1st time GFO user...questions

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Like I tried to mention earlier, I have the bag of GFO laying horizontally across the top of the sponge that came with the Tidal 110 and that seems to give enough flow through the GFO to work well (for me).
*Bag of Matrix rock on top to hold everything in place

Without the sponge, the flow might not be as dispersed across the bag of GFO but I guess see how it goes.
*seems like there will be columns of water from the slits in the basket passing through only some parts of the GFO bag but not sure
I have mine just like yours now except I don’t have the pond filter on top of my sponge, although I may steal that idea also.
The green/blue sponge doesn’t show in the picture because I have the GFO bag on top of it.
Thanks again for the details explaining how you have yours set up!
 
As frequently mentioned in this thread, not running this in a reactor makes this an inefficient process, and possibly ineffective too as more phosphate might get into the tank than out of it, plus surface release.

Also, running too much flow through the GFO is not great (it might grind the GFO too much) either and 200 gph is already too much, ideally not more than 100 gph.
 
IME if you need a significant reduction ( 0.6 to 0.1 ppm) of phosphate in a tank that is several years old. You can add a lot of GFO
( I use 800 gr in a reactor for a 100g tank). And let it work for a long time. GFO has very high capacity and adsorbed phosphate in the tank will always slow phosphate reduction.
 
Another approach is kalwasser.
Although not typically used to mitigate PO4, some precipitation of phosphate does happen when adding kalkwasser.

A 1/4 tsp per liter of RO is approximately a saturation solution.

Actual saturation is temp dependent.

A 1 liter bottle dripped in periodically will supplement some alkalinity and calcium as well as potential lower phosphates.
 
Another approach is kalwasser.
Although not typically used to mitigate PO4, some precipitation of phosphate does happen when adding kalkwasser.

A 1/4 tsp per liter of RO is approximately a saturation solution.

Actual saturation is temp dependent.

A 1 liter bottle dripped in periodically will supplement some alkalinity and calcium as well as potential lower phosphates.

That may or may not happen, but I would not typically use it as an way to get down a level that is excessive.

Your saturation amount may be low. It takes about 1.5 g/l to saturate, and that 1.5 g might typically occupy more like a half teaspoon, though it does depend on the bulk density (the fluffiness) of the brand used.
 
That may or may not happen, but I would not typically use it as an way to get down a level that is excessive.

Your saturation amount may be low. It takes about 1.5 g/l to saturate, and that 1.5 g might typically occupy more like a half teaspoon, though it does depend on the bulk density (the fluffiness) of the brand used.
Again you report and dismiss a statement,
Where it says originally that this method is not typically used for phosphate mitigation.

Also you mention that it does not happen.

But it is a known method in environmental mitigation.

When was the last time you measured a 1/4 tsp / 1/2 tsp on a scale.

Or bothered to measure and log the temp of the water/solevant.

All so you. Can say that’s wrong and I’m right.
 
Again you report and dismiss a statement,
Where it says originally that this method is not typically used for phosphate mitigation.

Also you mention that it does not happen.

But it is a known method in environmental mitigation.

When was the last time you measured a 1/4 tsp / 1/2 tsp on a scale.

Or bothered to measure and log the temp of the water/solevant.

All so you. Can say that’s wrong and I’m right.

Wow. No need to lash out. And I do think you are wrong.

Correct, I dismiss this as a suitable method. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Why am I not welcome to one if you are?

Mine is based on more than three decades of observation, and lack of ANY data to show usefully it lowers phosphate in a reef tank.

I am entirely well aware of the claim. In fact, I reported on it more than 20 years ago in my article on kalk..

It is a way to precipitate phosphate from fresh water. Craig Bingman published that data that for a kalk reservoir many, many years ago.

But it has NOT been shown for seawater that I have ever seen, and I presume your assertion about a known method relates to fresh water, where the chemistry is very different. But if you have reef tank data, I'm happy to be proven wrong. :)

As to the bulk density, it is very easy to look that up. It will, of course, vary by brand. But most are in the range around 0.5 g/cm3. That means a teaspoon weighs 2.5 g.

https://www.alfa-chemistry.com/product/calcium-hydroxide-cas-1305-62-0-501426.htmlBulk density: 450 to 640 kg/cu m.
 
