Copper treatment

[Rattzreef]

There is also a sponge filter and a heater. I do have Seachem ammonia badge to monitor that and a temp probe to monitor thee temp also.. that's it for equipment.. pretty simple set up

 

[HotRocks]

I added 4ml more and tested again.. I got a 1.6 reading. Ill test again tomorrow and again Friday to see if any absorption is happening. I have a HOB filter on there with a month and a half old bag with only 1/2 cup of GAC. The package says if the carbon was more than two weeks old to just leave it in there.. I had QT'd a Chromis prior to these two with hypo.. Its possible the carbon has absorbed some but I'll monitor it. I'm ordering more packets this weekend. First time using copper in a QT. its been interesting. LOL the fish are doing fine tho. They're eating at least.

Carbon is likely pulling some out. That would make sense. Especially since the 4ml just basically doubled your level. Which means an increase of .20ppm per ml.

One more ml should bring you to a Cu level of 1.80ppm barring zero absorbtion.

So I would wait 24 hrs. Test. See if you are still at 1.6ppm. if so top off with 1ml and start the clock. If it drops and you don't have additional reagents on the way, I would pull the carbon and dose it back up to the 1.75ppm range then save your remaining tests to check throughout treatment.

 

[Rattzreef]

I seriously thought about pulling the carbon ahead of dosing but read it was "ok" and thought the extra surface area for bacteria would at least be beneficial . I'll certainly be monitoring it. Its quite possible I didn't test accurately the first time also.. that powder reagent is tricky to dump into the cuvette to begin with and to get every grain of powder out is unlikely. I'm guessing those packets are filled consistently but small changes in humidity in the house, I'll bet, can cause caking, and the powder to stuck to the sides of the packet.. I decided against the Ca. checker for that very reason.. powdered reagents are a pain.

 

[starypotter]

I've been doing QT water changes from my DT. New saltwater->DT and DT-> QT.
I dosed Reef Flux for a bryopsis problem about 3 weeks ago, I didn't run a skimmer or use carbon to remove it from DT before I siphoned the water for a QT change. QT just got a 50% change from DT.

I plan to use CopperPower. Do I need to run carbon in QT before I can start copper? Do I need to do a 100% water change? Will it have any interactions with any other medications that maybe I could do before copper?

With that said- fish are showing no signs of disease it's been 1 month since the newest fish was added so I do keep putting off treatment

 

[MetaKnight101]

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either pathogen.

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.4-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Copper Power, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API.

In addition to the aforementioned hobbyist grade test kits, the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) is capable of reading all forms of copper. More info on that and other applicable copper test kits here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have a prolonged life cycle. Indeed, even 30 days may not be sufficient in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

A therapeutic level must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock restarts. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; these should be avoided with copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 5-7 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hour label directions. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. The one exception to this rule is if Marine Velvet Disease is suspected. Due to it's fast killing nature you would want to raise the copper level to therapeutic within 24-48 hours when treating for velvet. Remove copper after 30 days by doing a large water change and using a Poly Filter, Cuprisorb, etc.

Pros - Readily available.

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression and lethargy are both common side effects. If a fish stops eating completely, perform water changes (to lower the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. (Note: Anytime you lower the copper level below therapeutic, the 30 day treatment clock begins anew once the copper is raised back up.)

To see which species copper should and should not be used on, consult this chart: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

When I Do water Changes my copper levels drop, but then I raised them after water change, it dropped slightly but I raised it within few mins does this mean I have to restart the 30 days?

 

[HotRocks]

When I Do water Changes my copper levels drop, but then I raised them after water change, it dropped slightly but I raised it within few mins does this mean I have to restart the 30 days?

You should restart the clock yes. How low did the level drop? How many days into therapeutic treatment were you when this happened?

 

[MetaKnight101]

You should restart the clock yes. How low did the level drop? How many days into therapeutic treatment were you when this happened?

I am using cupramine so it was from 4.5 the dropped down too 3.5 cause I forgot to add copper to the newly mixed saltwater. Well i'm only 8 days into it so no big deal I plan on treating for 30 days.

 

[JumboShrimp]

My technique for CopperSafe: Since it’s one teaspoon to 4 gallons, use a quarantine tank (QT) that you will fill to a multiple of 4s. So 8 gallons, 2 teaspoons. 16 gallons, 4 teaspoons. Then when your water gets dirty, change out a multiple of 4s— e.g., siphon out 4 gallons and pour in 4 new gallons (but mix the new CopperSafe into the new water ahead of time, so the QT water never gets diluted). Note that my Hanna Checker has been giving me readings of slightly greater than 2 at the teaspoon per 4 gallon mix, but my 9 fish in QT are tolerating it well. (And you probably know, replacement water due to evaporation is via non-medicated water.)

