2 new clownfish died 24&48 hours :( What am I doing wrong?

[EBNewbie]

Hi all,
Brand new saltwater aquarist here. Did my homework by watching the BRS160 videos twice, most of the other BRS videos and read these forums for 3 months before building my 40B tank. This is the story on how I lost 2 clownfish in QT and I can't figure out why. These were my first two saltwater fish and until I find the root cause, I don't have the heart to try again

QT Equipment:
- 10G glass tank. Used to be a freshwater tank but washed with vinegar, rinsed in tap, dried for 3 months. Then before setting it up, washed and rinsed with RO/DI
- Fluval/Aquaclear HOB filter with sponge only. All brand new and rinsed with RO/DI
- 2 caps of Tim's one and only nitrifying bacteria.
- Koralia nano 240 gph. Rinsed in RO/DI, Ran in an RO/DI bucker for 30 mins, rinsed again
- Aqueon 10W heater. Previously used in freshwater but cleaned in the same manner as the tank
- Small digital thermometer probe. Was accurate to 0.5f it seems when I tested it against my Hana NIST thermometer
- HW Marinemix (fresh batch) prepared in a grey Brute 32G contained that has been rinsed and cleaned many times with RO/DI
- 2X2" PVC elbows. Cleaned with vinegar, rinsed with rap, then 2x RO/DI
- Seachem Ammonia Alert, just in case. Rinsed in RO/DI
- That's it. Bare bottom, cover on the tank, lights off.

QT Setup:
Tank was setup, heated and had the bacteria were added. 24 hours later I added 20 drops of "Drtim'S Aquatics Ammonium Chloride" and brought the ammonia concentration to around 1ppm (Tested with RedSea). Ammonia was gone in 2 days. Did a 25% water change. Left the tank running with everything on for a week. LFS has tanks at 1.025 and the QT matches this.

Fish purchase and acclimation 12/15
- Purchased 2 small ocellaris clownfish from a very reputable LFS. They ate well at the LFS and were bagged with 1 gallon of water. Drive home was 35 minutes and I set the car to 78F out of an abundance of caution.
- On the advice of the LFS, added below-therapeutic levels of copper to the QT tank before acclimation so they slow acclimate. 5 drops of Cuprion and tested a concentration of 0.1ppm via Seachem Multi-kit.
- Started drip acclimation with a rinsed Innovative marine drip kit. Flow was about 4 drops/sec.
- After the volume doubled, I removed 1/2 of the water and noticed it was a bit cooler than the QT tank water so I moved the 10W heater from the QT tank to the bucket and restarted the drip
- 10 minutes before ending the drip, I moved the heater back to the QT tank
- I netted both fish and released them in the QT

Feeding time
- Cut a cube of Hikari frozen mysis shrimp in half, let it defrost 10 mins in a bit of QT water
- Used a turkey baster to release just a little bit. The fish were taking a bite but not really eating. After 2 minutes, they were done and I threw the rest of the shrimps away.

Next morning 12/16
- One fish is doing well and the other one is relaxing at the bottom. I read forums and it seems to be normal for new fish. Kept the lights off and checked parameters. 0 across the board, PH of 8, salinity 1.025

Afternoon
- One fish is dead, the other one is breathing fast at the bottom. I realize there's something wrong with the water (Copper, something else? I don't know). I take the acclimation bucket from yesterday, use saltwater I had mixed the day before from the Brute 32g container and heat it up to 77.6F, same temperature as the QT. Added an air stone set to intermittent. Netted the fish from the QT to the acclimation bucket.
- Video taken when the 1st fish died.


