Help! Is my sand bed dying?

[Wiz]

There are great answers to that. Dsb only function if Set up and maintained properly. Which I'm willing to bet more than 50% are not.Set up and maintained properly. Which I am willing to bet more than 50% are no. The smallest fluctuating in the proper way of doing things can create a very large nitrate Factory.However done correctly it can be the most natural friendly and effective way of keeping your tank cleaned. Of course exporting a bad DSb will fix Problems to an extent. However just getting rid of it will not rid the tank of algaess or nitrates. You must replace it with some form of filter that actually works.All these other methods have come and are necessary for a few reasons. But the main one and most important is that people do not generally make a DSb and maintain it in the right way. One part of what you said is false. Which is that a tank can not be cleaned by installing a DSb. My
tank is living proof that it most certainly can. The necessity of using something else in the time that it takes
you to get the DSb up and running is there. But once the dsb is performing its function those other methods can be removed safely without any affect.

 

[brandon429]

fair enough, but one point should be cleared up too-if you aren't just isolating waste, but have truly neutralized it, then a sample of your mid zone areas for sand/mud/water mix wont test any higher in nitrates than the topwater. I predict a 100:1 ratio in favor of high nitrates.

if your mud is same low nitrate reading, or barely above water table, then you have a functioning bed that requires no export. if you are isolating nitrate at a hundred times that of the topwater, then a precarious balance is whats going on and not that its bad...but ive come to see DSB's not as true filtration systems but as ways to isolate detritus from being impactful in the topwater. per tank dimensions that can only go so far, but, agreed its effective if you aren't overstocked on fish and whole waste producers.

 

[Wiz]

I am a firm believer that a proper dsb with a giod refugium is the most natural and a very affective way to sustain a reef. My 40b is packed tight with every type of coral a bunch of inverts and 12 fish. I broadcast feed and spot feed fairly heavily. I run an undersized skimmer, sm bag of carbon and my 30l dsb refugium. No other filters. Or reactors. :-D

 

[Wiz]

I disagree. The sandbed will naturally hold more nitrate than the water column. That is where it is converted to gas. So the ambient level will always be higher than that of water i. The column. I think a better test would be to test water both entering and leaving the fuge for a drop in waste. I would bet that any sandbed deep or not, healthy or not, will test well higher than surrounding water.

fair enough, but one point should be cleared up too-if you aren't just isolating waste, but have truly neutralized it, then a sample of your mid zone areas for sand/mud/water mix wont test any higher in nitrates than the topwater. I predict a 100:1 ratio in favor of high nitrates.

if your mud is same low nitrate reading, or barely above water table, then you have a functioning bed that requires no export. if you are isolating nitrate at a hundred times that of the topwater, then a precarious balance is whats going on and a matter of time is whats coming. I did nine years myself with only 1 gallon of dilution...that a large tank could do 20 without cleaning out is no surprise. the surprise w be low nitrate mud in the test

 

[brandon429]

that was always the claim of the DSB benefit, but, they produce not reduce nitrates for the masses so some aspect prevents that measurable benefit from occurring, but only for the majority of reefers. Natural nitrate reduction turned out to be very hard to replicate, so those other methods came about due to more consistency in actual reduction vs producing it as extra bioload

I know there are very long term running dsbs not poisoning the topwater with waste, but im thinking the masses either overstock the ideal DSB or keep it turned over and aerated such that it doesn't function. I think getting worms and NNR and bioloading to work in unison, the heart of the Berlin method, isn't easy to command we had 20 yrs to make it that way but somehow people were getting less tank nutrients vs with a dsb (how many zeovit tanks run a dsb for example...the bare bottom crew went that way due to wastes in the topwater eventually we watched them online for years try smaller dsb, deeper dsb, it all just kept pumping nitrates into most tanks)

Im all for keeping aged beds in place if they aren't harming anything. fixing algae issues around a sinked up bed is really hard though, we like to clean those.

 

[brandon429]

Check out Scotts tank midway down here

http://reef2reef.com/threads/are-there-recipes-for-successful-reef-keeping-yeah-there-are.244745/

its the type of dsb ya'll are talking about. they are still in use but must be implemented carefully to work agreed

 

[Wiz]

I agree. This is because the balance that allows a dsb to function properly is very hard to achieve if not done properly. It has to be done just right. And one sand stiring star or gobie, one vacuuming, one snail that eats worms, one temp swing or spike that kills the microfauna or bacteria and the entire balance is lost. Even the wrong type of sand or adding crushed Coral can sabotage it from the start.Even the wrong type of sand or adding crushed coral can sabotage it from the start. There are so many people that do not understand the workings of a DSb or how to achieve it that then condemned it.
I can testify to the idea that a DSb will lower nitrate and phosphate because it worked in my system. I had high nitrate and phosphate when I started. I had to use a reactor with gfo And a lot of Macros to keep it in line. After a month of the dsb fuge being connected i took the reactor off line. It has been a long time since then. Occasionally i feed to heavy and get a small nitrate spike. But skip a feeding or two and right back in line. the amount of nitrifing bacteria in my system holds perfect as long as i feed the same all the time.

that was always the claim of the DSB benefit, but, they produce not reduce nitrates for the masses so some aspect prevents that measurable benefit from occurring, but only for the majority of reefers. Natural nitrate reduction turned out to be very hard to replicate, so those other methods came about due to more consistency in actual reduction vs producing it as extra bioload

 

[Wiz]

I got to tell you Brandon I really appreciate that you debate without getting angry. It is a rare thing and it is the only way that we achieve a better understanding.I have never considered the idea that my sand bed might be just containing the nitrate. I'm not so sure that it is true. But I find myself trying to organize my thoughts on the subject. And questioning my preconceptions.It is definitely an avenue for research.

