Help! Is my sand bed dying?

[Apkpswtank]

Hello, new to the forum my name is Andrew nice to meet everyone. Unfortunately I joined cause I'm having a big problem, I believe my sand bed may be dying. I bought this tank used it had been running successfully for 4 years. I took everything from the old tank: fish, sails, live rock , water, and even the sand. I have had the tank set up for about 2 months and both of the peppermint shrimp just died within the same week and now I see the Halloween crab is dead. The sand it covered in black dots on the glass and most concerning is under the tank there is a huge black mass of sand. I'm sure I am not describing this well I am going to attach pictures if I can. I had the water tested 2 weeks ago at Petco everything was fine. But I just noticed the sand looking really bad today, probably started a day or 2 ago. P.s. 65 gallon tank with 15 gallon sump and protein skimmer. Currently 7 small fish 2 nano fish 6-7 snails 5 or so blue leg hermit crabs. Corals candy canes, brains, toadstool leather. p.p.s. I have a fish that kicks up sand from under the rocks so in some areas I see the glass bottom but in others the sand bed is about 4-5 inches deep. I just did a 20% water change. 1)The first picture from the top is a big black area because I decided to stick a pole into the sand because I was watching to much YouTube. 2) pic from under the tank right side cleaning looking sand. 3) what concerns me most pic from under the tank left side looks like death... ? 4)5)6) front of tank sand bed with n without flash tons of tiny black dots have formed recently but otherwise looks healthy to me? But I am no expert . Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

 

[p.pep85]

i have no idea but following to find out.

 

[brandon429]

this thread is cleaning documentation
http://reef2reef.com/threads/the-of...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

everyone has different ways they would react and my way is harshest. Drain water from tank keep fish in their own holding container

Live rock in its own holding container with no corals where possible
Where not possible and corals are glued to rocks, then keep with live rocks keep circulation strong here, detritus needs to come out of your rocks and it sure will, be removing that and changing water in this bucket of rocks, big job ahead for you=reef surgery.


Separate corals like frags, solitaries etc go in their own holding container now you are left with just sand and a little water

To proceed out of order is to risk the entire tank. There are waste pockets that should not be disturbed go in order...everything is removed before any sand is disturbed.

Then throw away the entire sandbed and clean your whole reef, sump and plumbing system with vinegar and peroxide and get it clean 100% new while stuff lives in circulated holding buckets because that's how big the job is to correct your tank and not kill it all.

Get all new caribsea wet pack sand and rinse it per the read above, study before you clean, build a backup plan for errors you foresee in this

Now you have clean tank, plumbing, sump and amazing rinsed sand that cannot cloud. Fill with all new water, make it match the salinity and temp of your holding water.


You didn't let live rock sit in the buckets amid rotting waste collecting in the bottom...it was water changes galore and export. Brushing off areas of accumulation, rock boot camp cleaning, good strong currents in the buckets to help dislodge, a heater too. Big job this is

Put in detritus free live rock back into new water, new sand, clean tank of no silt and detritus. Acclimate corals and fish back in, skip cycle the entire tank we show two large tanks literally doing what i listed above before you act.


Of course there are lesser methods...and they are lesser


Cleaning small sections is more common but not listed in my action due to specific reasons, a rip cleaning done as a skip cycle detritus assault sure is risky, and sure has the payoff you want.

If you store no rotting detritus in your holding buckets and transfer no detritus into the new tank, you will not recycle when set back up.

If you transfer or store rotting detritus during the disassembly and holding then some things will die, that stark of a difference. Expect your live rock to have an amazing amount of detritus that will only come out when it's cleaned, in high current heated storage buckets. You should buy/return like three Amazon heaters for the event. I bought a heater precisely opened to use in my reef, likely someone's rental, a return is a return


After you reassemble the perfectly clean tank using all old rock and any rinsed filter media prior used, you will need to clean the detritus that still pumps out accumulating all week long. Your live rock has that much inside most likely. Where detritus goes also goes the cycle, separate detritus from wildlife at all stages, get no cycle.

 

[Bunnee911]

You have some h2s pockets. This happened to me. I did it the hard way and lost fish. Listen to brandon429. He will direct you thru the easy way.

 

[brandon429]

These are big jobs wow

It's why I must own pico reefs the amount of weekend time this is about to command is too daunting to me, even if one could own fish ~ big tanks too much work imo


I find sandbed rinsing to be practical to the clean reefer, and outlaw to the traditional reefer... many old tanks have sandbeds like OP pictured, they are not disturbed, and the keeper maintains separation between bed waste and DT

John and crew show how to rip clean big tanks in that thread above, this job should be started with pumps and heaters and change water in abundance. the outcome will be exactly what you want unless detritus happens, or holding fish are too tightly packed

If jiffy lube ever changes 60% of my oil and leaves the old filter in place ima demand a refund of my 39.95

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Brandon and I both agree. we disagree.
he hates algae.

nope. its fine. Its a DSB. (please read Ron Shimek Deep sand beds)

you have soo many worms in there so water is flowing through the bed. the micro algaes and cyano are normal. its where light hits the glass.
things to look out for.
The smell of rotten eggs. Hydrogen sulfide. Belive me you will smell it. if bacteria form in no or low oxygen environments it produces this. BUT you have so many worms I doubt this.
The sand should bubble from time to time. Nitrogen gas. Normal. If it bubbles and it smells like rotten eggs see above.
if you have other livestock that digs in the sand, you probably don't have a problem.