Testing the QT
- Ammonia: 0 (Tested with Red Sea, also used the Seachem decal AND tetra test strips because I had them around)
- Nitrite: 0 (Red Sea and tetra strips)
- Nitrate: 2ppm or below (Redsea had a tiny pink hue so anything between 0.1 and 2. No color change on the tetra strip)
- PH: 8 on the API salt water master kit and around 8 on a tetra strip (I don't have a PH kit from RedSea, my DT has both the SenEye and a calibrated Neptune)
- Phosphate: 0 (Hanna LR checker)
- Temperature 77.6F (Hanna NST traceable probe)
- Salinity 1.025 (Milwaukee, zero'd with RO/DI, checked against reference solution as well)
- Alkalinity 8.9kDH (Hanna)

Rebuilding the QT evening
- While the little guy was in the 3G bucket with an air stone and a heater
- Tore down the QT, washed all parts disassembled with diluted vinegar, rinsed thoroughly with warm freshwater.
- 2x Rinse of everything with RO/DI
- Wipe down everything with kitchen paper.
- Mixed a new batch of 1.025 salt in a different reef container rinsed with RO/DI
- Re-assembled the QT tank with everything that was used previously, all dried. Hands rinsed with RO/DI
- Heated the saltwater with a 150W heater + the 10W heater
- While the QT is heating, checked ammonia in the 3g bucket. 0ppm
- Once the QT is ready, removed the 150W heater, tested PH (8), copper (0), ammonia/nitrite/nitrate (0) and temperature for both the 3g container and the QT. All matched
- Netted the fish from the 3g container to the QT. QT now consists of: 10g tank, HOB filter with new sponge, 10W heater, 1 2" PVC elbow, NO POWERHEAD (Maybe he got tired of the current?), Left about 2 inch between the hob water return and the surface to create water movement.
- Seemed to do better albeit staying mostly in the bottom 10% of the tank
- Did not feed (Fish was not in the mood, was fed 12/15 at the LFS and 12/15 at night a tiny bit of mysis shrimps)
- Went to bed

This morning 12/17 around 7:30am
- Fish seems to be doing better, swims around but reaches for the top of the water.
- Added new stone with new tubing rinsed in RO/DI to tank, set to interval mode to make sure the water has plenty of oxygen
- Tested ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (0,0,0). Copper was also 0. Temperature 77.7F
- Went to work

Later this morning 10:00am
- Wife lets me know that the fish seems to be doing better, swimming around

Death 12:00
- Got a text from my wife. Fish is on its side, motionless. Not breathing and "dead eyes".

Pretty devastated in my failed attempt to keep hardy fish alive for 2 days I tried to do everything by the book, nothing touched the tank before being rinsed with RO/DI, did all the testing. The only thing on my mind is the copper from day 0 but surely 0.1ppm would not have killed 2 fish? I think I got quality fish from the LFS so something I did killed them and I can't find what is it.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Sorry to hear about your loss It almost sounds like the qt tank wasn't fully cycled. After you brought up the ammonia to 1ppm and did a 25 % water change, did you do anything to keep the bacteria population up?

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Sucks about the clowns. This may not necessarily be anything you did specifically. Chances are the fish had velvet and the stress pushed it over the edge. I have had a few fish die in QT that showed no signs of issues one day and the next they were gone. It happens, but that's one of the reasons we QT everything to ensure what ever killed that fish doesn't make it into our display tanks.

 

[Big G]

It almost sounds like the qt tank wasn't fully cycled

You may find that your fish will do better if you let the QT cycle for 30 days or so, going through not just the ammonia cycle but also the nitrite cycle into the nitrate cycle. Some water changes as needed after the nitrite cycle has completed itself.

 

[EBNewbie]

Sorry to hear about your loss It almost sounds like the qt tank wasn't fully cycled. After you brought up the ammonia to 1ppm and did a 25 % water change, did you do anything to keep the bacteria population up?

No but the 25% water change was only a few days before I added the fish

You may find that your fish will do better if you let the QT cycle for 30 days or so, going through not just the ammonia cycle but also the nitrite cycle into the nitrate cycle. Some water changes as needed after the nitrite cycle has completed itself.

I thought that by adding the nitrifying bacteria, and making sure the dosed ammonia went to 0 while nitrates increased it would mean that the tank is cycled, despite not having a major colony.
Would a tank with a low bacterial population kill these two fish so quickly, even though my ammonia readings was 0 all along?

One thing I noticed when viewing my video on a 40" monitor at work instead of a 5" iphone is the small white thing hanging off a fin of the fish. Could this indicate anything or am I just seeing things?