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For those interested, here's my kalk article from 2005. In it I noted the same thing I noted here today: it MAY be true that it has an effect, but it has not been shown how or extent in a reef tank

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm
from it:

What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Phosphate

Many reefkeepers accept the concept that adding limewater reduces phosphate levels. This may be true,
but the mechanism remains to be demonstrated. Craig Bingman has done a variety of experiments related to this hypothesis, and has published them in the old Aquarium Frontiers. While many aquarists may not care what the mechanism is, knowing it would help to understand the limits of this method, and how it might best be employed.

Habib Sekha (Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria will exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way that can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity that such additions typically dump into the aquarium are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.).

It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels: phosphate binds to these growing surfaces, and becomes part of the solid precipitate. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding at lower and higher pH values. If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite having cut off all external phosphate sources. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may get buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 somehow dissolves. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the tank water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

An alternative mechanism for phosphate reduction via limewater may simply be the precipitation of calcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2. The water in many reef aquaria will be supersaturated with this material, as the equilibrium saturation concentration in normal seawater is only 0.002 ppm phosphate. The supersaturation of calcium phosphate will be even higher in the high pH/high calcium fluid present where limewater enters reef aquaria. The locally high pH converts much of the HPO4-- to PO4---, and it is the concentration of PO4--- that ultimately determines supersaturation. That high supersaturation may tip the balance to precipitation of calcium phosphate, just as too much limewater all at once can tip the balance to precipitation of calcium carbonate. As with CaCO3, the precipitation of Ca3(PO4)2 in seawater may be limited more by kinetic factors than by equilibrium factors, so it is impossible to say how much might precipitate under reef tank conditions (without, of course, somehow determining it experimentally).

As with the precipitation of CaCO3 containing some phosphate, if these calcium phosphate crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the tank water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.
 
Please, for the love of God, don’t make Randy mad. I cannot fathom the level of witchcraft and hearsay we would be doing with our tanks if it weren’t for him.

On another note….PO4 measured .51 today. Yaaay!
I’ll see what it is tomorrow and make adjustments if needed.
It dropped more than I was wanting it to but it may be the new box of reagent packets that I had to open for today’s test. I’ll see what it says tomorrow.
Also I am running kalk (Randy’s recipe) in my ATO.
 
I recently bagan to play around with GFO a bit also.
First I bought some Fluval Clearmax GFO because it was on sale. bought a bunch for cheap.
Ran 2 cups in a bag in high flow and after a week, my phosphate was even higher. The Clearmax did not seem to work at all in my tank.

Figured maybe Clearmax GFO in a bag just wasn't efficient enough, so I got a reactor.
loaded it with like 3 cups of Clearmax and ran it another week, and once again, it had zero impact to my phosphates. my phosphates did not fall, in fact, after the week, they were even higher. This was with several cups of the Clearmax in a media reactor and another two cups in the original clearmax in a bag. That did not lower my phosphates at all.

Dumped the Fluval Clearmax and got some Aquaforest Phosphate Minus GFO, loaded just 3 tablespoons of it into the media reactor. Despite the directions not to rinse it, I did rinse it in RODI and have been running it for almost a week now. 2 days after switching to the AquaForest GFO, my phosphates had dropped from .5 to .31. By day three, it had dropped to .29 and it's stayed there for the last 3 days now.

So like 5 cups of The Fluval Clearmax GFO didn't budge my phosphates at all, but just 3 tablespoons of the Phosphate Minus lowered them .2 PPM in 2 days. So not all GFO products are created equal. I've tried 2 and one did not work at all and one worked great.

I will say, the Aqua Forest Phosphate Minus tells you not to rinse it... but there was no way I was going to go without rinsing it. I had only put 3 tablespoons into my reactor and as soon as I turned it on, by the time the water reached the top, it looked like I had just brewed a pot of coffee. It took pumping about 4-5 gallons of RODI through the reactor before it was clear. works great, but no way would I pump that coffee stained water into my DT without rinsing it.
 
I recently bagan to play around with GFO a bit also.
First I bought some Fluval Clearmax GFO because it was on sale. bought a bunch for cheap.
Ran 2 cups in a bag in high flow and after a week, my phosphate was even higher. The Clearmax did not seem to work at all in my tank.