 

[Rattzreef]

I was curious, will copper levels drop slowly over time? I've been keeping track of my copper levels in QT since getting my Hanna last week. I dosed 1.5ml on Saturday after pulling the old bag of carbon in the HOB filter earlier in the day when my first test showed it had dropped from the previous levels. I figured I was getting some absorption from the GAC. Its never gotten below therapeutic levels but I have noticed a decrease over the last week. Saturday's test was 1.78ppm. Todays was 1.68ppm. There is a sponge filter connected to an air pump along with the HOB. Its mainly on there for circulation and for when I need to run a poly filter after copper treatment is done. Is it normal for copper levels to fluctuate like that or am I experiencing some absorption there? Perhaps the sponge filter?

 

[JumboShrimp]

Chelated copper (such as in CopperSafe) will stay in solution for the full month you will be using it in your QT— provided you aren’t stripping it out with something (e.g., with activated carbon). Theoretically, if you were using cycled tank water in your QT, and your ammonia didn’t climb, you wouldn’t ‘have’ to do a water change or add copper. (You won’t want to rely on a typical ammonia test kit with the cooper in the tank; a SeaChem Ammonia Badge will be unaffected, so use that.) I assume you don’t have sand or rock in your QT that can absorb copper. If you do, you probably want to be near the upper therapeutic range, in case of some slight absorption.

 

[HotRocks]

I was curious, will copper levels drop slowly over time? I've been keeping track of my copper levels in QT since getting my Hanna last week. I dosed 1.5ml on Saturday after pulling the old bag of carbon in the HOB filter earlier in the day when my first test showed it had dropped from the previous levels. I figured I was getting some absorption from the GAC. Its never gotten below therapeutic levels but I have noticed a decrease over the last week. Saturday's test was 1.78ppm. Todays was 1.68ppm. There is a sponge filter connected to an air pump along with the HOB. Its mainly on there for circulation and for when I need to run a poly filter after copper treatment is done. Is it normal for copper levels to fluctuate like that or am I experiencing some absorption there? Perhaps the sponge filter?

Likely slight absorption. Probably the sponge material. If I had to guess.

 

[Brew12]

Likely slight absorption. Probably the sponge material. If I had to guess.

Agree with this.

It is also possible to lose some from tank evaporation. If you have a large amount of evaporation from your QT you could have noticeable copper loss. We like to think of evaporation as being pure water but it does carry some salt and other stuff (like copper) with it.

 

[Rattzreef]

I can certainly see evaporation playing a factor. And the benefits from having a sponge filter far out weigh not having one even if it does absorb some of the copper. It's a good thing Hanna came out with a more accurate way of monitoring the level and adjust accordingly. Tests like API and others are to close in shade too see accurately IMO

 

[HotRocks]

I can certainly see evaporation playing a factor. And the benefits from having a sponge filter far out weigh not having one even if it does absorb some of the copper. It's a good thing Hanna came out with a more accurate way of monitoring the level and adjust accordingly. Tests like API and others are to close in shade too see accurately IMO

I agree 100%

Testing frequently and adjusting the level is very simple with the Hanna checker.

 

[Fizbang]

How close to the exact time of 14 days of theraputic range does it need to be. I.E. I started dosing the copper power on Monday the 24th and got to the proper range per hanna checker on Friday the 28th. I was pushing it to be done by tomorrow Fri the 12th as I am leaving for vacay. Originally I didn't think I was due to leave till late Friday afternoon, but now I have the opportunity to leave early Friday morning. My plan was to transfer to a clean QT for another 2 weeks, which is basically ready to go. Will it hurt to transfer early in the morning even though it may not have gotten to range till late on Friday the 28th?

 

[HotRocks]

@Fizbang

You should be fine. Any trophonts that were attached to the fish "should" have dropped off the fish in the 7-10 day range.

Since you are leaving I would go ahead and transfer the fish a bit early.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Just a question: Would ‘whomever’ will be caring for and feeding your fish while you are away on vacation not just as easily be able to care for them in your copper-treated tank?... meaning a few more days/week’s in the copper, if you are unsure of the risk of removing them from copper hours/days too early? Either that, or go with @HotRocks

 

[Fizbang]

@Fizbang

You should be fine. Any trophonts that were attached to the fish "should" have dropped off the fish in the 7-10 day range.

Since you are leaving I would go ahead and transfer the fish a bit early.

Thanks, thats good news. I will probably transfer this afternoon then.

 

[Fizbang]

Just a question: Would ‘whomever’ will be caring for and feeding your fish while you are away on vacation not just as easily be able to care for them in your copper-treated tank?... meaning a few more days/week’s in the copper, if you are unsure of the risk of removing them from copper hours/days too early? Either that, or go with @HotRocks

I just didn't want them to have to worry about making sure the copper stayed at the proper levels since they aren't really fish keepers.

 

[HotRocks]

I just didn't want them to have to worry about making sure the copper stayed at the proper levels since they aren't really fish keepers.

This is exactly why I would go ahead and transfer. Much less risk. If the caretaker would let the level drop you would have to restart the clock. Whereas in theory your fish should he clean. Much easier to just have them feed the tank in a non medicated environment.