Old Ways vs New Ways of Reefing

[X-37B]

I remember the live rock days of the early 90's. Marshall island live rock, it glowed at night, lol.
When I setup a tank after some time off around 2014 I used excellent live rock from lfs.
Just drop it in and start reefing.

I then upgraded to a 120. 50/50 was used. The caribsea rock got the uglies for about 1-month, nothing on the live. 1 year later you could not tell the difference. I stated adding coral during that ugly phase.

On my current setup I will use 100% live base rock from TBS.
Dont really need the premium as I will be growing coral not rocks, lol.

You can from zero to full reef in a very short time if you know how to maintain and have a plan.

Here is my old 18" nano cube.
Zero to 10 months for reference.
Many make it harder than it needs to be imo.

 

[KandAReefs]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

I have been keeping a reef for about 20 years now and as a kid my father had a reef and I can say most changes have been for the better no big room full of bio balls for filtration. My first tank I used live rock out of the gulf of Mexico and I did not have the ugly tank syndrome nearly as bad but the hitchhiking stuff while interesting was a pain to remove. I now try to use dry rock get the pieces I need and let them sit in my sump or another reefer sump for about 6 months if I can really helps if you can do it.

 

[X-37B]

I have been keeping a reef for about 20 years now and as a kid my father had a reef and I can say most changes have been for the better no big room full of bio balls for filtration. My first tank I used live rock out of the gulf of Mexico and I did not have the ugly tank syndrome nearly as bad but the hitchhiking stuff while interesting was a pain to remove. I now try to use dry rock get the pieces I need and let them sit in my sump or another reefer sump for about 6 months if I can really helps if you can do it.

Agree! My last setup I had 5 tanks. I would take live rock that was dead when I found it and put it into my sump. 6 months later it was live, I had a light in my frags sump to speed things up.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I start all my tanks with pellet or flake food and MicroBacter7. I never test ammonia or anything. Just give it 2 weeks before adding some fish.

Early on this tank exploded with uglies but after I added my tang gang they cleaned everything up. I dumped in some Algaebarn pods once. I think 2 bottles of the 5280 IIRC. Likely not enough but I had some live rock in there already.

Then it got super ugly for months on end. I blame the sand for this next part. Why? Because all the uglies were in and on the sand only. Very little made it to the rocks. I added a lot more CUC and a sand sifting goby. It cleared up quickly after that. I’m of the opinion that we aren’t using enough CUC these days in a lot of tanks. The whole 1 snail per gallon rule kind of disappeared. It might be overkill but seemed to work better than the newer “rules” of like 1 snail per 10 gallons.

Thank you!

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I started reefing back in the early 80's when under gravel filters and wet/dry filters were the norm.
Towards the middle and the end of the 80's I started seeing rock structures in some tanks and at the 2 stores I had access to.
I don't remember where the rock came from, but it was plentiful.
Move on into the 90's and there seemed like there were many different sources of live rock for multiple locations in the south Pacific.
In the early days of Live Aquaria, they had 5-6 different types of live rock. It wasn't exactly cheap but had great package deals.
Now when you look at the options these days, as far as I can tell there are 2 sources of real ocean rock.
Caribbean and Australian.
Seams to me you have to be fairly well off ( bringing in the big bucks) to afford a large reef tank full of the Australian rock.
That leaves the Caribbean rock.
IMO the shape is terrible. Mostly round boulder type rock.
Back in the day you couldn't give that stuff away.
Now add in the budget minded reefer starting out these days.
Old dead rock can be bought for as little as $1 per lb.
Mined dead rock for $3-$4 per lb.
Caribbean live rock comes in at $6-$9 per lb.
That Australian I see occasionally comes in at about $25 per lb.

I started up a tank 10 years ago with dry store bought mined rock. I hand picked 200lbs out of 3 different stores, used the bottled bacteria.
Even after 2 years I hated the look.
Corals grew, fish thrived, but IMO it just looked not right.
Looked around for good live rock that I liked and couldn't find anything.
I ended up settling for "Real Reef" rock. It's a brand of dry man made rock that's somewhat pre-cycled rock.
Did the bottled bacteria as well on this batch.

Thank you, good stuff.

