Is Reefing Dying?

[Antics]

I agree that the use of porous rock that contained huge amounts of denitrifying bacteria greatly advanced the ability to keep a low-nitrate tank. There is a lot of 'speculation' as to the other stuff on 'live rock' that was supposedly beneficial - but I'm not sure thats true - and if you buy a little live rock you can build up the benefits.

The reason (I thought) that people changed from live rock to 'dead rock' was 1)Difficulty in the curing process, 2). Hitchhikers, 3) Cost, 4) Dead rock seemed to work as well if used properly. I do not understand the logic of saying dead rock is causing a problem - unless you can definitively state what the 'magic ingredient' in Live rock is that is causing the dramatic benefit. IMHO using cured coral rock with everything 'killed' by whatever method - is the equivalent of 'live rock' that has been cured wet.

If by 'dead rock' you are talking about 'man-made' rock of various substances, Im not sure these are as successful as natural rock

I think there is a significant (although not a majority) group of people (especially in terms of high end SPS/Acros) that believe that natural live rock (or very, very, mature/established dry rock) has some inherent benefits that make it easier or more successful in keeping these more challenging corals prosperous. I think the general theory is that live rock has numerous other components to it other than nitrifying bacteria and because of this a simple cycle and fish does not make dry rock a suitable equivalent. As tanks with dry rock mature the ecosystem (for lack of a better word) begins to fully diversify and bring in the necessary environment for these higher end corals to really thrive.

Now... I don't think this is necessarily true or even something you can easily quantify as I had to be rather vague just describing the school of thought. However, surely the live rock from a well aged, very well cared for tank is going to have SOME benefit to it over bleached dry rock that has been introduced to a sterile new system that is 6 months old. What specifically? I'll let someone with more expertise tackle that.

 

[Forsaken77]

I bought what was supposed to be a 3" Magnificent Foxface from some unreputable online fish factory for $130 because for over a year I couldn't find this fish locally. A full grown beautiful adult fish arrived instead of the 3" I ordered. I was refunded and left with a fish I couldn't properly house at that period of time.

3 months later, one of my LFS's had this a beautiful 3" Magnificent Foxface for $60. I asked if the price was correct because they're usually just shy of $100 at best. He told me the fish had been there for almost a month because people think even $60 for a saltwater fish is a lot, especially when other Foxfaces are half the price (though not as MAGNIFICENT )

I scooped that fish up and now both of my Mag's live peacefully together (which had to be done very methodically).

But I think people get into the hobby because it looks great, but have unrealistic expectations, or just plain ignorance, about how much time, effort, knowledge and money it costs. That's just the livestock.

I also think LFS's are having a tougher time competing with online sales, so some places tell people bad advice just to make a buck. That eventually will drive people out of the hobby because they feel like they're doing things right, according to the advice, but end up flushing money down the toilet. They buy fish that are incompatible (why did my small lionfish eat my clown?) and think they should cut their losses.

It's a different time now then it was 20 years ago.

 

[Dan I]

I believe many people want high success with little involvement in their tanks. In addition, not a lot of good fish stores around. For example, I have no luck with keeping fish alive from online vendors. Fortunately, I have a good LFS by me that supplies quality fish and take custom orders.

 

[Antics]

But I think people get into the hobby because it looks great, but have unrealistic expectations, or just plain ignorance, about how much time, effort, knowledge and money it costs. That's just the livestock.

This is so true about hobbies in general and life as a whole. A lot of people generally underestimate the effort to do something well. Some chalk it up to just "learning" how to do it and *BOOM* anyone can be an expert. It's the age old "talent vs hard work" mentality. I think reefing really taps into this more so than others because a lot of people think of it as something you just buy.

Anyone that has worked in a fish store can attest to how ignorant (new) people are to aquariums and especially reef tanks. Anyone who walks in the door and says 'I want to set up a saltwater tank" will 9 times out of 10 point at the LFS display with 15-30,000$ worth of equipment and live stock and say "something like this" with the idea that it will cost 300$ and take a couple days to achieve. People don't realize the amount of work, learning, and trial and error that is required to be successful... ESPECIALLY in the long term of YEARS.