 

[JumboShrimp]

You are to be commended for all your thoughtful advance-preparation, and your detailed description of what transpired. You must be almost beyond belief to have lost your first two fish. I, too, was wondering how many days were spent cycling your tank? And if you happened to have asked, how long were those fish at your LFS? Just in general, I suppose if you are new to the hobby you will test the waters (pun) with less expensive fish at first, and make your way up to the more expensive fish as your experience level increases. Sorry about your loss. Anyway, nothing really jumps off the page at me; Maybe just one of those unfortunate ‘silent killer’ situations?... but most likely those fish were already compromised at the LFS and the stress of their changed environment put them over the edge.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Just a head's up, it can take upwards of an hour or more for the ammonia tag to show any change. When I setup my 10g QT I dosed it with Seachem Stability for a week before I added anything to it. I out a couple small chunks of cured live rock from my main tank sump in there as well as a few pieces of PVC. There were times the Ammonia badge only showed a slight elevation from base but a separate test kit showed it was closer to .5 prompting water changes.

 

[NewGoby]

Amazing how much research you've done & how well you've documented everything.
In the video the only thing that stands out to me, is that the gills of the dead ocellaris seem red in the video, that could be ammonia. Other than that it very well could've been a silent killer, as mentioned by others.

Yes, ocellaris are hardy, but for some reason they tend to show signs of distress & disease earlier than other fish, while often dying later.

I'd cycle a new QT tank, for atleast 30-40 days, and adding a few flakes of food in every day, also add in a piece of LR or two, the bacteria tend to be in the sand bed & the LR rather than the water column.
Prior to adding in new fish i'd also do a 20-25% water change

 

[JasonK84]

Next time use the entire 2 oz bottle of bacteria. I think the bottle says it's good for up to 30 gallons but I used the entire bottle when I set mine up (biocube 14 but really hold about 9.5 gallons) and had fish in the next day. The fish went through a month of copper power without needing a single water change. Changed 8 gallons and started first round of Prazi yesterday.

I'm thinking there wasn't enough bacteria.

 

[EBNewbie]

I, too, was wondering how many days were spent cycling your tank?

10 days total. It was cycled with Dr Tim's nitrifying bacterias which is supposed to allow me to add fish immediately. Here's my cycle timeline since it's not very clear from my post:
12/05
Tank is running at the correct temperature, salinity is good and all readings normal (0 ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate). Did not test PH as it was a fresh batch of hw marine saltwater. Added 2 caps of nitrifying bacteria
12/06
After the bacteria had 24 hours to take hold in the sponge, I raise the ammonia of the QT to 1.0ppm with Dr Tim's ammonium chloride. I didn't mind paying a bit extra to get something I was 100% sure was pure instead of finding janitorial ammonia.
12/08
Ammonia reads 0, nitrite reads 0, nitrate around 2ppm, maybe lower. I conclude that the tank is cycled but let it run with the lights off so bacteria can get a stronghold of that sponge
12/13
25% water change. The sponge remains wet with tank water in the HOB. The new saltwater I added was cooler than the tank but I had no fish. I think the new saltwater was at around 66F and the tank went from 78->74.
12/15
Salinity is still at 1.025 but the water evaporated slightly so I add a tiny bit of RO/DI to bring it to what it was when I filled it initially. I also tested my parameters before going to the LFS just to be sure. ammonia/nitrite 0, nitrate <2ppm. Did not test PH. On the PH though, my (cycling) DT has a Seneye and calibrated Neptune probe that places the PH from the same saltwater mix and same room at 8.05 in the am and 7.95 in the pm for 12/15.

Would a 10g tank that can bring 1ppm ammonia to 0 in 48 hours have an insufficient bacteria colony to host 2 clown fish though? Would I have noticed an increase of ammonia if that were the case?

 

[JumboShrimp]

Again, as meticulous as you are, only good things are in your fish-keeping future! But as for ‘potions’ that claim you CAN drop fish right in, probably doesn’t mean you SHOULD drop fish right in. As someone correctly noted, the SeaChem Ammonia Badges— while highly recommended— do have a tiny initial lag time. If the ammonia spike kicked in hard and fast, it may have been too late. It seems the consensus so far seems to be ‘ammonia toxicity,’ due to inadequate cycling. I say get right back on the horse, cycle longer, and use a cheaper test-fish ($5.00 Damsel) when you think your tank is ready.