 

[thecodingart]

Responded to your post on Facebook, mostly the same thing here .

I cycled my first tank in 14 days and added fish back at in the beginning of December/November.

I did NOT use live rock, and couldn’t be happier.

No hitch hikers, no unexpected introductions.

Used Dr Tim’s to kick off bacteria and added sets of pods at kick off.

I’m happy I took my approach and seriously wouldn’t even consider doing it any other way atm.

My tank is extremely stable, and I’ve been performing daily level checks for weeks. I’m at the point where I can stop caring nearly as much and just periodically monitor the situation.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

So, I am a dry rock fan.I do use NSW so that may be the difference, I don’t know. I don’t usually have all “ugly” phase so many do, usually.

This last go around things were different and I can see why.

Short of the long is I tore apart a neglected tank. Had 90% of the rock in a bleach bath. Saw some dry rock for sale locally that was a good deal and went for it. Dude said he broke the tank down and bleached the rock. It was nasty covered in algae, aptasia etc.

I used it, dosed lanthanum and bottomed out PO4. Raised NO3, PO4, and tried all the tricks to beat Dino’s. Crud from dry rock resurfaced. Rock was done for.

I was being lazy and tried to hurry up the process.

All dry rock is not the same, treat it accordingly


Removed rock, bleach, acid, bleach, peroxide bath. Added a UV for first time. Rock is fine this go around.

So, it was a couple things that contributed to the ugly phase. *** dup water chemistry and dirty rock.

Clean rock and good water chemistry would have helped as proven.

With all that I still have vermitid snails and aptasia , and hopefully never see that blue encrusting sponge again.

I am not against using LR, I am against paying for it.

Okay, so using the best possible live rock. Putting in a reef system. Covering that best LR in coralline, and coral skeleton, what happens to it. A calcium carbonate rock? I get the bottom is still “open”.

How many new reefers would have a prolonged “ugly” stage using the best live rock not knowing how to keep a system stable.

Interesting comment about the new reefers! From my experience on R2R, seems like many are trying to figure out balance in their aquariums and getting rid of constant battles with the uglies My humble experience setting up some tanks, the learning curve was much shorter with my first tank using live rock than trying to figure out dosing bacteria, adding pods, fighting uglies, etc.

 

[GARRIGA]

Watched a video today of a large European importer/breeder and this got me thinking. Wet dry rock curing to preserve the beneficial bacteria while allowing time to inspect for rejects such as hitchhikers. Might also allow the gluing of rocks in the process.

Latter better application for LFS type operation as I wouldn’t have the space to accomplish yet doing this for curing within my grasp but at a lower scale.

 

[MrPike]

Seems to me there are some rose colored glasses when remembering the “old days” of reefkeeping. You did not just drop your liverock in and start keeping nice coral. And nice coral back then was Xenia and leathers, and surprise, they grew.

Liverock needed time to cure, unless you had a lot of money and bought cured rock, which btw was most of the time still curing. And curing was egg fart smell in your home while the rock died in your tank. You would diligently monitor ammonia and nitrite, hoping to see nitrite so that it meant you had just a tiny bit of bacteria that could oxidize the toxic soup that was your tank. This could take a month, then your attention switched to nitrite and nitrate and you would hope for nitrates. Basically, you just dumped a bunch of food in your tank all at once and let it sit and stink for a few months, and then tried a few coral.

Plenty of threads on hair algae, caulerpa, diatoms, and bryopsis back in 2000. Only change I personally see is an insane preoccupation with Dino’s, which are likely due to terrible bottled bacteria products and organic carbon causing things to go haywire.

Not saying we have it easy these days with dry rock and a handful of live rubble and endless reef tank-quick products, but it wasn’t peaches and cream back in the day, either.

 

[fish farmer]

Watched a video today of a large European importer/breeder and this got me thinking. Wet dry rock curing to preserve the beneficial bacteria while allowing time to inspect for rejects such as hitchhikers. Might also allow the gluing of rocks in the process.

Latter better application for LFS type operation as I wouldn’t have the space to accomplish yet doing this for curing within my grasp but at a lower scale.

This is what Walt Smith did with his cured Fiji back in the day. Set it up on racks, misted with saltwater for a few weeks, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, etc. would drop off. Bacteria and coralline algae would survive.

