High Alkalinity what does it really cause

[Judson_f]

That’s calcium carbonate, not calcium bicarbonate.

Yes, that was corrected just above ^^
my apologies on the added syllable

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes, that was corrected just above ^^
my apologies on the added syllable

Oh woops, I didn’t see the part where you mentioned that.

 

[Judson_f]

Home from work, aforementioned rocks have been gone for 24 hours now - otherwise no other changes - and alkalinity is down from 14.5 to 12dKH while pH is reading between 8 & 8.2 on red sea kit, and reading 8.2 on API test kit.

Temp 78
dKH 12
pH 8.1

Again I’m new, just logging this literally as it’s happening. Seems like those rocks were absolutely the culprit & my pH before, during, and after rock presence has remained stable at or about 8

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right, it’s innocuous and not causing any issues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Again I’m new, just logging this literally as it’s happening. Seems like those rocks were absolutely the culprit & my pH before, during, and after rock presence has remained stable at or about 8

I do not believe it. I think issues lie elsewhere , likely including inaccurate alk testing.

 

[Judson_f]

I do not believe it. I think issues lie elsewhere , likely including inaccurate alk testing.

… I have a Hanna tester I’ll go get out of my truck in the morning. I did a water change and tested again & alkalinity is still dropping. I’ve tested alkalinity 4 times the last 2 days and it’s steady decreasing. Maybe the Red Sea test kit is weird. I’m heading to a fish shop this weekend so I’ll get another brand too. I’m not a scientist. I’m just telling you guys literally what is happening in my tank.

Better yet I just went back to the Amazon link - please guys go check it out. On product images look at the image of the back of the box. The last sentence literally specifically says “Fragzone is calcium carbonate based, and may increase pH and alkalinity in both marine and freshwater systems.”

Again. Not scientist. But there are way too many dang coincidences here to be just that.

 

[Judson_f]

Also rude. Lol I can read testing instructions.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Also rude. Lol I can read testing instructions.

not that it's user error, tests can be wonky sometimes, I'd test a fresh batch of known saltwater and see what the value is with your test kit.

if you test a 5g of newly made up redsea blue bucket saltwater and it's reading what the bucket says it's a good chance your test results are accurate, if so just add some alkalinity to bring up your tank value, then test again in 30 minutes to see if there is a change in your test results, no scientists needed lol

here's an easy calculator for adding alkalinity solutions to your tank.

Alkalinity Supplement Calculator - Bulk Reef Supply

Bulk Reef Supply - Saltwater Aquarium Supplies for Reef Tanks

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Judson_f]

not that it's user error, tests can be wonky sometimes, I'd test a fresh batch of known saltwater and see what the value is with your test kit.

if you test a 5g of newly made up redsea blue bucket saltwater and it's reading what the bucket says it's a good chance your test results are accurate, if so just add some alkalinity to bring up your tank value, then test again in 30 minutes to see if there is a change in your test results, no scientists needed lol

here's an easy calculator for adding alkalinity solutions to your tank.

Alkalinity Supplement Calculator - Bulk Reef Supply

Bulk Reef Supply - Saltwater Aquarium Supplies for Reef Tanks

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Lol thanks everyone, it’s past my bed time I must be cranky this dang alkalinity been stressing me out enough as it is.

I’ve got some salt water in my mixing station I’ll test tomorrow and see - that’s a good idea just to verify.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Again. Not scientist. But there are way too many dang coincidences here to be just that.

lol

I am an expert scientist with a PhD from Harvard in chemistry, and that statement is incorrect for calcium carbonate in seawater at any alk and pH above pH 7.7 and 6 dKH.

I don't suggest believing a package label from some random unknown brand when it conflicts with known and accepted science. Such bogus statements is a large reason why we have this forum. The world is filled with misinformation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also rude. Lol I can read testing instructions.

To suggest the result might be test error?

I can read too, but that does not mean that all kits work correctly, nor that I have used them correctly every time.

Test inaccuracy is the most common cause of strange results, and most of the time it is not user error.

 

[Judson_f]

To suggest the result might be test error?

I can read too, but that does not mean that all kits work correctly, nor that I have used them correctly every time.

Test inaccuracy is the most common cause of strange results, and most of the time it is not user error.

WELL. I don't know what else it could possibly be then, do you have any ideas? I didn't intend to start a debate anyways I thought I was just answering the thread topic with what is experience of what is actually currently happening in my tank.
I have a shallow/medium sand bed, dry live rock from BRS, a canister filter. The life rock tree kit thing i have has a rod down the middle? I use 7 stage RODI water from BRS so water should be good. Tank is 9 months old with 3 fish & some coral.

