. We are growing coral, breeding fish, raising planktons, life goes on, and to better understand it only furthers our success. Pretending it doesn't matter is the most illogical attempt for a point of argument, thus it's geared by emotions. Perhaps you need to learn a bit more about yourself and why you bring up the points you do, because it surely doesn't help things trying to say "it doesn't matter!" The world is just not that simple.

I myself have an emotional negative. I've become tired of being preached to by people who swear 'things work this way' but yet are completely ignoring the facts of the world around us. This gears a lot of my gusto, but I make my number one priority to be accurate, factual, and hopefully share what I've learned so that someone smarter than myself might one day recall what I've shared and piece together more of the puzzles around us.

If we're going to be adults, and have a conversation about the best salts, lithium content is a valid tangent. Even confirmed by one of the most educated amongst us with the reference I posted above as that was part of their basis for choosing one salt over another. (feel free to find out who that was; again, perhaps Google/bing can help you)

Oh, and your comments about 'people breed just fine with RC/IO.....etc'
Ok, why is it only now blue tangs have been bred? How about the THOUSANDS of other fish that have not been successfully bred? Of course we cannot account for every single attempt, nor their water source, or even the other variables. But to say people breed fine with them, is probably .001% of all situations. Again, geared by emotion in defending your choice in salt. (at least the probability is definitely against you being unbiased)

Not trying to be a jerk, but it irks me when people confuse opinions with facts. I know it's hard, even I find myself doing it from time to time, and I'm one of the most logical people I've ever met.

My argument was that it's been proven that one can maintain a spectacular tank with IO and RC. Are you disputing that fact? The reason why IO has been brought up is because the OP was using IO. It's a perfectly good salt and is simply not causing the issues he's having unless he got some odd batch of it.

Someone else mentioned breeding fish, not me... So your tangent is not only emotionally driven, it's not even directed in the right direction.

If you would like to have an argument, perhaps some evidence to support those arguments would be a good idea in the future. Pointing towards an internet search engine doesn't quite qualify... I won't even bother tackling your tang breeding comments, because there is nothing to suggest past failed attempts have had anything to do with synthetic salt mixes.

As to you not trying to be a jerk, I'm sure it took minimal effort on your part.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

My argument was that it's been proven that one can maintain a spectacular tank with IO and RC. Are you disputing that fact? The reason why IO has been brought up is because the OP was using IO. It's a perfectly good salt and is simply not causing the issues he's having unless he got some odd batch of it.Someone else mentioned breeding fish, not me... So your tangent is not only emotionally driven, it's not even directed in the right direction.
If you would like to have an argument, perhaps some evidence to support those arguments would be a good idea in the future. Pointing towards an internet search engine doesn't quite qualify... I won't even bother tackling your tang breeding comments, because there is nothing to suggest past failed attempts have had anything to do with synthetic salt mixes.
As to you not trying to be a jerk, I'm sure it took minimal effort on your part.

Someone else mentioned fish breeding, you said:
How urchin embryos react it it doesn't change that fact.

That touches on breeding as well as it goes alongside organism development. The tangents are parallel.

If you want evidence to contemplate, you seem intelligent enough to type in a few words on a search engine. If you do have issues finding data, then by all means explain that you're not good at finding data and I'll help.
Here's some queries to get started.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+affect+development+fish
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+affect+development+urchin
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lithium+cellular+development
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=marine+larvae+cellular+lithium
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=fish+larvae+lithium

As you can see from various content within those queries, there is not ZERO interaction between lithium and organisms developing. Does that mean EVERYTHING is negatively affected by lithium? Of course not. You can even see the one research article that finds ZERO interaction on the development of a single species of fish. But if we only pay attention to what is learned through those articles, the numbers are in favor of negative effects. How many is affected and what the levels are, are in question. That ties into this subject because someone asks about "best salt mixes".

As far as this comment:
there is nothing to suggest past failed attempts have had anything to do with synthetic salt mixes.

Prove it. I'm not aware of any research that's looked into Tangs and lithium, but we certainly can't rule it for interaction. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why? Because there's many things that go into breeding and the development of the organism.

What I'm talking about, is that the facts point towards interactions and many go far beyond simple statements such as some we've seen here saying, "there's nothing to worry about". Even in your reference to companies tricking people into dosing molyb and strontium. Uhh, you realize strontium is inherently in aragonite? There's even been research into the causality for doing so. Even one article considered the incorporation of strontium into the crystalline matrix as a launchpad for bio-composite substances. (look for the strontium thread, I was told there's no evidence to suggest that either, and then I stumbled across a group of phd's that were basically studying the tangents I thought was theoretical)

We know so little, don't assume so much.

 

[Oberst Oswald]

Since I'm kind of new to all of this (my 65 gallon tank reached 6 months today) I have a question to ask. Is there any reason why Tropic Marin Bio-Actif (salt I've been using) is not used by experienced reefers?