 

[jimk60]

Seems to me there are some rose colored glasses when remembering the “old days” of reefkeeping. You did not just drop your liverock in and start keeping nice coral. And nice coral back then was Xenia and leathers, and surprise, they grew.

Liverock needed time to cure, unless you had a lot of money and bought cured rock, which btw was most of the time still curing. And curing was egg fart smell in your home while the rock died in your tank. You would diligently monitor ammonia and nitrite, hoping to see nitrite so that it meant you had just a tiny bit of bacteria that could oxidize the toxic soup that was your tank. This could take a month, then your attention switched to nitrite and nitrate and you would hope for nitrates. Basically, you just dumped a bunch of food in your tank all at once and let it sit and stink for a few months, and then tried a few coral.

Plenty of threads on hair algae, caulerpa, diatoms, and bryopsis back in 2000. Only change I personally see is an insane preoccupation with Dino’s, which are likely due to terrible bottled bacteria products and organic carbon causing things to go haywire.

Not saying we have it easy these days with dry rock and a handful of live rubble and endless reef tank-quick products, but it wasn’t peaches and cream back in the day, either.

Have to agree. I too started in the early 80s. Start with dead coral skeletons an underground filter throw in a shrimp and wait a month. No bottled bacteria back than. We had our problems but never heard of dinos. I too think bottled bacteria is more of a problem than a help.

 

[mfinn]

Seems to me there are some rose colored glasses when remembering the “old days” of reefkeeping. You did not just drop your liverock in and start keeping nice coral. And nice coral back then was Xenia and leathers, and surprise, they grew.

Liverock needed time to cure, unless you had a lot of money and bought cured rock, which btw was most of the time still curing. And curing was egg fart smell in your home while the rock died in your tank. You would diligently monitor ammonia and nitrite, hoping to see nitrite so that it meant you had just a tiny bit of bacteria that could oxidize the toxic soup that was your tank. This could take a month, then your attention switched to nitrite and nitrate and you would hope for nitrates. Basically, you just dumped a bunch of food in your tank all at once and let it sit and stink for a few months, and then tried a few coral.

Plenty of threads on hair algae, caulerpa, diatoms, and bryopsis back in 2000. Only change I personally see is an insane preoccupation with Dino’s, which are likely due to terrible bottled bacteria products and organic carbon causing things to go haywire.

Not saying we have it easy these days with dry rock and a handful of live rubble and endless reef tank-quick products, but it wasn’t peaches and cream back in the day, either.

Not rose colored glasses here.
I do remember several times ordering 150-200 lbs. of rock, then having to cure it by putting it in tubs for a month or two.
It wasn't instant by any means.
But what you got in the end was much better than most of the options today IMO.

 

[bratfink]

I will say the curiosity of finding odd different organisms in your rock was pretty cool using the old way.
My recent tank hasn’t got nearly as many interesting creepy crawlies in it using the new way.
I also don’t remember having to buy macro algae back then, it just grew.

 

[GARRIGA]

This is what Walt Smith did with his cured Fiji back in the day. Set it up on racks, misted with saltwater for a few weeks, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, etc. would drop off. Bacteria and coralline algae would survive.

Interesting. This is the first I’ve seen it yet makes a lot sense. We used to cure in large 100 plus gallon tanks. This method much easier to apply and if pests fall off all the better.

 

[Freenow54]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

I inherited an established tank where the owner believed in dosing only. Huge hair algae issue, and more critters than I knew about. My new tank was done fishless, but there was live rock ( but cleaned used. Yes it took a long time to establish but did not have to add a lot of starter bacteria. Just pure Ammonia. I have seen lots of worms ( both I believe not harmful from research crop up, but just the I believe usual algae growth on the glass. I did however use fine live sand. I could not clean it with a siphon as it got sucked up to easily . I ended up removing it. I have course sand but to date have not added it, and may not. All in all I am pretty happy , but for some reason am hesitant to add coral yet, even though I have an Apogee par meter, and have mapped the tank out. More $$$$ concern than anything even though I have invested $8,000.00 so far

 

[cjtabares]

I remember plenty of people asking about algae and all sorts of other issues that still happen with live rock 15-20 years ago. Ocean rock comes with all sorts of stuff I would rather not have in my tank. This hobby has always been about patience and taking it slow for me. If it takes me a year to not worry about pest that will eat my corals I am ok with that. I will enjoy my fish, and once I get the stability I am looking for I will add coral, which has usually been around the 6 month mark for me with dry rock.