 

[ArowanaLover1902]

I don't know, I'd say the hobby is dying, my reasons for this would be:
1. Unarguably it is crazy difficult and expensive to find good coral, and the time it takes for the $50 sliver you just bought is crazy.
2. Way too many of the generic fish are kept in stores, I know these sell great, but I doubt these really get people into the hobby (I started because I want a moray eel/octopus, still don't have either though ha ha ha)
3. Equipment prices are ridiculous, there are so many new "must haves" and I'm not seeing any actual improvements.
4. I think one of the biggest factors is the "instant setup" such as the biocube (don't get me wrong, I use one, but heavily modified). It can lure in the unexperiened and then, when they find that there are probably 50 more things to buy, they just sell it on Craigslist.

My thesis: our hobby is dying because of the insane commercialization we have allowed to develop. The ridiculous prices and exclusive online market have killed our LFS, which were not only our stores, but a community center.

My proposed solution: Increased goodwill among reefers, try to help the novices and shy them away from the "no more maintenance and water changes" equipment, and lowering the market price of corals by avoiding the "rare super exclusive ultimate edition limited glow-in-the-dark never seen before must have corals" (that have really been around forever). The combination of these two actions would decrease the prices of our hobby, allowing us better reefs, and help to secure the hobby for posterity.

 

[Mattrg02]

For me, whenever I contemplate getting out, or just going silent for a few months, it's usually because something went sideways and my corals died.

Seeing decent frags, from fellow hobbyists, go for hundreds of dollars just discourages me when I think about getting back in.

I swear, if I could grow em like the best of them, I'd kill the market with great prices. I've come across a few reefers on this forum that gave me very fair prices, it's just rare.

Nothing like obsessive care being negated by one "slip up" and losing $400 of frag nubs to knock the fight right out. Same for getting bugs from a fellow reefer.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

As a newbie myself, it just gets really frustrating. There is SO much information it is so difficult to determine what you need, what you don't need. There is just so much stuff...it is overwhelming! I also find that I spend several hours a week on my tank, just tweaking things. I feel a lot of ppl are under the impression you can buy fancy equipment and that will negate the need to work on it. So then, they don't get perfect tanks in 6 months and bail.

I don't spend 2 hours a week on my tank. The right equipment sized properly does save time. Proper planning before you setup also saves time in the long run. You don't need fancy equipment, I don't own an Apex. Most time for a newbie should be reading and more reading. Constant tweaking means no stability and stability is more important that have exact numbers on your parameter. They should be close but stable not exact.

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

It is a complex, expensive hobby with a high drop out rate. Kind of like scuba diving. Doesn't mean the hobby is disappearing. It chews through a lot of people but still produces hard core crazies.

 

[Forsaken77]

I disagree with this statement. One of the best reefers I know with well over 30 years experience doesn't have a tank at this time. Does his advice mean less because he doesn't have a tank up now to show? Absolutely not.

I agree with you. Plus there are many roads to get to the same destination. 3 people can give completely different advice and all 3 can be correct. In this hobby there are numerous ways to accomplish things.

 

[ArowanaLover1902]

I also don't use any equipment over $200, I just refuse. I bought a biocube 29 for 190, but that's really both a tank and filter, I also bought my lighting for $135. I needed an overflow for my refugium and I didn't want to drill, the best price I could find was $100, that's ridiculous, its a piece of plastic. I went to lowes and made my own (it works way better too ha ha ha) for only $20. I almost never check my tank's parameters unless a problem starts up, I just go by what I know and avoid problems with water changes, UV, skimming, a good sump, and a fuge. I feel like a really good reefer should kinda build a good amount of his own stuff and avoid the overpriced market (I still haven't found a way around lighting though, one of these days)

 

[Bruce Burnett]

I don't think much has changed. I also don't think it's cyclical.

I believe you have your "long-termers" who have great patients and have taken their time to set up their tanks...and therefore remain in the hobby for years. And then you have the "two-yearers". These are the impetuous ones who rush everything, talk about how great their system is going to be, buy top end equipment, and are out of the hobby within 2 years. Unfortunately I believe this is more the norm. For us long termers, it's a great opportunity to buy quality used equipment, but overall, bad for the hobby.


It's a hobby with a high turnover.

