Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

taricha · Jun 25, 2016

reeferfoxx said:
probiotic lactobacillus, alongside the antibiotic metronidazole, appeared to increase metronidazole's effectiveness.

Don't ask where I got that info. I rather not share it. Looking more into it.

"Increase MTZ's effectiveness" at what specifically? Inhibiting the things it targets? Or at overall disappearance of target organisms from system?
More hints, pls.

Also, ran across paper looking at MTZ toxicity on a few aquatic species.
Good news, they dosed massive amounts (30x the amount recommended here) and couldn't kill copepods.
Which means at least one important class of dino grazers is unaffected by the drug.

reeferfoxx · Jun 25, 2016

I'll have to tap out on this one. @twilliard might be able to help more. I'm not very familiar with probiotics and it's possible roll in reef tanks. Especially lactobacillus. The more conventional method of mixing the lactobacillus and metronidazole has absolutely nothing to do with marine biology. I don't want to attempt it either, as I would feel guilty. I am not 100% sure if probiotic lactobacillus increase effectiveness or reduces possible side-effects. The dose a human would take is going to be different as well. However, probiotics is worth looking in to. IMO

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

stefdvm said:
So... sudden appearance of nasty slimy stuff in my aquarium; took some to work today and looked at it under the scope -- this is what I found (thousands upon thousands of them...)
40x mag

100x mag

400x mag

Lights out all day today, and the slime seems to have receded somewhat. Does this seem to be dino? From what I have gleaned from this post, it seems to be the more difficult kind to eradicate?

Indeed dinoflagellates
You can join us in this venture!

reeferfoxx said:
I might have missed this question..; How long is metro active?

This is unknown as I believe it may depend on the biodiversity in individual tanks.
Now where is our metro test kit!

tampasnooker · Jun 25, 2016

twilliard said:
That is an interesting dinoflagellate
I see it too is highly toxic!

The husband is unaffected; the wife gets highly nauseous from it; and I got dizzy with loss of motor skills while siphoning it out. Handwriting in my notes looks like a drunk's.

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

tampasnooker said:
The husband is unaffected; the wife gets highly nauseous from it; and I got dizzy with loss of motor skills while siphoning it out. Handwriting in my notes looks like a drunk's.

Yes I can understand how it may harm us.
I was playing around with the species I have and they got under my fingernails and talk about an irritating burning sensation.
I have not done that again

StrangeDejavu · Jun 25, 2016

taricha said:
Also, ran across paper looking at MTZ toxicity on a few aquatic species.
Good news, they dosed massive amounts (30x the amount recommended here) and couldn't kill copepods.
Which means at least one important class of dino grazers is unaffected by the drug.

Thanks for sharing that, collateral damage was one of my biggest concerns vs pods, ciliates, etc. This method is looking more and more promising by the day.

reefer1 · Jun 25, 2016

Great thread. Thanks twillard and cowboy.
Questions -
1) What's the next step after 3 days of doing?
By the way, I have been dosing at the early evening (end of the light cycle.)
I turned off rowaphos, removed carbon, and stopped vodka dosing at the start of the dosing.
All I have running is the skimmer and filter sock.
The lights have remain on the same schedule.
2) When can the rowaphos be turned on?
3) When can the carbon be added back in?
4) When can vodka dosing re-start?
Thanks!

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

Still in the beginning stages of putting this together.
What I did after day 4 is I just took my trusty turkey baster and blew them around into the water column for the mechanical filtration to pick up.
All equipment should run as normal besides carbon.
I added a small amount of carbon at day 10 and removed at day 12

Still the tank rack is clean! Minus a small amount of spirulina going on.

Oh and I would run your carbon before adding your vodka dosing

cowboy · Jun 25, 2016

Russ265 said:
i need to figure out where i can find enough metro to treat my 300 gallon system.

Well I'm sure I can get a few things of 100%metronidazole for you.
But I do not accept any major insurance card.

4FordFamily · Jun 25, 2016

So I remember when my dinos began - vodka dosing (carbon dosing).

Not sure if a coincidence but I hadn't had it ever in the ten years prior at least not noticeably

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

4FordFamily said:
So I remember when my dinos began - vodka dosing (carbon dosing).

Not sure if a coincidence but I hadn't had it ever in the ten years prior at least not noticeably

I started my first tank in 2005 and never once had to deal with these things until a few corrals got added to our frag tank several weeks ago then... BOOM! They exploded with a vengeance

Russ265 · Jun 25, 2016

i bought 4 doses of metronidazole at 5 grams a pop.

1x dose a day for 3 days, then a final dose during next week's wc.

sounds effective?

brandon429 · Jun 25, 2016

What is the known effect of metro on filtration bac

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

Russ265 said:
i bought 4 doses of metronidazole at 5 grams a pop.

1x dose a day for 3 days, then a final dose during next week's wc.

sounds effective?

That sounds like a perfect plan there Russ!
Keep us updated with cell images

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

brandon429 said:
What is the known effect of metro on filtration bac

My hypothesis is that any bacterium will be unharmed as this attacks protozoan

Russ265 · Jun 25, 2016

brandon429 said:
What is the known effect of metro on filtration bac

according to seachem it doesnt harm it. however chemiclean comes to mind.

brandon429 · Jun 25, 2016

The medical caption provided seemed to indicate it was bactericidal as an effect #1 but it said for anaerobic, wasn't sure of the scope. That could have been listed for a different med in that book but it seemed directly under the metro listing as working beyond flagellates to include amoebae and bac as well

miyags · Jun 25, 2016

Russ265 said:
i need to figure out where i can find enough metro to treat my 300 gallon system.

fish metronidazole pure medicated powder 100 grams on ebay for 37.90 shipped

StrangeDejavu · Jun 25, 2016

brandon429 said:
What is the known effect of metro on filtration bac

Here's a portion of a study taricha found on Metronidazole:

The toxic effect of the antibiotic metronidazole on aquatic organisms

Metronidazole has a low molecular weight, resulting in easy penetration of the cell membrane of both aerobe and anaerobe microorganisms. Inside the cell metronidazole is reduced to reactive intermediates that damage the DNA of the microorganism. The reductive process is thought usually to be mediated by a ferri-doxin system that exists in anaerobes. This may explain the specific effect of metronidazole against anaerobic microorganisms.

imidazoles and other compounds may present environmental problems including 1) adverse effects on ground-nitrifying bacteria, 2) disruption of the purification processes in treatment plants that use bacteria (e.g. methane production) caused by introduction of waste containing antibacterial drugs, 3) toxic effects on aquatic and terrestrial ecosystems and consequently interference with trophic chains.

Keyword being "may", but I would still monitor ammonia and nitrite during treatment just to be on the safe side.

twilliard · Jun 25, 2016

StrangeDejavu said:
Here's a portion of a study taricha found on Metronidazole:

Keyword being "may", but I would still monitor ammonia and nitrite during treatment just to be on the safe side.

I wonder if this applies to saltwater species of bacteria