Figured maybe Clearmax GFO in a bag just wasn't efficient enough, so I got a reactor.
loaded it with like 3 cups of Clearmax and ran it another week, and once again, it had zero impact to my phosphates. my phosphates did not fall, in fact, after the week, they were even higher. This was with several cups of the Clearmax in a media reactor and another two cups in the original clearmax in a bag. That did not lower my phosphates at all.

Dumped the Fluval Clearmax and got some Aquaforest Phosphate Minus GFO, loaded just 3 tablespoons of it into the media reactor. Despite the directions not to rinse it, I did rinse it in RODI and have been running it for almost a week now. 2 days after switching to the AquaForest GFO, my phosphates had dropped from .5 to .31. By day three, it had dropped to .29 and it's stayed there for the last 3 days now.

So like 5 cups of The Fluval Clearmax GFO didn't budge my phosphates at all, but just 3 tablespoons of the Phosphate Minus lowered them .2 PPM in 2 days. So not all GFO products are created equal. I've tried 2 and one did not work at all and one worked great.

I will say, the Aqua Forest Phosphate Minus tells you not to rinse it... but there was no way I was going to go without rinsing it. I had only put 3 tablespoons into my reactor and as soon as I turned it on, by the time the water reached the top, it looked like I had just brewed a pot of coffee. It took pumping about 4-5 gallons of RODI through the reactor before it was clear. works great, but no way would I pump that coffee stained water into my DT without rinsing it.

I’ve not heard much about the clearmax brand, but that experience certainly doesn’t suggest using it. :)
 
I recently bagan to play around with GFO a bit also.
First I bought some Fluval Clearmax GFO because it was on sale. bought a bunch for cheap.
Ran 2 cups in a bag in high flow and after a week, my phosphate was even higher. The Clearmax did not seem to work at all in my tank.

Figured maybe Clearmax GFO in a bag just wasn't efficient enough, so I got a reactor.
loaded it with like 3 cups of Clearmax and ran it another week, and once again, it had zero impact to my phosphates. my phosphates did not fall, in fact, after the week, they were even higher. This was with several cups of the Clearmax in a media reactor and another two cups in the original clearmax in a bag. That did not lower my phosphates at all.

Dumped the Fluval Clearmax and got some Aquaforest Phosphate Minus GFO, loaded just 3 tablespoons of it into the media reactor. Despite the directions not to rinse it, I did rinse it in RODI and have been running it for almost a week now. 2 days after switching to the AquaForest GFO, my phosphates had dropped from .5 to .31. By day three, it had dropped to .29 and it's stayed there for the last 3 days now.

So like 5 cups of The Fluval Clearmax GFO didn't budge my phosphates at all, but just 3 tablespoons of the Phosphate Minus lowered them .2 PPM in 2 days. So not all GFO products are created equal. I've tried 2 and one did not work at all and one worked great.

I will say, the Aqua Forest Phosphate Minus tells you not to rinse it... but there was no way I was going to go without rinsing it. I had only put 3 tablespoons into my reactor and as soon as I turned it on, by the time the water reached the top, it looked like I had just brewed a pot of coffee. It took pumping about 4-5 gallons of RODI through the reactor before it was clear. works great, but no way would I pump that coffee stained water into my DT without rinsing it.
Funny you should mention Fluval Clearmax because I just tried that for a couple weeks before getting actual GFO. My experience was the same as your regarding lowering phosphates. They did not go down. It did seem to clear up my water and some of my algae disappeared though.
I'm not sure what it is, I assumed it was larger pieces of GFO in a resin, but it did not have any effect on my PO4. Theres probably 1/2 a cup or more of whatever it is in those prepackaged bags also.

I'm guessing your Aquaforest might be similar/the same as regular GFO (non high capacity)? I'm speculating because I have read on here that the regular GFO takes a bit more rinsing than the HC stuff. The HC stuff that I got took maybe 1/2 a gallon of rinsing to clear up. I did not use a reactor though, I just put it in a 180 micron bag and ran RO water through it and then rinsed/agitated the bag while it was in a Tupperware bowl a few times.

Are the aquaforest granules as large as the Clearmax? That's one of the reasons that I got Clearmax instead of GFO, I was afraid of the smaller GFO bits leaking out of the bag. The HC GFO that I have is definitely smaller than Clearmax but, from what I've read, has less fines than the non HC GFO.
The stuff I'm using now seems to be doing a fine job, but I would like to find a similar product with bigger pieces. I don't think it really hurts anything if some GFO escapes the bag from what I have read though.
 