JMTC

I agree I am not as details as some of the long timers but I started out in the early 80s after doing fresh water tanks for over 10 years. It really is about learning, planning taking your time buy good equipment but does not have to be the most expensive. I can go away for up to 2 weeks at a time come home clean skimmer and glass refill ATO and leave for 2 more weeks if I had too. Health issues had me out of hobby for almost 7 years. People that tweak thing on their tank daily will have problems. For me it is where the price of fish and corals have gone. I can remeeber buying fist sized colonies for less than almost all frags today. What people pay for a favia only about 1-2 inches across is about what i paid for my first one that was 5-6 inches.

 

[ArowanaLover1902]

I guess this is a bit more controversial but to be honest, it seems to me that forums (note the plural) have really hurt us. There are so many and it really divides the hobby. Bringing it together under larger forums would really help unite everyone.

 

[DSC reef]

I agree with you. Plus there are many roads to get to the same destination. 3 people can give completely different advice and all 3 can be correct. In this hobby there are numerous ways to accomplish things.

Very true my friend

 

[Leslie Tabor]

I don't spend 2 hours a week on my tank. The right equipment sized properly does save time. Proper planning before you setup also saves time in the long run. You don't need fancy equipment, I don't own an Apex. Most time for a newbie should be reading and more reading. Constant tweaking means no stability and stability is more important that have exact numbers on your parameter. They should be close but stable not exact.

I didn't mean "tweaking" as in my tank is not stable...I don't dose, nor do I have an Apex. Just talking basics from someone who spent 2 years researching before setting up a tank. Even without getting crazy there is still a lot going on. Reading about dosing made my heart explode, hence I do my weekly water changes, clean my glass regularly, storm my rock work, change filter socks every 3 days, wipe things down to prevent creep, clean pumps and power heads every 3 months, caring for me sand bed...these from my experience are the more important things most people don't want to do...so they run out and buy an Apex or the next generation skimmer or light...etc. That is what I spend time doing with my tank every week. It is this notion that having equipment means you don't have to work to achieve a beautiful tank that makes people quit. My tank is less work now at year 2 but that is 2 years of blood, sweat, tears, and then dollars to get there.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

I agree that the use of porous rock that contained huge amounts of denitrifying bacteria greatly advanced the ability to keep a low-nitrate tank. There is a lot of 'speculation' as to the other stuff on 'live rock' that was supposedly beneficial - but I'm not sure thats true - and if you buy a little live rock you can build up the benefits.

The reason (I thought) that people changed from live rock to 'dead rock' was 1)Difficulty in the curing process, 2). Hitchhikers, 3) Cost, 4) Dead rock seemed to work as well if used properly. I do not understand the logic of saying dead rock is causing a problem - unless you can definitively state what the 'magic ingredient' in Live rock is that is causing the dramatic benefit. IMHO using cured coral rock with everything 'killed' by whatever method - is the equivalent of 'live rock' that has been cured wet.

If by 'dead rock' you are talking about 'man-made' rock of various substances, Im not sure these are as successful as natural rock

I'd like to be able to respond with some good articles or scientific data on the benefits of real ocean live rock, but they are virtually non-existent. I've been able to find some mentions of it here and there and am trying to find more good info as to the "why" because this is a topic that really interests me. I'd like to reply in an intelligent manor and admittedly, not a scientist or even close to one but here goes: I'm not referring to "magic rocks". I'm basing this comment you quoted on my observations working in the aquarium industry professionally with literally hundreds of tanks over the years and my own experiences setting up tanks with both dead dry rock, artificial man made rock, and real ocean live rock. I think we can all agree that a reef tank goes through a stabilization and maturation process, yes? The old guard like Anthony Calfo and others used to say that it look about 1 year before a reef tank had matured. It is my theory that the life contained within live ocean rock including bacteria, sponges, tunicates, detrivores like micro brittle stars, peanut worms, amphipods, copepods, bristle worms, and more help speed up the maturation process and allow for greater margin of error in regards to limiting nutrients and algae growth. The micro and macro fauna contained in live rock, that would "awaken" after a couple to a few weeks would eventually establish a mini ecosystem in the reef tank based on available nutrients. This complex "web of life" I will call it worked behind the scenes consuming detritus and filtering the water.
In a tank that is absent this life, there is reduced competition for available nutrients so things like Dinos and Cyano proliferate in their absence. Depending on the rock and what condition it is in it may have needed to be "cycled" or "cured". With some rock you could start a cycle with the die off on the rock. Other rock was clean and already cured basically ready to go into a tank. This was not a difficult process any more than soaking dead Pukani in bleach or acid is so it doesn't leech nitrate and phosphate into the tank for months. People tried all sorts of things when it came to live rock. Some over thought it and came up with things like "cooking" rock or whatever in effort to kill off whatever perceived evils the rock contained. Hitchhikers could be a pain, that is true. However, with a healthy well maintained system that had good nutrient export, most things like Aiptasia could be kept in check and dealt with with the various tools available. It is my opinion and observation that new hobbyists were more likely to be successful in reef keeping back when real ocean live rock was used as the primary source for biological filtration due to reasons stated above. I'm not trying to say that a tank started with dead rock or artificial rock cannot be successful or eventually lead to a healthy system, just that it makes it more difficult and takes longer to have that mini ecosystem.

