Can't seem to keep nitrates down

Myka

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Is there nuisance algae in the tank? What is PO4 at? Did you read my post above?
Then either you're feeding each fish a cube of food a day and not telling us or the rock is leaching. I'm going with the latter. There was probably a big die off when it was shipped due to poor shipping practices in the exporting country.
 

clownsrcool

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It's Tampa saltwater rock shipped overnight in bags full of water. No ammonia spike even on first day. I don't excessively feed. 2 cubes last me all week maybe a little more.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Yes exactly. It's that white-ish color slimy residue. I dose it at the exit chamber of the fuge before the return pump chamber. It is what it is.. I understand why, I'm just a little ocd with keeping stuff clean, even my fuge/sump, so I do everything I can before I get to carbon dosing.

OK, because I never saw any bacteria except hazing of the water at super high doses. I know some people do get unsightly bacteria, but that seems to be much less than half the time. :)
 

Scott.h

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OK, because I never saw any bacteria except hazing of the water at super high doses. I know some people do get unsightly bacteria, but that seems to be much less than half the time. :)
Im not sure. I felt the water actually got clearer. After I got a handle on things, backed down the dose, the residue in the sump dissipated. I just assumed that's what it was from. Using vodka.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Im not sure. I felt the water actually got clearer. After I got a handle on things, backed down the dose, the residue in the sump dissipated. I just assumed that's what it was from. Using vodka.


Well, it likely was. :)
 
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drawman

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A few thoughts...

In the spring when "everyone" on this side of the pond started using Aquaforest there was a whole whack of people getting 50 ppm NO3 readings from Salifert test kits in tanks that certainly didn't look like they contained 50 ppm NO3. "We" were wondering if there was some sort of interference with the test kits. I never saw this happen in my tank using Aquaforest, but I didn't really use NP Pro, and maybe that's where the issue was. I'm not sure if there was ever a real conclusion to this 50 ppm NO3 reading.

A second thought, did you start with dry rock? I've seen a lot of tanks started with dry rock struggle with NO3 for the first 12-18 months. Not every tank, but certainly a good portion. I assume this is probably because it takes time for dry rock to develop anaerobic bacteria populations for denitrification. It seems like many products on the market that use anaerobic bacteria for N and P reduction can develop these anaerobic populations quite quickly, though maybe this is because of media size - biopellets for carbon dosing, and products like Siporax are certainly much smaller than a chunk of dry rock. Maybe adding some Siporax to the sump (particularly in a low flow reactor to encourage an anaerobic zone) would help reduce N and P until the dry rock can catch up.

Lastly, are you using GFO or some other phosphate reducing media? If you bottom out PO4 to absolute zero, then NO3 will have a tendency to rise since the anaerobic bacteria require NO3, PO4, and organic carbon in order to survive. So if you are missing any one of these 3 ingredients, the other 2 may rise. So a lack of PO4 could cause NO3 to rise, just as a lack of NO3 could cause PO4 to rise. You can do all the organic carbon dosing your little heart desires, and if there is no PO4 you won't see significant NO3 reduction. This is why manufacturers don't recommend using GFO with carbon dosing. It's easier to "not recommend" it, than to explain this. :)
Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Mindy. I do remember seeing in some threads people posting 50ppm NO3 readings. I can only assume that it is not the case in my tank as I do see an increase in algae growth when the Nitrates are higher vs lower. Maybe I am getting some interference but the good news is I haven't had 50ppm Nitrates in a while. Other than a weekly brown dusting on the sand/glass things are looking a lot better...they're just not where I want them to be yet.

I did originally start with BRS dry pukani rock. The tank has been up since the winter of 2014/2015 and the rock went through an acid bath. I would hope that any remaining organics would've leached out by now. However, I know I had some dead spots that were recently relieved by adding a Gyre 130 so hopefully that will only improve things over time.

I actually have a gallon of Matrix media (minus any stones I removed that clearly weren't meant to be there) that has been in the sump since the Spring. I could always add more but I assumed a gallon would put me right in line.

I am not using GFO or any other phosphate reducing media nor do I plan to :). I don't want to drive the system too hard with carbon dosing but I am using it as a supplement technique along with hopefully removing/reducing Nitrate sources/sinks.
 

Myka

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It's Tampa saltwater rock shipped overnight in bags full of water. No ammonia spike even on first day. I don't excessively feed. 2 cubes last me all week maybe a little more.

There's only two options - either you've added the nutrients to the system, or it came from the rock. If you were testing high nutrients right off the hop, then it came from the rock one way or another. If I were you I'd go buy a new Salifert NO3 kit, chuck out the other ones, and go with that reading. :)
 

Myka

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I didn't notice that wasn't OP...annoying when people jump into someone elses' thread. ^

Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Mindy. I do remember seeing in some threads people posting 50ppm NO3 readings. I can only assume that it is not the case in my tank as I do see an increase in algae growth when the Nitrates are higher vs lower. Maybe I am getting some interference but the good news is I haven't had 50ppm Nitrates in a while. Other than a weekly brown dusting on the sand/glass things are looking a lot better...they're just not where I want them to be yet.

