Want to buy this fish, but should I?

[alanbetiger]

@Humblefish have you ever used Baytril/Enrofloxacin to broaden antibiotic spectrum? Seriously just asking, not trying to step on anyone's toes. I couldn't find much about it on here. I've read about it on www.vin.com that vets have used it as a once a day bath for 5 hours at 2.5mg/L. I know @cmcoker can get a hold of that.

 

[cmcoker]

@Humblefish have you ever used Baytril/Enrofloxacin to broaden antibiotic spectrum? Seriously just asking, not trying to step on anyone's toes. I couldn't find much about it on here. I've read about it on www.vin.com that vets have used it as a once a day bath for 5 hours at 2.5mg/L. I know @cmcoker can get a hold of that.

Thanks Alan, yep I could definitely get that..

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish have you ever used Baytril/Enrofloxacin to broaden antibiotic spectrum? Seriously just asking, not trying to step on anyone's toes. I couldn't find much about it on here. I've read about it on www.vin.com that vets have used it as a once a day bath for 5 hours at 2.5mg/L. I know @cmcoker can get a hold of that.

I've used it on nems (mags/gigs with infection) in lieu of Cipro, and my mentor (alprazo) has used it as an intramuscular injection on sharks. I've read it provides good coverage for vibrio in animals. I think the Achilles' heel for dosing this medication into SW is it isn't recommended in hard or alkaline water due to uptake problems. But I'll have to do some research to confirm that is true.

 

[alanbetiger]

Just was a thought since the injectable would be super easy to dose instead crushing/dissolving Cipro. I can't find anything on VIN about water conditions. But as you already know there certainly isn't a ton of info out there. Though it is physically possible to give it as IM injection even in smaller fish the stress alone probably would kill the little wrasse. Thanks for the info

Here's the quote from The Western Veterinary Conference in 2002.

Enrofloxacin (Baytril®). A quinolone compound that appears to be safe and effective in fishes. May be used IM, IC and PO at a dose of 5–10 mg/kg/ Q 48 hours for 7–21 days. May be diluted with sterile saline since the concentrated form (2.27%) may be irritating. May also be used as a bath at a concentration of 2.5 mg/L for 5 hours Q 24 hours.

 

[Humblefish]

@alanbetiger It's a good suggestion and would be worthy of experimentation if I can find more info about dosing it in SW. Because quite frankly, the antibiotics I'm currently recommending just aren't getting the job done. They appear to be too slow acting to save fish from serious infections. I'm always looking for a better way.

 

[Brew12]

Interesting.... looking for more studies. This one was on cuttlefish.
http://files.books.elebda3.net/download-pdf-ebooks.org-kupd-1846.PDF

Key part of the studies findings
"A bath consisting of 2.5 mg/L for 5 h once to twice daily, would be sufficient for treating highly susceptible organisms, however may not be effective for more resistant organisms. Oral administration of enrofloxacin, 10 mg/ kg p.o., in live shrimp, produced high hemolymph concentrations and may be an effective method of administration, but was evaluated in only two animals."

 

[cmcoker]

Just was a thought since the injectable would be super easy to dose instead crushing/dissolving Cipro. I can't find anything on VIN about water conditions. But as you already know there certainly isn't a ton of info out there. Though it is physically possible to give it as IM injection even in smaller fish the stress alone probably would kill the little wrasse. Thanks for the info

Here's the quote from The Western Veterinary Conference in 2002.

Enrofloxacin (Baytril[emoji768]). A quinolone compound that appears to be safe and effective in fishes. May be used IM, IC and PO at a dose of 5–10 mg/kg/ Q 48 hours for 7–21 days. May be diluted with sterile saline since the concentrated form (2.27%) may be irritating. May also be used as a bath at a concentration of 2.5 mg/L for 5 hours Q 24 hours.

Yeah I was thinking when we use it IV in small animal that it is supposed to be give in 0.9%NaCl so I would think it would stay in solution in saltwater.

Think I'll grab a couple mls... Do you think dosing the QT tank and after 5 hours doing a 25%water change and run carbon? Did it give a recommended duration or treatment? 7-10 days?

Did math and 20g needs almost 8mls of Baytril SA, any reason I couldn't use the 100mg/ml?

 

[melypr1985]

@melypr1985 when will you be around the store?

Sorry sugar. I was only up there for a couple hours since it's my day off. I'll be there tomorrow though. If you go up there today talk to Tom. Tell him i sent you for some rally out of our store use bottle. He'll take care of you.

 

[alanbetiger]

Yeah I was thinking when we use it IV in small animal that it is supposed to be give in 0.9%NaCl so I would think it would stay in solution in saltwater.

Think I'll grab a couple mls... Do you think dosing the QT tank and after 5 hours doing a 25%water change and run carbon? Did it give a recommended duration or treatment? 7-10 days?

Did math and 20g needs almost 8mls of Baytril SA, any reason I couldn't use the 100mg/ml?