 

[Joshua Warne]

I'm going to have to say it's the expense that is driving people out of the hobby. Salt $72 a bucket, rodi $130, refill canisters $30, gfo $30, reactor $90, fish food $8 a pack, electicity...... I mean come on. I'm all for making a living, but god dang. That and people who think they're the best thing since sliced bread. It's insane how some people talk to others in our hobby.

 

[reef80]

Good stuff fellow reefers! Def a tumultuous relationship for me also for sure and lately I’ve been feeling kinda of like ehhh...been so busy and consume with life and family.

On another note....theres a ton of reefers out there that don’t do the social media reefer thing or don’t frequent online forums like such...i think there’s an undertone of new and thriving reefers out there that outnumber those that stop or leave for whatever reasons...

 

[Ferrell]

My two cents... I kept fish only tanks in Florida and in the 80s and 90s from 20g to 100g to 300g and back to 75g, my last one in Florida. A fish retailer on every corner and bio balls, protein skimming and sumps just coming into fashion as I remember. Then life got in the way and several moves and states later, I’m in KY and settled in my last home and to the point I’m into another build, a modest 75g. But now no fish stores to speak of in this area. Tried the big towns of Lexington, Louisville and Cincinnati,Ohio and found one out of ten I’d give my money to. So in my case on line has been the way to go. Haven’t purchased livestock yet so that may change my mind. So far I’ve had a ball putting it together and dreaming of one day soon when fish and corals will be my pets.

 

[Unregistered User]

I

My two cents... I kept fish only tanks in Florida and in the 80s and 90s from 20g to 100g to 300g and back to 75g, my last one in Florida. A fish retailer on every corner and bio balls, protein skimming and sumps just coming into fashion as I remember. Then life got in the way and several moves and states later, I’m in KY and settled in my last home and to the point I’m into another build, a modest 75g. But now no fish stores to speak of in this area. Tried the big towns of Lexington, Louisville and Cincinnati,Ohio and found one out of ten I’d give my money to. So in my case on line has been the way to go. Haven’t purchased livestock yet so that may change my mind. So far I’ve had a ball putting it together and dreaming of one day soon when fish and corals will be my pets.

I am in Southwest Ohio, and have been disappointed in the couple stores I've been to. What's the one that hasn't disappointed?

(Apologize for taking the thread of topic)

 

[stevieduk]

seems like I come on here and there are less and less post and when there are post it’s about getting out. What gives. Is Reefing dead. What’s killing the hobby. I think it’s greed. This hobby is expensive enough but when people start charging $800 for a 1/4” frag that’s when people start going away. Most pieces are common now and have circulated many tanks. So why the need to charge $100 for something common like a setosa or green slimer. With all these mushroom crazes people get crazy with prices. At the end of the day I think greed is killing the hobby. Oh well just my take since there’s nothing else on here to read about might as well stir the pot a bit. Happy Reefing.

if you think you got it bad , you ought to live in England my friend, we get ripped of all the time, and the amount of choice on livestock and equipment we have here is tiny compared to what you have access to in the states. Seems all the firms that are advancing this hobby are in the states and they dont want to sell / ship stuff to England