What color is the clearmax?
It is GFO colored, just bigger IMG_0409.jpeg
 
PO4 at .48 today. Looks like it’s tapering off from the .51 yesterday and .61 the day before that.
I will see what it says tomorrow and then test weekly. When it starts to rise again I’ll change out the GFO and probably only use 2 tbs instead of the 3.5.
Also it might be my imagination, and unrelated, but the growth tips on my blue/purple stylophora look brighter than they did before. That might be a good sign, I hope.
Thanks EricR for telling me to lay the GFO horizontal and all the other suggestions!
N at 20+ish
Alk at 8.3

IMG_0416.jpeg
 
Are the aquaforest granules as large as the Clearmax? That's one of the reasons that I got Clearmax instead of GFO, I was afraid of the smaller GFO bits leaking out of the bag. The HC GFO that I have is definitely smaller than Clearmax but, from what I've read, has less fines than the non HC GFO.
The stuff I'm using now seems to be doing a fine job, but I would like to find a similar product with bigger pieces. I don't think it really hurts anything if some GFO escapes the bag from what I have read though.
No, the AquaForest Phosphate Minus product is finer grained than the Clearmax.

Despite the package telling you its pre-washed and dust free, it stains water quite a bit.
I'm only using 3 tablespoons of it at a time in my media reactor and the first gallon or so you run through it comes out looking black, like a pot of coffee, before it starts to clear up.
The first 3 tablespoons I used, I rinsed with 5 gallons of RO/DI before putting the reactor online.
The 2nd batch of 3 tablespoons, I only rinsed with 3 gallons of RO/DI before putting the reactor online.
Maybe I'll try just a 2 gallon rinse the next time. But I can't really see myself rinsing it much less than that.

The phosphate minus product package says it is pre-washed and dust free and does not need to be rinsed.
It says pumping the stained water into your system is fine and will help lower your phosphates... that rinsing may reduce the effectiveness.
well I'm just not there yet with the no rinsing.

so far the phosphate minus seems to be working fine.
my .PO4 was at .51 when I started running the Phosphate Minus product.
The first 3 tablespoons got me down to .31 before leveling off and staying there.
the second 3 tablespoon batch got it down to .17, overnight. (tested yesterday)
I'll check them again tonight. Hoping to get my .PO4 below .10 and then keep it there.

now I'd like to pick up some HC GFO and see how it compares to the Phosphate Minus product.
might have to grab some during a July 4 sale.
 
No, the AquaForest Phosphate Minus product is finer grained than the Clearmax.

Despite the package telling you its pre-washed and dust free, it stains water quite a bit.
I'm only using 3 tablespoons of it at a time in my media reactor and the first gallon or so you run through it comes out looking black, like a pot of coffee, before it starts to clear up.
The first 3 tablespoons I used, I rinsed with 5 gallons of RO/DI before putting the reactor online.
The 2nd batch of 3 tablespoons, I only rinsed with 3 gallons of RO/DI before putting the reactor online.
Maybe I'll try just a 2 gallon rinse the next time. But I can't really see myself rinsing it much less than that.

The phosphate minus product package says it is pre-washed and dust free and does not need to be rinsed.
It says pumping the stained water into your system is fine and will help lower your phosphates... that rinsing may reduce the effectiveness.
well I'm just not there yet with the no rinsing.

so far the phosphate minus seems to be working fine.
my .PO4 was at .51 when I started running the Phosphate Minus product.
The first 3 tablespoons got me down to .31 before leveling off and staying there.
the second 3 tablespoon batch got it down to .17, overnight. (tested yesterday)
I'll check them again tonight. Hoping to get my .PO4 below .10 and then keep it there.

now I'd like to pick up some HC GFO and see how it compares to the Phosphate Minus product.
might have to grab some during a July 4 sale.
I wouldn't feel comfortable pumping that in my tank either.
The Kolar HC GFO took me about the same amount of rinsing as the Rox 0.8 carbon, maybe a little more. I imagine the BRS HC GFO is pretty similar. I was going to get the BRS because it was on sale, but it was out of stock at the time.
 
Definitely go slow here, as others have said. It will come down to manageable levels. I usually go with a conservative amount, 1/2 what they recommend, so that I don't go to fast.
 

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