Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

[Brew12]

Can't seem to edit, but he's dead Jim. Still interested to see what the best course of action would have been (no CP available).

Unless it was a massive fluke infestation I would have held off on the prazi until I had finished the copper treatment. I would consider doing a FW dip once the fish looked like it had recovered from the Velvet while in copper. My goal would be to minimize stress while focusing on the Velvet since that is the much more lethal issue.
If the fluke infestation was severe I would run Prazi with the copper but would run an extra airstone or two.

 

[drawman]

Can't seem to edit, but he's dead Jim. Still interested to see what the best course of action would have been (no CP available).

Personally I would treat for Velvet first as it is the most virulent but maybe others can comment. You could always treat in Copper for 10 days and transfer to a completely clean, new QT tank that is over 10 feet away (although keep in mind this can be risky with contamination). Then after the 10 days treat for flukes. Certainly a FW dip like you did before this would be helpful followed by an acriflavine bath.

 

[Brad Vaughn]

Id treat the Velvet first and then the flukes later.

 

[s2nhle]

Wow, sorry to hear that. interesting topic. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Humblefish]

I would have done one of two things:

1. Treat for velvet using copper or CP, and then in 10-14 days transfer to another QT (at least 10 feet away). Treat for flukes (using Prazipro) in there.
2. If I only had 1 QT to work with, I would use API General Cure in conjunction with copper/CP. GC contains powder praziquantel which is safer to combine with other meds than liquid Prazipro.

 

[Jennie]

Yes, this is what I use when I have a fish with velvet to experiment on.

Quick question, what is the formula for the Reef Rally dip? Also, if it is ick Rally isn’t supposed to help so then what? Thanks

 

[FLG]

Hey Reefers, I have recently setup a QT (40g long) treating fish for Ich or velvet (not exactly sure which but leaning toward velvet). Dosing QT with Cupramine.
20 drops to 10.5g water is the ratio so I added 32 drops.
48 hours later I added the same again.
48hrs after that I’m stuck and don’t know what to do.
Water change? If so, how many gallons?
Dose meds again?
Do nothing? For how long?
Feeding little heavier (not excessive) than normal soaking in garlic
Thanks

 

[iemsparticus]

Hey Reefers, I have recently setup a QT (40g long) treating fish for Ich or velvet (not exactly sure which but leaning toward velvet). Dosing QT with Cupramine.
20 drops to 10.5g water is the ratio so I added 32 drops.
48 hours later I added the same again.
48hrs after that I’m stuck and don’t know what to do.
Water change? If so, how many gallons?
Dose meds again?
Do nothing? For how long?
Feeding little heavier (not excessive) than normal soaking in garlic
Thanks

Your fish need to be in therapeutic levels of copper for 1 month. If you need to do a water change (due to ammonia levels), you need to add the appropriate amount of copper back in to maintain therapeutic levels.

 

[Maritimer]

Hey Reefers, I have recently setup a QT (40g long) treating fish for Ich or velvet (not exactly sure which but leaning toward velvet). Dosing QT with Cupramine.
20 drops to 10.5g water is the ratio so I added 32 drops.
48 hours later I added the same again.
48hrs after that I’m stuck and don’t know what to do.
Water change? If so, how many gallons?
Dose meds again?
Do nothing? For how long?
Feeding little heavier (not excessive) than normal soaking in garlic
Thanks

Do you have a test kit for ionic copper? (Seachem's kit works well for this ... ) You should be testing, and ideally daily, to get a read on exactly how much copper is in your system. Knowing how much copper is actually in your water should get you un-stuck.

As Iemsparticus noted, if you're going to keep the fish in the same tank for the duration of treatment, maintain therapeutic levels of copper for 30 days. When you're water-changing, be sure to add replacement copper to the replacement water _before_ you add the water to the tank - this will prevent copper levels from dropping in the tank during treatment.

~Bruce

 

[Sonam]

This article, and Humblefish, have been extremely informative. Our system lost nearly all our fish to velvet. Knowing the behavioral symptoms would have helped us act sooner, and we will definitely keep Ruby Reef Rally on hand from now on.

One recommendation from one of our LFS was to install a UV Sterilizer in our main display tank. He said it would not eliminate the problem, nor would it absolutely prevent a future problem, but it would reduce the severity and intensity of an outbreak if one occurred and give fish with healthier immune systems a better chance at warding off the parasites.

We've poured a ton of money into the situation already, and this would be a large expenditure, but it does feel like something to plan on. Currently our 125 gallon main display is fishless and will remain so for another 75 days. That would eliminate the current parasites. We plan on quarantining fish in the future, but quarantining all corals and inverts is not something we can practically accomplish.

Our previous 90 gallon system ran for 5 years without any quarantining of fish (we were careful with new additions) and we did have a UV sterilizer on that system. I have no proof that the sterilizer made the difference, but after going through this we are motivated to prevent another disaster of this magnitude.

Thank you so much for the guidance.

