Can't seem to keep nitrates down

[Mr V]

I have 50ppm Nitrate. As long as it stay stable you will be fine.

 

[Anirban]

Yes I am aware and it's really funny that you say that because it has been a thought in my mind as well. I've even thought about holding on to some of the NSW that I make with the probiotic reef salt for a week to test it for NO3 but I doubt it would show anything without nitrifying bacteria present to break things down.

I have a difficult time wrapping my head around this being the cause of excess nitrates though and maybe you can give me feedback but here is my rationale:

1. This 60 gallon tank has around 1 gallon of seachem matrix (minus impure stones I removed - so let's say at least 2/3 gallon) and I've been using -NP Pro and Pro Bio S since the Spring. This is the tank that has the nitrate issues and the sandbed has been recently removed.

2. I also have a 30 gallon frag tank that has 2L of sera siporax that I also use probiotic reef salt without -NP Pro an Pro Bio S. With this tank I cannot get nitrates above 1ppm (I will actually be dosing sodium nitrate soon to get to 2-5ppm). I'm doing 10 gallon water changes every week or so. The tank has always been bare bottom.

So maybe I am being stubborn but I think if the probiotic reef salt was the source then I would think that I would have the same issue in the 30 gallon tank (or worse since I'm not using -NP Pro). To me it has to be something else (skimmer efficiency, matrix vs siporax, feeding, detritus, etc.). I've removed basically every source of detritus (unless some is lingering in deeper areas of the liverock). Feeding has been addressed as well and I don't believe that is the issue with the amount I feed. Not trying to be dismissive at all I really do appreciate the input. You could be right and I appreciate your further thoughts! If the answer is that simple I will gladly change to get the number down

What you have in frag tank as livestock vs 60G ?

 

[Anirban]

Yes I am aware and it's really funny that you say that because it has been a thought in my mind as well. I've even thought about holding on to some of the NSW that I make with the probiotic reef salt for a week to test it for NO3 but I doubt it would show anything without nitrifying bacteria present to break things down.

I have a difficult time wrapping my head around this being the cause of excess nitrates though and maybe you can give me feedback but here is my rationale:

1. This 60 gallon tank has around 1 gallon of seachem matrix (minus impure stones I removed - so let's say at least 2/3 gallon) and I've been using -NP Pro and Pro Bio S since the Spring. This is the tank that has the nitrate issues and the sandbed has been recently removed.

2. I also have a 30 gallon frag tank that has 2L of sera siporax that I also use probiotic reef salt without -NP Pro an Pro Bio S. With this tank I cannot get nitrates above 1ppm (I will actually be dosing sodium nitrate soon to get to 2-5ppm). I'm doing 10 gallon water changes every week or so. The tank has always been bare bottom.

So maybe I am being stubborn but I think if the probiotic reef salt was the source then I would think that I would have the same issue in the 30 gallon tank (or worse since I'm not using -NP Pro). To me it has to be something else (skimmer efficiency, matrix vs siporax, feeding, detritus, etc.). I've removed basically every source of detritus (unless some is lingering in deeper areas of the liverock). Feeding has been addressed as well and I don't believe that is the issue with the amount I feed. Not trying to be dismissive at all I really do appreciate the input. You could be right and I appreciate your further thoughts! If the answer is that simple I will gladly change to get the number down

I will like to mention few differences in your both system....
2L siporax in a 30G frag tank is killer dose. Its a frag tank so there is almost no bioload. The siporax amount is double the amount recommended for water volume.
Now coming back to salty thing. In your frag system without almost any bioload and that much of siporax possibly those amino and vitamins from the salt are keeping your system running and healthy. The NO3 and PO4 are consumed by the probiotics. But in your big system with higher bioload, feeding, lower surface area (matrix) and amino from salt altogether keeping your nitrate higher.
For testing this I will suggest you two simple changes very easy to do....

1. Put your matrix in the frag tank and put all the siporax in the 60G. Wait for 2 days and check nitrate in both. If I am understanding it well this will take down nitrate in 60 G and increase NO3 in frag tank. Also dont do any water change during this time for atleast 96 hours.

2. Get smallest bucket of AF reef salt and do a water change with it for next 2-3 times it should lower down the NO3 level irrespective of your feeding and other supposedly issues.

 

[drawman]

I will like to mention few differences in your both system....
2L siporax in a 30G frag tank is killer dose. Its a frag tank so there is almost no bioload. The siporax amount is double the amount recommended for water volume.
Now coming back to salty thing. In your frag system without almost any bioload and that much of siporax possibly those amino and vitamins from the salt are keeping your system running and healthy. The NO3 and PO4 are consumed by the probiotics. But in your big system with higher bioload, feeding, lower surface area (matrix) and amino from salt altogether keeping your nitrate higher.
For testing this I will suggest you two simple changes very easy to do....