You've got all the info I have on it. Treatment length would be the same 7-21 days regardless of administration. I don't have a clue about whether or not to put it in the QT tank or only use it as a bath. You know me I'd probably do it in the QT tank and hope for the best. I suspect it's not recommend because of irritation of gills/skin. I do know though the real difference from SA and LA is mostly dilution so you get less necrotic skin lesions when injecting into dogs/cats so the 100mg/mL should be fine (and cheaper for you).

 

[alanbetiger]

@Humblefish if you're ever in the DFW area, and want to try it more but you can't get it prescribed at a local vet I can help you out

 

[cmcoker]

You've got all the info I have on it. Treatment length would be the same 7-21 days regardless of administration. I don't have a clue about whether or not to put it in the QT tank or only use it as a bath. You know me I'd probably do it in the QT tank and hope for the best. I suspect it's not recommend because of irritation of gills/skin. I do know though the real difference from SA and LA is mostly dilution so you get less necrotic skin lesions when injecting into dogs/cats so the 100mg/mL should be fine (and cheaper for you).

Yeah I was just reading.. DVM 360 has the notes I think similar to the proceeding you mentioned. Now I'm in the merck veterinary manual, they say seven days for an enrofloxacin bath treatment and it may be chelated by hard water, but not as strong a warning as they give for oxytetracycline.
I scooped a little saltwater from the display and added a few drops of Baytril LA, I could not see any precipitation at least so...
Think I am going to do a 5 hour Baytril bath in a 5 gallon bucket with heater and air stone daily (Nancy is going to love this, haha) for 7 days.
Gonna scrub down the quarantine today during the bath, put a new sponge that's been soaking from the display to try and knock down anything brewing in quarantine...
And see what happens...

Alan, do you see any reason to continue the combo I am using now, just thinking if it's resistant am I just going to be taxing the fish's system for nothing with the combo. I mean if we switch antibiotics at work, we just switch usually, not add on, right?

I was contemplating if it would be feasible to culture it on my drive to work this morning.. Lol

@melypr1985, thanks! I think I'm gonna give Enrofloxacin a try and see if it helps. I'd like to know if it was the Enrofloxacin or not, so will wait to do the acriflavine bath.
If I am seeing it get worse, I will definitely PM you if that's OK.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish if you're ever in the DFW area, and want to try it more but you can't get it prescribed at a local vet I can help you out

I'm currently in Austin (so not too far away); but in no position to QT/experiment at the moment.

 

[alanbetiger]

Make sure you tell Nancy it was someone else's idea! I still fear her wrath.
You're right, if we culture it and it it's resistant to something we swap everything over. If it's resistant, it's resistant. You should be able to culture it with the normal IDEXX stuff. I'd do Aerobic and Anerobic just encase. I don't know though. Get Dees to say it's her fish and they might comp it

 

[cmcoker]

Make sure you tell Nancy it was someone else's idea! I still fear her wrath.
You're right, if we culture it and it it's resistant to something we swap everything over. If it's resistant, it's resistant. You should be able to culture it with the normal IDEXX stuff. I'd do Aerobic and Anerobic just encase. I don't know though. Get Dees to say it's her fish and they might comp it

Ha! I'm telling her it was your idea!

The dosing I've read in merck and the DVM 360 article was 2.5-5mg/L.. Guess I will start with the lowest and see how he tolerates it. Got his bath warming right now...

If he doesn't survive, I'm definitely gonna culture and see what it was. Not sure I want to put him through handling to get a swab. Don't wanna make his skin more susceptible screwing around with touching him. Will see how this goes and maybe bring a swab home to have on hand...

 

[mmw64]

following. Best of luck.

 

[cmcoker]

Survived first bath last night, yay! He hid a little but then ate shortly after going back into the quarantine tank.

It stresses me out to move him all the time but I think I will keep removing him for each bath.

My 2.5g water jug has a 10L marking so I used that to mark 10L on my 5g bucket and will use that level for each bath.
Figured I'd leave a little room for volume error, so am dosing Enrofloxacin at 3mg/L. This will use less saltwater than dosing the tank and use significantly less Enrofloxacin.

Here's some pics from today:

Will be starting bath #2 in an hour or so.

 

[Humblefish]

Following; hope this works for you. It could open the door for others (including myself) to begin experimenting with this drug. But not on myself or anything like that...

 

[cmcoker]

Today

3/20

Continuing baths, he is tolerating them well so far.
He has mysis hanging out of his mouth in the image above from today, that's not anything wrong with his lip.

Nom, nom

 

[cmcoker]

Happy to report it appears the horizontal tears on his tail appears to have some regrowth. It's translucent right now and doesn't pick up in pictures but the torn sections appear to be joined again. His dorsal filaments are also healing, he has one that is at least 1/2 cm long now where they were gone before.
I will be continuing the baths until he is completely healed.

 

[cmcoker]

Continuing to heal. He is more stressed when being moved the past 2 baths. @alanbetiger how long do you think I should continue baths? 7-21 days is a bit wide range.. Until completely healed, or ?