Did you recently pest treat the tank, ie flatworm exit, interceptor? that is BAD, and you will have to replace the sand bed.

\How is your pod population(they also aerate the sandbed by tunneling. (yes, the dig)

Im curious, why do you think its dying? Just ugly?

Hs2 should nuke everything in the tank if it happens. IF.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...v_LekPwrIA1Q27eOw&sig2=xR4qSSBOvzNyGfUulWNGTA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...7FaIEvaipUNQzQckw&sig2=fAmcJMQUp02Q3vSIUlPJTg

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

These are big jobs wow

It's why I must own pico reefs the amount of weekend time this is about to command is too daunting to me, even if one could own fish ~ big tanks too much work imo


I find sandbed rinsing to be practical to the clean reefer, and outlaw to the traditional reefer... many old tanks have sandbeds like OP pictured, they are not disturbed, and the keeper maintains separation between bed waste and DT

The time to attack rinse a sandbed is whenever someone wants to. The time to proceed with caution is anytime someone is feeling hesitant.

YUP. I would hesitate.
A dsb can produce suphur, a plane can hit your tour bus too.


I dont see where he has a problem yet. The digging fish should have nuked the tank.

 

[brandon429]

I don't even disagree with that lol, people should literally be able to farm the filthiest beds possible without recourse online among ageless tank elitists

heh

it's already legal in Colorado and Washington to trade in that much detritus regardless of what the others think

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

hahahahahahaha

I don't even disagree with that lol, people should literally be able to farm the filthiest beds possible without recourse online among ageless tank elitists

heh

it's already legal in Colorado and Washington to trade in that much detritus and tuck it away

 

[Apkpswtank]

I really don't have it in me too do the cleaning job Brandon 429 suggested the tank move alone almost killed me 20 plus hours. But if 100% necessary I will do it as I do not want to lose any fish. Saltyfilmfolk I have never pest treated or added any chemicals at all just orange box instant ocean salt when I do my water changes. As far as a pod population I don't have any that I know of my sump is empty just filter pad drip and return pump. I thinks it's dying because that black under and black dots all over happened so rapidly. I prefer the hands off approach letting nature take its course, but would rather intervene then lose any more live stock. What is hs2 hydrogen sulfide? Thanks everyone for these rapid responses. What is the consensus? Let it take its course unless I smell rotten egg smell then do a tank surgery?

 

[Apkpswtank]

ALSO I was told I should have not used the old sand bed from before the move. Other reason I think I have a problem

 

[Apkpswtank]

Lastly while I have all you smart people here. Should I have a light on under the tank i.e. Where black sand is. Is a light under the deep sand bed necessary/ beneficial?

 

[brandon429]

The light will only grow more or less algae it won't impact your bed issues and inclusions.

 

[brandon429]

If not disturbed, even a very old packed in sandbed won't kill fish in the top waster, by design the traditional sandbed method is to maintain separation of waste vs clean water. The sandbed above is missing all the worms from Dr Shimeks ocean examples, but it has 100% detritus included. To clean the bed is to remove liability and future algae issues, it's not very tied to fish health if you keep it's waste out of circulation. I'm sure your system could run a lot longer in current state, but factors seem to indicate cleaning needed... Hard work indeed... daunting work.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I can't get a clear enough picture. But I'm pretty sure these veins you see are worm trails. I have them.
Also they are so many and so well formed I'm not sure I buy that is only been up for a few months.
My oldest Dsb was ony three years old and it looked like that. I transferred it to my current 55 added 40 lbs and it still doesn't look like that after a year and a half.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea. Them are worms.

 

[brandon429]

I was meaning the ones/numbers that prevent bed eutrophication...not that none can be found. Seems if they were working there would be no black spots or measurable waste. I too have some in my bed


Siphon out some lower layer sand into a cup, muddy stuff. Test it for nitrate, test your top water for nitrate and post compare


Def keep the waste, black pocketing if the worms in the bed are priority everyone had a dsb like this in the 90s

If they work, makes one wonder why carbon dosing, ATS, biopellets, azno3, gfo, refugiums were ever needed? It's also amazing to ponder we have never cured an algae issue by transporting an old dsb into a tank, but we fixed them by transporting old dsb's out. I stored up waste a long time too, have tried both clean and rotting waste modes

Parts of a living reef feature this exact sandbed condition, modeling it is not bad, and cleaning it out last week is not bad just different zone modeling.

 

[Wiz]

A deep sandbed will get dead spots or black spots. This is the microfauna dying in the sand usually where disturbed. The decay causes the dangerous gas. If the black continues to grow it can cause a tank crash when that gas escapes. But if you have a fair amount of healthy sandbed (meaning white and populated) the microfauna will feed on the decay and safely export the gas. The dark areas will lighten and disappear. It takes a bit but you will notice one way or the other. So it depends on what happens now. Here is an example of what I'm talking about.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-working-dsb.236532/

 

[Reefrookie220]

I wasn't on Brandon's bandwagon to begin with, all the work and whatnot, but man this forced compliance thing has really really worked for me, I live a busy life and don't always have the time for "traditional" maintenance.


But man I started my nuvo 8 with his sand rinse method and followed his threads and advice from the shadows. And I'll just be honest , this 8 gallons stays algae free essientally and even with the stock 8w led it's easily the best looking tank in the house.

 

[brandon429]

awesome

if anyone tried a power clean and it didn't work pls don't mess up the momentum-post tomorrow, and why did you xfer detritus lol