I did originally start with BRS dry pukani rock. The tank has been up since the winter of 2014/2015 and the rock went through an acid bath. I would hope that any remaining organics would've leached out by now. However, I know I had some dead spots that were recently relieved by adding a Gyre 130 so hopefully that will only improve things over time.

I actually have a gallon of Matrix media (minus any stones I removed that clearly weren't meant to be there) that has been in the sump since the Spring. I could always add more but I assumed a gallon would put me right in line.

I am not using GFO or any other phosphate reducing media nor do I plan to :). I don't want to drive the system too hard with carbon dosing but I am using it as a supplement technique along with hopefully removing/reducing Nitrate sources/sinks.

Well it sounds like you're on the right track. Personally, I prefer biopellets over liquid carbon dosing because the bacteria is (mostly) contained within the reactor, and the effluent is run directly into the skimmer, so you get more effective, "cleaner" carbon dosing. You just have to be careful to not use too much. I've had good luck using TLF 150 reactors on clients' tanks - seems to be big enough even for heavily fed 300-gallon tanks. TLF reactors are more aggressive since they aren't recirculating, so need about 250-300 gph to get the proper churning, and thus it is aggressive at lowering nutrients. For this reason I use significantly less biopellets, which I really can't see any drawback to other than you have to dial in the amount used. I typically use about 1 mL biopellets per gallon for each system, and that's installed on tanks around 60-100 ppm NO3. Once it drops, the maintenance volume of biopellets goes down significantly (especially if I manage to teach them about overfeeding haha).
 

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I had same problem.

Carbon dosing made it worse....increased water changes made it worse.

I discovered my rodi water had higher nitrates than my tank (7 stage with dual rodi units, a prefilter, dual carbon blocks and dual di resin chambers!!!)

I dropped from two 37 g water changes a month to 1 every 8 weeks.

Dumped the biopellets completely.

Started changing filter socks every 2 days.

Took most of the gfo offline.

Added Ozone to a reactor inline to a carbon reactor which i change every 2 weeks.

Added a sulfue denitrator.

Even with my skimmer off 70% of the time (it always over foams now and i cant run it)......

Problem solved. Cyano gone, water crystal clear, nitrates way down, phosphate at 0 and corals look great.

Ymmv
 
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drawman

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More importantly, there are some resources for the LRS Frenzy foods in The Cities.
You can find it at AWOF (Richfield) and New Wave Aquaria (Plymouth). I've been making the long trek to NWA for quite a while now as LRS has by far the best frozen food blends available.
Last weekend, I convinced Stephen at AcanLord (Hudson) to start carrying the foods. He spoke to Larry last week and should have his first order coming in this week.
Thanks for the recommendations Jason. I went to AcanLord today and Stephen is a stand up guy and runs a nice shop! He has some of the cleanest tanks I've seen in a store which is really nice to see.

Got some LRS Reef Frenzy so it will be interesting to try something different. I plan on finally removing the rest of my sand bed this weekend as well. I don't plan on going bare bottom very long but may give it a solid week just to see how much debris settles and try to get cyano under control.
 

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The positive test is my tank water, the negative test is what comes out of my nitrate reactor.
 
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Quick Update:
I'm still hanging pretty steady at 25ppm or slightly less from my Salifert test kit. I ran out of my diluted -NP Pro that I was dosing and have a new jug so I will put that back online. I've been dosing concentrated -NP Pro but since I'm gone during part of the week it has been sporadic at best over the last 1-2 weeks.

Last Wednesday, I pulled all but a few traces of my sandbed. I will say the tank looks cleaner from it and most detritus stays suspended in the display which is really nice. I have new sand from Tropic Eden but I may just stay barebottom for a while. The no sand equals no cyano is rather pleasant. If I do put sand back in then I will likely try to employ a sand sifting goby.

The plateau at 25ppm is getting to be a little frustrating for me but hopefully the sand bed removal will turn things around and maybe it's just too early to tell. 20 gallon water changes are getting a little old at this point :confused:

It's funny in my other tank (30 gallon Rimless) my Nitrates are 0.2ppm and I will likely soon be dosing nitrate. Totally a tale of two tanks.
 

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Have you tried feeding less? Food is the only source for excessive nutrients. Water changes can only dilute the excessive nutrients by the % of water changed. I tried using carbon dosing for 6 months, but found it easier and have better growth by just limiting the amount of food added.

