Alk roller coaster

[LegoZ81]

I am really trying to nuke my 240g:
Date Parameter Value (dkH) Note
02/27/10 #### PM Alkalinity 11.5 Salfiert
03/01/10 #### PM Alkalinity 10.4 Salfiert *1
03/06/10 06:41 PM Alkalinity 8.512 LaMotte *2
03/08/10 09:39 PM Alkalinity 10.752 LaMotte *3

Can't get my drip rate right to save my own butt...

*1 raised drip rate slightly to try to slow decline.
*2 raised drip rate slightly to try to slow decline and hold/raise to 9dkh.
*3 slowed drip rate slightly in hopes to curb further swing up...


BLARG :sad: :cry:

 

[wicked demon]

2 words---super buffer.

 

[RBursek]

No Buffers, JUst stop dripping and dose manually, it is a real pain to keep a constant drip rate as the container empties, and double check your test kits.

 

[LegoZ81]

sorry was not clear I am running a CaRX

 

[LegoZ81]

03/09/10 09:30 PM Alkalinity 10.976 LaMotte *2
03/10/10 09:04 PM Alkalinity 9.856 LaMotte *1
*1 raised drip rate slightly to try to slow decline.
*2 slowed drip rate slightly in hopes to curb further swing up...

 

[kingfisherfleshy]

I am struggling with alk too. I wish there was a cheap solution for a college kid. Mine goes down to about 4 DKH and up to 7-9...but it comes back down fast. Corals are growing like crazy though, so I dont know why I am complaining.

 

[lazyreefer]

Well I'm not sure how anyone can maintain Alk levels at a certain number when all tests give different results. I can see using the same test to maintain a certain level, but how to know if that level is "correct" seems to be a shot in the dark.

For example, I'm lazy so I see no need to split hairs over Alk levels.....that is until I started "working out" by dosing 2-part. I'm using the ol' API test 'cause its cheap and simple. When the addition of regent drops make the liquid turn from blue to yellow, bam....there's your alk level. Of course its not very accurate given that shades of green come into the equation and exactly how yellow is yellow....is my dkh 8 or 11....hmmmmm.

I pick up Salifert at my LFS for 20 bucks. (cough,cough) It deviates +/- .3 and comes with a 7.1 dkh calibration fluid so I'm gonna get accurate results right. The calibration fluid tests at 7.4 so that's within "specs" but my tank water tests in at 7.7 when my API results have consistantly tested at 10 on the blue to yellow scale.

I mention this because of your differing numbers using LaMotte/Salifert test kits.

The wierd thing is that since I started dosing about a month ago I have lost a couple of zoanthid colonies to melting. Not sure if there is a relation but if I'm adding Alk based upon a flawed test and some corals may be suffering because of it.....I got to wonder why I'm dosing in the first place.

Here's another thread along these lines.....

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/f295/thank-you-salifert-almost-ruining-my-38672.html

 

[RBursek]

LazyReefer,
do not get on a band wagon about Salifert unless you can document everything. I use API Alk and Ca test kits and I find them very accurate, against known test solutions. I find that holding the Alk test against a white base with the light coming down through it helps, I also learned that just about it has changed from baby poop greenish yellow to wait about 30 seconds before the next drop, I found that true also on the Ca test just before I think it will turn from lavender to the bluish purple finite. If they are not there after that just add 1 more drop swirl and wait another 30 seconds and I find the end color is there.
Lazy,
what salt do you use? mix some to these standards and check your test on the main 3 againts this test result of salts I am attaching here, and or take some of your water to the LFS and have them test it. Do you test your WC water for the main 3 before you add it? And adjust it if needed to your tank params to match? Or if the new water is low in one or more of them do you adjust the new water to what you want? If not you are takeing out what you have dosed/raised in your tank and now just lowered it by the new water! Until you have a scietific research and documentation EDITED!
Synthetic Salt Mixes - Reef Central Online Community

 

[RBursek]

1 drop in Alk DKH uses 7ppm Ca

 

[lazyreefer]

Wow, I've been noticing you're an excitable fellow Bursek, maybe you need to tone down your rhetoric....this ain't Reef Central ya know.

First of all, I'm not on any sort of bandwagon against Salifert, I'm on a bandwagon with many others who are frustrated by different test results and the inability for apparently any of them to be trusted 100%. I use Salifert and like their products, I just bought their Alk test.....I have their Mag, Ca, Nitrates, and I've used some other products of theirs.

You've answered to my other thread about saltwater parameters so you should know I have been testing my makeup water 24 hours after mixing and again 5-6 days later, and again like others have seen drop in numbers forcing me to dose fresh saltwater prior to doing a WC just to match the current parameters in my tank which are less than the numbers advertised on Reef Crystals salt.

 

[RBursek]

Lazy,
sorry, I guess I get fustrated if it seems some one is not listening, OR am not hearing just what they are saying!!!
The usual science answer..."it depends", but the beauty of a balanced two part additive is that calcium should follow along OK without frequent measurement if you are maintaining alkalinity. It sounds good to measure frequently, but history has shown that people are more prone to cause problems by constantly jiggering doses based on potentially fallible measurements, than by sticking with an appropriate dose for a long period without measurement.

If calcium is being propped up by a salt mix with excessive calcium, then you may never need calcium at all, or need less.

But if you start at 450 ppm calcium and 11 dKH, and let corals do their thing to drop the alkalinity to 8 dKH, where you'd certainly need to dose (if your target was 11 dKH), the calcium will only drop to 430 ppm, which you might figure needs no dosing, or might not even be detected with the poor precision and noise in most calcium test kits.