What about this - when i get home from work this afternoon I'll test freshly mixed RODI/salt from my bucket, theres a CHANCE i got a bad bucket and it coincided with the calcium carbonate rock timeline?

I'm thinking the only way to officially disprove this (besides for running tests on fresh mix/batch) is to get 2 five gallon buckets. Test water qualities, submerge suspect rocks in one bucket - keep other as control bucket. Perform daily tests on the water's alkalinity & pH. Would that potentially help solve this?

And apologies on the rude comment, it was late when i sat down to read it last night and I read it the wrong way.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm thinking the only way to officially disprove this (besides for running tests on fresh mix/batch) is to get 2 five gallon buckets. Test water qualities, submerge suspect rocks in one bucket - keep other as control bucket. Perform daily tests on the water's alkalinity & pH. Would that potentially help solve this?

It is certainly a fine experiment to take some new salt water, measure parameters, put in some of those rocks, and retest later.

Make sure there are no suspended fine particles in any alk or calcium test as they will dissolve in the test and give a false high reading.

 

[Judson_f]

It is certainly a fine experiment to take some new salt water, measure parameters, put in some of those rocks, and retest later.

Make sure there are no suspended fine particles in any alk or calcium test as they will dissolve in the test and give a false high reading.

Okay, sounds like the plan then. I'll get out the hannah tester i've had sitting in my truck for a month now too so we can get two different brand test results on each.

I got thinking about it more and I think i'm going to run this 'experiment' twice. Two buckets with fresh batch and 1 with those rocks. Then two buckets with my tank water and 1 those rocks just out of curiosity. I realized my tank water is probably not a good control group in case there IS something else going on and we're strictly testing these rocks right now.

Last thought while I was sitting at work thinking about this, you had said don't believe what you read on the packaging and it hit me - what if you're right but we thought of that the wrong way? Not 'it will raise Alk' but what if it's not calcium carbonate rock? Could there be something else in them? Do you know of any other rock/material that could be in the rock that would cause this confusion? Or is that just as unlikely?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, sounds like the plan then. I'll get out the hannah tester i've had sitting in my truck for a month now too so we can get two different brand test results on each.

I got thinking about it more and I think i'm going to run this 'experiment' twice. Two buckets with fresh batch and 1 with those rocks. Then two buckets with my tank water and 1 those rocks just out of curiosity. I realized my tank water is probably not a good control group in case there IS something else going on and we're strictly testing these rocks right now.

Last thought while I was sitting at work thinking about this, you had said don't believe what you read on the packaging and it hit me - what if you're right but we thought of that the wrong way? Not 'it will raise Alk' but what if it's not calcium carbonate rock? Could there be something else in them? Do you know of any other rock/material that could be in the rock that would cause this confusion? Or is that just as unlikely?

It is possible it is not calcium carbonate. If it is cement, it may raise alk and pH. Not many natural rocks will do anything.

Running tankw ater is fine.

FWIW, alk may actually drop in both the new salt water and in the one with rock added as calcium carboante preciptiates.

 

[Judson_f]

It is possible it is not calcium carbonate. If it is cement, it may raise alk and pH. Not many natural rocks will do anything.

Running tankw ater is fine.

FWIW, alk may actually drop in both the new salt water and in the one with rock added as calcium carboante preciptiates.

So I haven’t got to do the little experiment yet. Had to fix u joints on my truck & some other stuff - also found out the Hannah tester in my truck did not have any reagent left. Nevertheless-
I DID go ahead and test a fresh batch of salt water when doing a water change today & tested my tank. Tank is STILL high (not AS high but still high)
Tonight’s panel as follows:

June 12
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 77.6
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5-10ppm
Phosphate: <0.1ppm
Calcium: 400ppm
Magnesium: 1360ppm
Alkalinity: 10.5dKH

Freshly mixed water though? Alkalinity was 8.5dKH

What the heck do I have in my tank that’s raising it this is so frustrating. I’m going to order more re agent tonight to have a second test kit to verify anyways.