1. Put your matrix in the frag tank and put all the siporax in the 60G. Wait for 2 days and check nitrate in both. If I am understanding it well this will take down nitrate in 60 G and increase NO3 in frag tank. Also dont do any water change during this time for atleast 96 hours.

2. Get smallest bucket of AF reef salt and do a water change with it for next 2-3 times it should lower down the NO3 level irrespective of your feeding and other supposedly issues.

I agree with you on all those points I just am not sure I would call the probiotic reef salt the culprit. Certainly using their reef salt as a substitute would quickly test this however and it's not a bad call. Now that it is available at BRS I may just do that as a proof of principle for myself. Bioload is relatively small in my 60 gallon as well with 3 fish - yellow tang, aiptasia eating filefish, and orchid dottyback so I'm not pushing the system real hard. I would hope at the very least that my bioload is "proportional" - but maybe not when you consider siporax vs matrix filtration potentials.

These two tanks are separated by about a 90 minute drive so it's a no go to swap medias. But as I said in an earlier post I have 2 Liters of Siporax on order so in a month (or whenever it is delivered) I'll be increasing the filtration capacity in my 60 gallon. It will be interesting to see what this does over time. I originally went with Matrix in this tank due to the cost/availability as well as good reviews on a big thread on the other forum.

The nice thing is the system appears very clean. My coral bioload is almost nonexistant so I would think when that changes they would help soak up some of the nitrates as well. I don't think things are that far from being in balance the numbers just aren't where I would like them to be yet

 

[Anirban]

I agree with you on all those points I just am not sure I would call the probiotic reef salt the culprit. Certainly using their reef salt as a substitute would quickly test this however and it's not a bad call. Now that it is available at BRS I may just do that as a proof of principle for myself. Bioload is relatively small in my 60 gallon as well with 3 fish - yellow tang, aiptasia eating filefish, and orchid dottyback so I'm not pushing the system real hard. I would hope at the very least that my bioload is "proportional" - but maybe not when you consider siporax vs matrix filtration potentials.

These two tanks are separated by about a 90 minute drive so it's a no go to swap medias. But as I said in an earlier post I have 2 Liters of Siporax on order so in a month (or whenever it is delivered) I'll be increasing the filtration capacity in my 60 gallon. It will be interesting to see what this does over time. I originally went with Matrix in this tank due to the cost/availability as well as good reviews on a big thread on the other forum.

The nice thing is the system appears very clean. My coral bioload is almost nonexistant so I would think when that changes they would help soak up some of the nitrates as well. I don't think things are that far from being in balance the numbers just aren't where I would like them to be yet

Yes, I understand your point and I am not saying that salt is sole culprit but it is actually playing a big role. Once you discontinue it and replace it with reef salt you will understand how much it it affecting those nitrate levels. Also it is not impossible to change those media. The bacteria will not die over the journey. Just Take them out in a plastic bucket and put with enough water so they remain wet and dipped. They can remain in that condition over 24hours period so you can just drive back and replace them without issues. I have done that in past without problem. They are much stubborn than we think.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, my expectation is that the total amount of N in any salt mix that might end up as nitrate is very small in comparison to the ammonia released by metabolism of fish food (by fish, bacteria, and many other tank organisms). I personally would not focus on this issue.

 

[Anirban]

FWIW, my expectation is that the total amount of N in any salt mix that might end up as nitrate is very small in comparison to the ammonia released by metabolism of fish food (by fish, bacteria, and many other tank organisms). I personally would not focus on this issue.

If that salt comes with added amino acids still it will be low in N content compared to other salts which come without amino?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If that salt comes with added amino acids still it will be low in N content compared to other salts which come without amino?

I'm not sure how much amino acid any of these put in relative to the ammonia naturally present (the other main source of N), but I'd expect more N in amino acid-containing salt mixes.

 

[drawman]

I to was have an issue with nitrates 50+, I was dosing NP pro with very little results, by its self. Setup a reactor with a 1/4 dose of bio pellets at a slow tumble and in two weeks when the bactria kick in my nitrates dropped to 4 ppm red sea test. Last week I started to dose Pro bio S along with NP pro after learn both are supposed to be used together to reduce nutrients. I do have a sand bed and vacuum the sand periodically with water changes this also help export the nutrients. There is a new product coming out Life Bio Fil that might be the answer to exporting nutrients.