A 1 dKH drop in alkalinity will not normally be accompanied by ANY detectable drop in calcium, since 7 ppm will go unnoticed by any kit.

BUT, if you allow that to happen over and over, calcium will fall, and once it has fallen from, say 450 to 400 pm and you decide you need to dose, then you are dosing a large amount. Much more than you’d ordinarily think to dose daily. In fact, unless a water change is driving it up, you’ll probably have to add back all the "equal” amounts that you skipped dosing when it seemed to not be falling.

Make sense?

This has more:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com



__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
Club 65535

 

[RBursek]

Lazy.
I am very exact, anal retentive, and to get to a problem solving situation, you have to eleminate all the variables, get to the basic again, get a standard and then start in an order of additions one at a time, test, see how it is afecting other items, adjust, and add the next item ect, BUT it takes time consistincy, testing, trust in your test kits, given example, API gives you a vile witha 5ml mark on there Alk and Ca kit, and a sarynge, there in about 1ml difference from the 5ml mark on the vile compared to using the 5ml mark on the syringe. I have read post/threads that say use the mark on the vile, what ever be consistent, and i have to email API on this. The point is I used the 5ml on the syringe, and it was over the 5ml mark on the vile for years, but it gave me 1dkh higher Alk then if I use the mark on the vile, but consistency is the point!!!

 

[RBursek]

Lazy,
your new WC salt mix with RC at what SG and how are you measuring that SG? You might need to calibrate what you use or get a second opion on a sample at the LFS or SW club if you have one.

 

[lazyreefer]

No problem Bob, I appreciate your input and wealth of knowledge/experience.

I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I'll probably respond to your points in the thread I started about fresh SW makeup, and probably somewhere in the 2 part dosing thread. I will say that I understand your point about a balanced 2 part and I'm monitoring my Alk.

 

[RBursek]

Lazy.
Synthetic Salt Mixes - Reef Central Online Community

 

[RBursek]

Lazy,
I am going through a simular thing, I will try and post a PM to Boomer her that will explain what I am triing to do and not being a chemist but just very analiticle need others advice. I do appreciate your honesty and I will try and be less abrasive!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBursek
Boomer,
I was doing 30g/25% biweekly, then went to every 4 weeks. Then after reading Randy's daily change I decided to go to 3qts a day of the new RC at 1.025SG and I also dose 4qts of max out Kalk for MU a day. With the Kalk dose I loose 20ppm Ca a week, and drop about 2dkh a week. Can I add his 2 part A&B to the already RC mixed WC water to raise the Ca and Alk of it, to keep from adding any thing but the Kalk, with out a precip in the 5 gal bucket of the WC water that I would add the A&B to? Mg would be addressed as needed seperatly.
TIA,
Bob

Addding it may be very iffy and a non-no. You need to know how much that A & B, you want to add to it, is going to change the Alk and Ca++ in that RC batch.

Why ? As the RC is rather high in Alk and Ca++, i.e,

490 Ca++ 13 Alk dKH

Meaning, you are going to see a big a snow storm in the bucket from CaCO3 precip and more so if the pH is above low 8's. And fresh mix of RC has high pH. I think you will be making limestone in the bucket. Me, I like to prove that I'm right or wrong. So, I would do it and see what happens, it is only 5 gals

 

[kingfisherfleshy]

I am so confused! Bursek...do you have any numbers to show what happens with your DIY alk and ph recipes? Ive just got to try that at this point...

ps all the best aquarists come from wisconsin. my sister used to be a guidance counselor in germantown...but is now in the city of milwuakee.

 

[RBursek]

KingFisher,
First Randy's DIY Alk, Mg and Ca recipices are great and time proven!!!You can use them to dose the tank as needed, MU water if low in one of those areas, but within limits of not causing a precipitation of any of these chemicals. Which I am not a chemist so you have to read the links I gave you. In my last post I gave what Boomer told me and I may have been pushing the amounts the water could hold without the combos preciping/going out of solution and may not redisolve when added to a larger amount of water. Always interested in an an adractive, intelegende sister!

 

[lowbudget]

to get a good reading on ca and alk you have to get your mg up to at least 1300. what is your mg reading

 

[lazyreefer]

Kingfish, I can't think of a cheaper way to maintain Alk levels than Kalkwasser....a.k.a saturated limewater. I think for around 5 bucks you can get Mrs Wages "Pickling Lime" at a grocery store.

1 teaspoon per gallon of water, some say 2 teaspoons but it really doesn't matter as the gallon will absorb as much as it can while the rest precipitates out, dump in 3 teaspoons if you like.

Its how you deliver the limewater that can get expensive. A cheap way is to get yourself a gallon jug and make up a drip line with air tubing and a dollar valve. If you know how much your tank evaporates everyday, then you can replace that loss with limewater, You need to "drip" it because limewater is over 12 in PH and if you dumped it all in at once you could give your tank a not so healthy PH burn.

Limewater is not your best option to raise Alk levels however because of the PH issues. To raise it you can use either straight up baking soda or "baked" baking soda. One is basically more concentrated and raises PH. (not as high as limewater however) Then maintain the levels with a limewater drip.

There are products you can buy that "buffer" your PH say to 8.3 and they also happen to raise your Alk by 1.4 dkh I think it is. Rumor has it they are nothing more than "baked" baking soda.

Not knowing what you have at your disposal, ATO, pump(s), tank size, testing kits, LFS/fellow hobbyists, etc......there are other options for maintaining parameters. Water changes are one and going with the flow which seems to be what you have been doing....a.k.a "don't worry, be happy" approach seems to work just fine for lots of folks. Chasing numbers takes alot of work and sometimes alot of money.