 

[jason2459]

Since I'm kind of new to all of this (my 65 gallon tank reached 6 months today) I have a question to ask. Is there any reason why Tropic Marin Bio-Actif (salt I've been using) is not used by experienced reefers?

I'm sure it is.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Since I'm kind of new to all of this (my 65 gallon tank reached 6 months today) I have a question to ask. Is there any reason why Tropic Marin Bio-Actif (salt I've been using) is not used by experienced reefers?

Experienced Reefers use it but the problem is is that many people are turned off by the price.

Alot of people just buy the cheapest thing available (Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals).

And alot of places don't even offer Tropic Marin Salt for sale making it harder to find even if you do not mind the price.

Tropic Marin is probably the most used Salt in Europe where people are more concerned with Quality and Value than with Price.

I use Tropic Marin Pro and so do others I know and we Love It.

Wouldn't use anything Else

 

[jason2459]

Tropic Marin is probably the most used Salt in Europe where people are more concerned with Quality and Value than with Price.
...

You sure about that? Sounds like a pretty broad statement for an entire continent.

Also, I'm curious how much Tropic Marine basic salt is compared to basic Instant Ocean over there in Europe where TM is made?

 

[jason2459]

Haven't found IO on a german site yet.

But found Redsea coral pro
for 22kg st 74.99 eur

20kg Tropic Marine at 62.90 eur
And 20kg Tropic Marine pro at 75.00 eur

 

[jason2459]

Intersting I didn't know ATI made a saltmix. Looks like a lot of cheap brands for sale as well. I have a feeling people around the world look at cost savings.

Like
sera marine 20kg 56 eur
Aquamedic 20kg 63 eur
Fluval 22.5kg 55 eur
Tetra 20kg 59 eur

 

[cmcoker]

You sure about that? Sounds like a pretty broad statement for an entire continent.

Also, I'm curious how much Tropic Marine basic salt is compared to basic Instant Ocean over there in Europe where TM is made?

One of the lfs guys told me it's more expensive in the US cause of the cost to import. Idk how accurate, but that what I was told anyway.

 

[JimWelsh]

Here's a good place to start. Http://www.google.com


Lithium effects can be seen far beyond just urchins.
To pretend it has to only be certain levels is to invite assumptions. It's the same as saying 5 beers are not toxic.

Constructive intellectual conversations can be had by anyone, so don't sell yourself short. It's indeed funny to see the emotions come forth when you "diss" someone's choice in salt. ☺

What incredible condescension.

 

[Big E]

Coralife, $40 for 200g shipped. Nothing but awesome sps results for the last 12 years. I've seen more tanks that can't keep SPS using red sea coral pro than any other salt. Experienced SPS keepers....

I used Coralife back in the early 90's and always liked it. I ended up switching to IO because Coralife was hard to find locally.

To the original OP--
I've been using IO for 20+ years and never had a single problem..............running dominant Sps systems for 17 years.

For me consistency is the most important consideration for any salt.

As for anyone referring to tests, articles, ect. from Shimek, he lost credibility in the reefers world years ago for many reasons. I'm not going to get into the why's............anyone that's been around for a long time knows the history or do the search yourself.
He's the go to guy for pods, worms, ect and that's about it for me.

One thing about articles, tests, ect. you can't use the results in a vacuum, it's not that simple. I miss the old days when every time a test or article was put out it was intelligently analyzed by the reef community in forums to really fetter out some value, conclusions, applications, ect.

Now they are just used as hammers to win an argument............so sad.

 

[that Reef Guy]

You sure about that? Sounds like a pretty broad statement for an entire continent.

Also, I'm curious how much Tropic Marine basic salt is compared to basic Instant Ocean over there in Europe where TM is made?

That is what Reefers in Europe have told me.

Don't see why they would have any reason to Lie About.

Tropic Marin has been around for Over 40 Years I Believe.

They have quite the reputation in the Hobby.

 

[that Reef Guy]

One of the lfs guys told me it's more expensive in the US cause of the cost to import. Idk how accurate, but that what I was told anyway.

I am sure that has something to do with it but They use the Highest Grade in Sodium Chloride which makes it much much more expensive than American Brands.

 

[jason2459]

That is what Reefers in Europe have told me.

Don't see why they would have any reason to Lie About.

Tropic Marin has been around for Over 40 Years I Believe.

They have quite the reputation in the Hobby.

Well I could say one brand of salt is used by most everyone here in the US but I have no idea being a consumer. I believe IO to be one of the most popular here in the US and most likely else where as well.

There's lots of brands that have been in the hobby as long or nearly from over seas. Tunze and Aquamedic come to mind as well.

Again, I agree Tropic Marine has a good reputation, is a good salt, and most likely more popular in Europe then here in the US based on where it's made.

I am sure that has something to do with it but They use the Highest Grade in Sodium Chloride which makes it much much more expensive than American Brands.

Sounds like a lot of marketing hype. It would be interesting to see what quality or level of ingredients they use compared to others like ESV.

 

[hawkinsrgk]

What incredible condescension.

+1. I have seen other threads where this has been done