What reactor did you end up going with and how do you like it? I am outright crazy about detritus removal and haven't been able to get nitrates to change in this tank so I'm thinking of adding some reinforcements.

 

[jsker]

I went with this one, link . The Aqua Maxx did a great job. Make sure you run the bio pellet at a medium tumble and no slower. I ran mine to slow and had a tank crash in October and pull the reactor off line at the end of November. I am now running lif bio fil from AF and I am very happy with the results and my nutrients are were I need them to be.

Would I run bio pellets again, yes. As I stated about keep the pellets moving and a medium tumble.

 

[Scott.h]

When you run those reactors/bio pellets does it leave the same clear flakey soot junk all over the sump the same as if you were dumping liquid carbon dosing products?

 

[drawman]

I went with this one, link . The Aqua Maxx did a great job. Make sure you run the bio pellet at a medium tumble and no slower. I ran mine to slow and had a tank crash in October and pull the reactor off line at the end of November. I am now running lif bio fil from AF and I am very happy with the results and my nutrients are were I need them to be.

Would I run bio pellets again, yes. As I stated about keep the pellets moving and a medium tumble.

Yeah I was hoping using a little more Siporax would drop my nitrates down. Obviously the Life Bio Fil would work quicker but my sump is running out of room haha. Does the life bio fil look more like Matrix?

 

[jsker]

Yeah I was hoping using a little more Siporax would drop my nitrates down. Obviously the Life Bio Fil would work quicker but my sump is running out of room haha. Does the life bio fil look more like Matrix?

More like Zeovit, chunky. I put mine in nylon socks and have it in my sump flow tray. The flow is better than a reactor. Yesterday test results were trace on phosphates and 8 ppm on the nitrates. I actually would like to bump up the phosphates a tiny bit.

 

[drawman]

More like Zeovit, chunky. I put mine in nylon socks and have it in my sump flow tray. The flow is better than a reactor. Yesterday test results were trace on phosphates and 8 ppm on the nitrates. I actually would like to bump up the phosphates a tiny bit.

Yeah that's how I'm running Siporax just in the bags in the sump. I also have a little less than a gallon of Matrix (I picked over the bad stones). You would think this would be more than enough filtration.

 

[scoopsthedog]

I just wrote a review of BactoBalls. Admittedly it is mostly correlation but my NO3 is stuck at zero no matter what I throw in the tank food wise (Pho was another issue but my new GFO Reactor took care of that overnight)

 

[jsker]

I just wrote a review of BactoBalls. Admittedly it is mostly correlation but my NO3 is stuck at zero no matter what I throw in the tank food wise (Pho was another issue but my new GFO Reactor took care of that overnight)

Remember you need phosphates and nitrate in the system to help with coral growth or the corals with basically starve, even in a low nutrient system

 

[scoopsthedog]

Remember you need phosphates and nitrate in the system to help with coral growth or the corals with basically starve, even in a low nutrient system

Agreed. I am monitoring and increasing my feeding. My theory - completely unfounded - is that with the BactoBalls it eats an excess but because I am dosing carbon via Sodium Ascorbate and feeding with Reef Roids and Polyp Booster there are still nutrients in my tank for the coral. Granted it's only been 6 weeks so I'll keep a log going.

 

[jsker]

Yeah that's how I'm running Siporax just in the bags in the sump. I also have a little less than a gallon of Matrix (I picked over the bad stones). You would think this would be more than enough filtration.

What I use to bring down my phosphates was Phosphate RX that uses lanthanum chloride as one of the main ingredients. Once I got the phosphate under control the nitrates fell in line. I have read about system that have run some crazy high nitrates on look great.

 

[jsker]

Agreed. I am monitoring and increasing my feeding. My theory - completely unfounded - is that with the BactoBalls it eats an excess but because I am dosing carbon via Sodium Ascorbate and feeding with Reef Roids and Polyp Booster there are still nutrients in my tank for the coral. Granted it's only been 6 weeks so I'll keep a log going.

LOL, I like your answer, and that what makes this a great hobby.

 

[domination2580]

I went with this one, link . The Aqua Maxx did a great job. Make sure you run the bio pellet at a medium tumble and no slower. I ran mine to slow and had a tank crash in October and pull the reactor off line at the end of November. I am now running lif bio fil from AF and I am very happy with the results and my nutrients are were I need them to be.

Would I run bio pellets again, yes. As I stated about keep the pellets moving and a medium tumble.

Lif bio fill is out? Where can I get it?