 

[DanielJameS]

@Humblefish would be so appreciative of your guidance. I acquired a beautiful swallowtail angel from a local store yesterday (Black Friday sale.) interestingly enough under their lighting (or maybe sans stress before capture) I noticed no signs of velvet (also light colored fish made it difficult) Got home, put the fish into QT, let it settle for 3-4 hours. Needless to say, not planning to buy a fish with an already underway velvet infestation, i didn’t have the QT pre-dosed. When I came back to observe under blue/purple lighting a few hours later I see the fish is COVERED in velvet. I don’t know if the stress of moving triggered it or it was there the whole time. Amazing that I couldn’t notice under their warmer white fluorescent lighting, or maybe it hadn’t broken out yet, but under LED’s the fins/tail were obvious. This is really a pretty fish, and luckily I didn’t pay much for it but I know you’ve said when a fish is covered prognosis is bleak. Here’s where I’m at so far:

Last night:
-Pulled the fish, did a 5min FW dip
- Ran Rally in QT for about 1.5 hours (didn’t have time to set up a separate bath tank)
- added a bag of carbon overnight
This Morning:
50% WC and 80mg CP in

The powdered sugar coat looks worse this morning. Could that be from the FW dip? Is there anything else I can do to provide more relief of what’s on the fish to give it a fighting chance? More FW dips? I don’t want to over stress it. Doing what I can and would appreciate any additional tips. I’ve attached a few pictures of the severity. Thanks!
Dan

 

[Maritimer]

Sounds like you're on the right track . . . Velvet (and ich) seem to stand out a lot more under blue LEDs than under white lighting.

What size is your QT?

The velvet trophonts that are on the fish have raised little sores / bumps which are partly the fish's response to the parasite. At this point, she'll probably have to deal with the ones already on her body, as copper and CP only affect the free-swimming stages of the parasite's lifecycle. As these ones drop away, importantly, new ones will be prevented from reaching her.

~Bruce

 

[DanielJameS]

It’s a 20G long. I’m happy to report that I just got back from the store to get some live brine to coheres her to eat and to my surprise she was out and about swimming around and ate just about all the brine I put in there. Looks much better as of now, but I’ll continue to monitor and see how it goes. Maybe it’s possible I caught it right in the knick If time but we’ll see.

 

[DanielJameS]

I should have also mentioned that when I did the FW dip I did notice some white floaties, not many, and pretty small but I wouldn’t be surprised if this fish had flukes too, not to mention the salinity of the bag was nearly 1.029

Am I ok to treat with general cure? Or should i wait the whole length of CP to do a prazi treatment? I only have prazi pro and I know I can’t mix that but I also know based on the amount of lil buggers on this fish if I can turn the corner I’m going to need to start kanaplex too.

 

[Maritimer]

It's rarely the best idea to mix meds, but can be done. General Cure does contain Praziquantel, but doesn't contain the ... Oxybispropanol? I think? that keeps Prazi-Pro's Praziquantel dissolved. I know that in some cases, that's what makes Prazi-Pro a poor mix-with-others choice, but I'm fuzzy on the details.

There's a pretty comprehensive guide to mixing meds here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medication-compatibility-guide.313491/#post-3862527

~Bruce

 

[DanielJameS]

It's rarely the best idea to mix meds, but can be done. General Cure does contain Praziquantel, but doesn't contain the ... Oxybispropanol? I think? that keeps Prazi-Pro's Praziquantel dissolved. I know that in some cases, that's what makes Prazi-Pro a poor mix-with-others choice, but I'm fuzzy on the details.

There's a pretty comprehensive guide to mixing meds here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medication-compatibility-guide.313491/#post-3862527

~Bruce

Yeah that’s why I asked, I made the mistake of mixing CP and prazi once it was no bueno [emoji15]

Thanks for the link I knew I saw that somewhere but couldn’t find my way back to it [emoji1360]

 

[iemsparticus]

I have successfully mixed Prazi Pro with Cupramine on several occasions, but I’ve never been able to get my hands on CP.

 

[veloboy]

Can anyone comment on the usage of hypo (1.009) and copper (cupramine) together? I thought I was dealing with ich on a powder brown and yellow tang but after further investigation I believe I am dealing with velvet. Salinity in my QT is currently 1.009, I'm afraid by the time I get the salinity up to 1.025 so that I can dose copper the fish will be dead.

In the future, I will be using copper only for treatment.

 

[Brew12]

Can anyone comment on the usage of hypo (1.009) and copper (cupramine) together? I thought I was dealing with ich on a powder brown and yellow tang but after further investigation I believe I am dealing with velvet. Salinity in my QT is currently 1.009, I'm afraid by the time I get the salinity up to 1.025 so that I can dose copper the fish will be dead.

In the future, I will be using copper only for treatment.

I'm sorry you are in this position. I think you are right, raising salinity safely will take too long.

I was able to find this, so it looks like your best bet is to get copper levels to 0.25ppm while in hypo.
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/2385-cupramine-and-salinity

 

[jasonrusso]

I should have also mentioned that when I did the FW dip I did notice some white floaties, not many, and pretty small but I wouldn’t be surprised if this fish had flukes too, not to mention the salinity of the bag was nearly 1.029

Am I ok to treat with general cure? Or should i wait the whole length of CP to do a prazi treatment? I only have prazi pro and I know I can’t mix that but I also know based on the amount of lil buggers on this fish if I can turn the corner I’m going to need to start kanaplex too.

I have used GC and CP concurrently for the last 4 fish I have received. All made it through fine.

How is he looking today? Usually the CP drops the active velvet pretty quick (I know it isn't supposed to, but there have been several reports).

Keep an eye out for bacterial infections. The velvet falls off and leaves open wounds on the fish. My puffer got a cloudy eye which cleared up quickly with euthromycin