I used a fiberglass driveway marker stick to act as a rod to hold a couple pieces of rock together. I have a magnetic frag rack, two algae clips, an Eheim heater & a fluval heater, 2 jebao wavemakers, the caribsea liferock tree thing that has some kind of rod going through it, and a temp sensor probe. Those are all/only foreign objects left in that tank - it’s running on a canister fx4 that gets cleaned out every two weeks. Due to no sump I don’t have a protein skimmer & sometimes wonder if it gets enough air transfer even tho I have a return from canister disrupting surface tension, and I did put a bag of petsmart carbon in there a month ago ish? Could ANY of this cause alkalinity to raise? Lol I’m going nuts

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I haven’t got to do the little experiment yet. Had to fix u joints on my truck & some other stuff - also found out the Hannah tester in my truck did not have any reagent left. Nevertheless-
I DID go ahead and test a fresh batch of salt water when doing a water change today & tested my tank. Tank is STILL high (not AS high but still high)
Tonight’s panel as follows:

June 12
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 77.6
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5-10ppm
Phosphate: <0.1ppm
Calcium: 400ppm
Magnesium: 1360ppm
Alkalinity: 10.5dKH

Freshly mixed water though? Alkalinity was 8.5dKH

What the heck do I have in my tank that’s raising it this is so frustrating. I’m going to order more re agent tonight to have a second test kit to verify anyways.

I used a fiberglass driveway marker stick to act as a rod to hold a couple pieces of rock together. I have a magnetic frag rack, two algae clips, an Eheim heater & a fluval heater, 2 jebao wavemakers, the caribsea liferock tree thing that has some kind of rod going through it, and a temp sensor probe. Those are all/only foreign objects left in that tank - it’s running on a canister fx4 that gets cleaned out every two weeks. Due to no sump I don’t have a protein skimmer & sometimes wonder if it gets enough air transfer even tho I have a return from canister disrupting surface tension, and I did put a bag of petsmart carbon in there a month ago ish? Could ANY of this cause alkalinity to raise? Lol I’m going nuts

Falling nitrate concentrations and slow dissolution of rock and sand deep inside (where degradation of organics lowers pH) slowly add alk to the tank, and is not unusual. Normally that contribution is lost under high demand for alk, but in a tank with low demand for alk, it can stabilize or even raise alkalinity.

An alk of 10.5 dKH is fine and I'd just keep monitoring it over time. If you have SPS corals, be sure nitrate and phosphate do not drop too low, or else you can risk burnt tips.

If it keeps rising and water changes are not keeping it down, one can lower the alk in the water change water (or even the tank itself, but i do not recommend that).

 

[Judson_f]

Falling nitrate concentrations and slow dissolution of rock and sand deep inside (where degradation of organics lowers pH) slowly add alk to the tank, and is not unusual. Normally that contribution is lost under high demand for alk, but in a tank with low demand for alk, it can stabilize or even raise alkalinity.

An alk of 10.5 dKH is fine and I'd just keep monitoring it over time. If you have SPS corals, be sure nitrate and phosphate do not drop too low, or else you can risk burnt tips.

If it keeps rising and water changes are not keeping it down, one can lower the alk in the water change water (or even the tank itself, but i do not recommend that).

Thank you Randy! I still plan on doing that little experiment when I get some time. I’m going to get an even more precise phosphate kit where I’m always between 0 & .1 and nitrates have always been stable between 5-10 for my system thankfully with my regular maintenance routine. I think I may just reef roid the tank twice a week instead of once to see if it helps keep nitrates closer to 10.

One final question - albeit off topic - if you don’t mind; my calcium and magnesium are slightly lower than I want them to be for the SPS I have (only beginner ones like monti & birdsnest) if stony coral uses alkalinity - should I just get a couple more frags of it to try and aid in alkalinity consumption & dose a little bit of calcium to try and balance it out better?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy! I still plan on doing that little experiment when I get some time. I’m going to get an even more precise phosphate kit where I’m always between 0 & .1 and nitrates have always been stable between 5-10 for my system thankfully with my regular maintenance routine. I think I may just reef roid the tank twice a week instead of once to see if it helps keep nitrates closer to 10.

One final question - albeit off topic - if you don’t mind; my calcium and magnesium are slightly lower than I want them to be for the SPS I have (only beginner ones like monti & birdsnest) if stony coral uses alkalinity - should I just get a couple more frags of it to try and aid in alkalinity consumption & dose a little bit of calcium to try and balance it out better?

The current magnesium and calcium are fine, IMO, but boosting them a bit is also a fine plan. If you just raise the salinity to the ocean average 35 ppt 9sg = 1.0264), then calcium will rise to 422 ppm and magnesium to 1436 ppm.

 

[Judson_f]

The current magnesium and calcium are fine, IMO, but boosting them a bit is also a fine plan. If you just raise the salinity to the ocean average 35 ppt 9sg = 1.0264), then calcium will rise to 422 ppm and magnesium to 1436 ppm.

thank you sir! I will do that little experiment soon & post it back here so maybe we can see if that rock was something to be avoided or not. Again thank you for all your advice and knowledge on this!