You many have stated it earlier, but how old is your tank? You may not have a mature and stable biological filter yet. I have found that it takes at least a year before a tank gets it's groove.
 
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drawman

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Have you tried feeding less? Food is the only source for excessive nutrients. Water changes can only dilute the excessive nutrients by the % of water changed. I tried using carbon dosing for 6 months, but found it easier and have better growth by just limiting the amount of food added.

You many have stated it earlier, but how old is your tank? You may not have a mature and stable biological filter yet. I have found that it takes at least a year before a tank gets it's groove.
Yeah honestly I do not feed a lot. My wife is a little more heavy handed than me and she feeds during the week but regardless we aren't putting a ton of food in the water. I recently switched over to Larry's LFS Reef Frenzy so hopefully that will make some difference (how much time will tell). To put it in perspective, I have a 30 gallon tank (in addition to this 60 gallon) that I cannot keep nitrates in and I would say I feed proportionally. That tank is barebottom, however, and I do not carbon dose in it.

This 60 gallon tank has been set up for about 1-2 years and has a good supply of Seachem Matrix with additions of AF Pro Bio S. Not really concerned about the biological filter at this point but either way I appreciate all input :)

I'm hoping removal of the sandbed and all other potential sources of detritus will help moving forward. Time will tell!
 
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drawman

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Quick Update:
Nitrates have still been hanging around 25ppm on my Salifert test kit. I used a second Salifert kit to confirm this as well. I tested Phosphates with my ULR Hanna Checker and I'm sitting around .0275ppm. Still performing weekly 20 gallon water changes :oops:

There is not much algae growth other than the weekly film on the glass certainly no major problems.

Since I removed the sandbed I've noticed the skimmer isn't pulling quite as much but the consistency is still the same. I'm certain there was some built up nutrients there and removal was good either way.

Just placed an order for 2 - 1000mL boxes of Sera Siporax from ebay. I will hopefully get it from Germany in the next month. As I said before, I have about a gallon of Seachem Matrix in my sump so I never thought I was hurting for filtration. In my 30 gallon I'm running siporax only with barely detectable nitrates so I'm curious to see if the siporax will perform better in this tank as well.
 

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Hi a simple question for you.....are you still using the AF probiotic salt as you mentioned in first post? If yes then are you aware of the fact that its been designed for ULNS system and comes loaded with amino acid and vitamins along with the probiotic bacteria. So in a system like yours which I believe is not low nutrient system the amino acid will slowly degrade and generate excess of NO3 pool. This will never end unless you stop doing water changes with the probiotic salt as what the heck every water change you are adding more NO3 source. I would suggest stop using the probiotic salt and shift to their reef salt and add separately the Pro bio S and NP pro.
 
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drawman

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Hi a simple question for you.....are you still using the AF probiotic salt as you mentioned in first post? If yes then are you aware of the fact that its been designed for ULNS system and comes loaded with amino acid and vitamins along with the probiotic bacteria. So in a system like yours which I believe is not low nutrient system the amino acid will slowly degrade and generate excess of NO3 pool. This will never end unless you stop doing water changes with the probiotic salt as what the heck every water change you are adding more NO3 source. I would suggest stop using the probiotic salt and shift to their reef salt and add separately the Pro bio S and NP pro.
Yes I am aware and it's really funny that you say that because it has been a thought in my mind as well. I've even thought about holding on to some of the NSW that I make with the probiotic reef salt for a week to test it for NO3 but I doubt it would show anything without nitrifying bacteria present to break things down.

I have a difficult time wrapping my head around this being the cause of excess nitrates though and maybe you can give me feedback but here is my rationale:

1. This 60 gallon tank has around 1 gallon of seachem matrix (minus impure stones I removed - so let's say at least 2/3 gallon) and I've been using -NP Pro and Pro Bio S since the Spring. This is the tank that has the nitrate issues and the sandbed has been recently removed.

2. I also have a 30 gallon frag tank that has 2L of sera siporax that I also use probiotic reef salt without -NP Pro an Pro Bio S. With this tank I cannot get nitrates above 1ppm (I will actually be dosing sodium nitrate soon to get to 2-5ppm). I'm doing 10 gallon water changes every week or so. The tank has always been bare bottom.

So maybe I am being stubborn but I think if the probiotic reef salt was the source then I would think that I would have the same issue in the 30 gallon tank (or worse since I'm not using -NP Pro). To me it has to be something else (skimmer efficiency, matrix vs siporax, feeding, detritus, etc.). I've removed basically every source of detritus (unless some is lingering in deeper areas of the liverock). Feeding has been addressed as well and I don't believe that is the issue with the amount I feed. Not trying to be dismissive at all I really do appreciate the input. You could be right and I appreciate your further thoughts! If the answer is that simple I will gladly change to get the number down :)
 

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