 

[Wiz]

I might be missing something here. I do not see anything regarding a DSb on this thread. Nor do I see any pictures of a dsb. Can you help me out?

Check out Scotts tank midway down here

http://reef2reef.com/threads/are-there-recipes-for-successful-reef-keeping-yeah-there-are.244745/

its the type of dsb ya'll are talking about. they are still in use but must be implemented carefully to work agreed

 

[Wiz]

I see the picture toward the bottom that looks similar to a DSb. However I cannot be sure that it is properly constructed by the picture. And I am very curious what the black stuff at the bottom is.
I thought it was a freshwater tank at first. LOL

 

[Wiz]

I am not exactly sure how the nitrate working its way into the sand Works. So it's hard for me to comment on this. I need more research apparently. However, it does make sense that the sand would be nitrate rich. The anaerobic bacteria form at the bottom of the sand bed and are The bacteria that Transform the nitrate to gas and let it Escape. In order for the bacteria to be effective at removing nitrate The nitrate must obviously be in the sand for it to get to.The only way that bacteria would Thrive and continue to perform its function is if the sand had nitrate in it. If the sand did not have nitrate in it the bacteria would have no food source and dissipate. Or at least that is my understanding

fair enough, but one point should be cleared up too-if you aren't just isolating waste, but have truly neutralized it, then a sample of your mid zone areas for sand/mud/water mix wont test any higher in nitrates than the topwater. I predict a 100:1 ratio in favor of high nitrates.

if your mud is same low nitrate reading, or barely above water table, then you have a functioning bed that requires no export. if you are isolating nitrate at a hundred times that of the topwater, then a precarious balance is whats going on and not that its bad...but ive come to see DSB's not as true filtration systems but as ways to isolate detritus from being impactful in the topwater. per tank dimensions that can only go so far, but, agreed its effective if you aren't overstocked on fish and whole waste producers.

 

[Wiz]

Sorry if I'm rambling. But this is interresting. I want to get a better handle on it so I may better preach for dsb.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Sorry if I'm rambling. But this is interresting. I want to get a better handle on it so I may better preach for dsb.

I am not exactly sure how the nitrate working its way into the sand Works. So it's hard for me to comment on this. I need more research apparently. However, it does make sense that the sand would be nitrate rich. The anaerobic bacteria form at the bottom of the sand bed and are The bacteria that Transform the nitrate to gas and let it Escape. In order for the bacteria to be effective at removing nitrate The nitrate must obviously be in the sand for it to get to.The only way that bacteria would Thrive and continue to perform its function is if the sand had nitrate in it. If the sand did not have nitrate in it the bacteria would have no food source and dissipate. Or at least that is my understanding

that is a remote dsb. its being pulled from the water colum. Hello>>>>dissolved organics

Scott is a totally cool guy btw. Hes on wet web media too. Im sure you could PM him.

And this guy could use one. I like that he blames the coral.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/so-you-think-you-want-to-keep-xenia.103328/

 

[brandon429]

Heres another aspect that supports Salty's and Wiz's sandbed approach-people blending info from large tanks and nano tanks aren't really comparing same systems. the ideal nutrient exchanges, in the right timing to not pump out waste into the tank, are easier harnessed in traditional-sized reef tanks where dilution helps and makes a difference in my guesstimate...overall sandbed area changes etc. if we think about it, we usually speak in inches deep to describe them, maybe grain size, not much else. all lumped after those two factors

not sure we can accurately compare notes when we lump sandbeds all into one performance category or even setup approach unless gallonage is factored. I get my pure skepticism about sinked beds from owning nanos and being around them constantly but the larger setups where timing changes may be getting very different readings. the only thing that still keeps me on the cleaning side knowing those differences, and the extra work involved vs hands off, is there is still the requirement to not disturb the bed due to liabilities and the clean system simply has no downside except for the extra work. the hands off mode when balanced is more natural, a bit harder to command than the clean approach especially in smaller tanks Im thinking.

 

[klp]

Following. I had decided against a deep sand bed. I just bought the Secrets book on Amazon and will research further. I detest depending on external equipment but we all do what we need to do. The more we can get rid of the better. If I do setup one I am thinking in the fuge not the DT. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Following. I had decided against a deep sand bed. I just bought the Secrets book on Amazon and will research further. I detest depending on external equipment but we all do what we need to do. The more we can get rid of the better. If I do setup one I am thinking in the fuge not the DT. Thanks for the discussion.

Yup on my next build.
And were I to advise a new person I say the same, shallow in the DT so you can vacuum and easily rebuild and deep clean, DSB an fuge downstairs. I think it keeps the "guts" of the system that way out of sight.

Oh Ill probably do a reverse UG in my next build too. And Keep the Fuge open so I can see my bugs. But hey, thats me.

 

[Wiz]

Exactly why I like my side by side. Got to see the worms and bugs. LOL

Yup on my next build.
And were I to advise a new person I say the same, shallow in the DT so you can vacuum and easily rebuild and deep clean, DSB an fuge downstairs. I think it keeps the "guts" of the system that way out of sight.

Oh Ill probably do a reverse UG in my next build too. And Keep the Fuge open so I can see my bugs. But hey, thats me.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Question for the pro DSB guys. Do you think the marine pure block 8" x 4" x 4" is capable of hosting the same microfauna and anaerobic bacteria a DSB could? Tunnels already exist... I have mine in the sump and turned vertically so it is 8" tall.

 

[Wiz]

I haVe no experience with the blocks. If its what I saw on the brs 160at the beggining I doubt they would do the same job. I would think it would be hard to host them. And they would get clogged. but that's just my impression of the idea. I honestly have no idea.

 

[john.m.cole3]

BRS used the plates. same product but the block is 4x as thick