 

[SnowyFox]

I’m in the process of setting up my first saltwater tank right now, and am struggling with the massive information overload related to what type of rock to get for my tank. My LFS has a huge tank of wet live rock available if I want to go that route. I think most of it is really old, and also may contain some rock they have taken in from some of the customers who had to break down their tanks. The tank has a single fish occupant, so there is at least a tiny bit of bioload present in that tank. Some of it has coralline algae on it already too. Feels like a gamble if go that way, but I also really like the idea of having a lot of biodiversity. Really appreciate the discussion here comparing the differences. Definitely helps when “live rock” seems to be such an overloaded term these days that can mean different things depending on who you talk to

 

[exnisstech]

I'm only 8 years into the hobby so far from being an old timer. I did follow old methods on my first tank. I used all live rock harvested off the coast of Puerto Rico. At the time there was a diver selling it on Amazon of all places. It was full of all kinds of life. I've never really been scared of hitchhikers.
I wanted to set up a new tank using dry rock and barebottom. I wanted to try using bottled bacteria to cycle because I never had and I like to experiment a little bit, thats part of the fun having multiple tanks. I did cheat and put a tray of rubble in the sump from my other tank which I'm sure helped things along. Other than that I started with fritz turbo 900 and microbactor 7. I started adding coral after 1 week. First fish was added after 2 weeks. I dosed the MB7 daily for maybe six months before switching to zeobak I also started using bacto balance early on but can't remember the exact date. I'm going mostly acro with stags toward top. I really didn't have much of an ugly stage. A little cyano that I just kept blowing off and eventually it went away. There is a layer of some type of green algae all over the rocks but it's only visible under all white light so I don't worry about it as it doesn't seem to keep the coral from encrusting. I do not have that type of algae in my other tanks. Also the dark purple coralline algae on the rocks and bottom I do not have in my other tanks. Those only have the light purple stuff. Not sure why that is. I've been pretty happy with it and it's probably my cleanest tank out of the 3 I have. By cleanest I mean lack nuisance algae like gha bubble etc. Currently I dose 0.3ml bacto balance daily and 3 drops of zeobak twice a week and plan to continue that program for now. I dose 2 part also. I have an awful lot of flow in this tank compared to the others and I don't know if that has helped keep some uglies at bay. This is today day 325 after filling. I'm not getting the growth that @X-37B Reefer got in his (yes I'm jealous ) but the frags are encrusting nicely and I haven't had a lot of deaths so I'm calling it a win for now.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

My quick bio: 30+ years of designing, installing, managing reef tanks ‘professionally’. Degree in biology. Minored in ecology. Teach biology and enviro sci in HS. I’ve worked on hundreds of reef tanks from 5gal to 3500gal. I’ve at least messed with just about every piece of equipment and new method that has come out over the last 30 years.

I would never set up a system with anything less than what I view as the fullest available ecological suite. That means, everything goes in. I don’t care what it is. Parasites, pests, whatever kind of algae, etc. I don’t care if it gets in. If anything starts to become an issue, I will deal with it.

My preference when setting up a new system would be to go 100% maricultured rock like Tampa Bay rock. That’s not always realistic with some of the 300g and up tanks that have more elaborate aquascapes. I will typically use seasoned rock for a base (I just don’t like dry rock…but if enough maricultured goes in, then I don’t care as much).

I also still order the uncured Fiji rock, and will just dump it in as is. Mud, junk, and all the goodies.

My standard boilerplate disclaimer: I do not advise others do what I do. It’s others’ investment, not mine, and I don’t want to be responsible for something going sideways for somebody who might not see or catch things the way I do. But what I am saying is that a more ecological method can easily be done, and we can be very successful if it is done with intentional management and not neglectfully.

 

[Spare time]

Thank you for the feedback! What happened with ocean rock that would prevent you from wanting to use it?

I just don't like having to deal with all the pests that can come along.