 

[Big G]

No but the 25% water change was only a few days before I added the fish



I thought that by adding the nitrifying bacteria, and making sure the dosed ammonia went to 0 while nitrates increased it would mean that the tank is cycled, despite not having a major colony.
Would a tank with a low bacterial population kill these two fish so quickly, even though my ammonia readings was 0 all along?

One thing I noticed when viewing my video on a 40" monitor at work instead of a 5" iphone is the small white thing hanging off a fin of the fish. Could this indicate anything or am I just seeing things?[/QUOTE

This works for me; of course your mileage may vary.

Prophylactic Treatment: No observed symptoms of disease or injury

20 gal QT cycled (usually takes about 30-35 days for the tank to go through the ammonia + nitrite + nitrate cycle: Both ammonia and nitrites must be = 0
- HOB with both the foam pad & BioMax treated with Bio Spira/Dr Tims, and foam bubble filter with foam soaked in the same for at least 2 days. Pour remaining BioSpira/Dr. Tims into the QT, or all of them soaked for at least 2 weeks in DT sump.
- heater, powerhead, Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.
- Tank lights off. Ambient room lighting only.
- Feed fish with white/black worms, and or vitamin & fiber packed frozen food with Selcon/Zoecon for at least 3 days
- Freshwater dip to check for flukes. If no flukes treat first with copper.
- S-l-o-w-l-y (8-10 days) bring up copper to therapeutic levels for prophylactic treatment for 30 days: Tank lights off until therapeutic level is reached. Best to dose several times a day (AM, lunch, PM) rather than one large dose. Highly recommend use of Copper Power and a Hanna HL Copper Checker.
- Carbon & Cuprisorb to remove copper. Water changes. Observe.
- General Cure 2 doses 5-7 days apart. Turn up bubbler and turn on powerhead aimed at surface to increase O2. Like GC over Prazipro. GC has Metro + Praziquantel, so you are getting the Praziquantel which kills flukes and "some" internal parasites and Metro that kills all internal parasites/worms. And the dose of Praziquantel is lower but does the job and is easier on sensitive fish.
- Carbon & water changes.
- Observe 10-14 days.

 

[EBNewbie]

do have a tiny initial lag time

Yes, you are correct. After I raised ammonia to 1ppm, it didn't react for about 1-2 hours I'd say.
Would something similar apply to the RedSea testkit? I see on the test kit that they test for Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4), while only NH3 is deadly in small quantities. Seneye has this chart and explanation here

Is it possible that my water contained a higher dose of NH3 and the test kit were aggregating the results?

I hope I'm not coming across as in denial of the cycling process or impatient. I want to make sure that I can not only have a better chance next time, I have extra data I can look at. If my ammonia test method is not accurate (I did Seachem, Red Sea and test strips), I would want to find one that is.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Chemistry is not my strong suit, by any means, but let’s not overlook the obvious: If your tank is a 10-gallon tank, filled to the brim with no sand, rock, or equipment, are we really talking about 7 1/2 to 8 actual, usable gallons with those things added? Water problems magnify in such small working quantities of tank water. ‘Off by a little’ can quickly translate into ‘off by a lot,’ right?

 

[EBNewbie]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far. It's a really great feeling to have such a strong community with a 4 minute response time for problems! I just became a supporting member and hopefully as I get more experience, I'll be able to contribute more.

I'm still not sure about the ammonia, I did a bit of research and found this post about setting up an emergency tank:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/
Seems like I shouldn't have had ammonia, at least during the first 24 hours. All my tests were negative as well. I wonder if there's something else I can test for?

 

[User]

Counter-point: I doubt it was ammonia.

People do TTM with 10g tanks and a few inches of fish- eg, couple small clowns— all the time, and the ammonia doesn’t build up enough in the 3 days to be an issue.

Also, I regularly dump a whole small bottle of biospira into the filter of an aquaclear 20 on a 10 g tank a day before getting new fish, and I’ve never read anything other than yellow on my ammonia badge, for up to 3 weeks while my fish undergo copper treatment. I’ve never cycled a QT tank for a week, let alone a month. For bigger fish or messy ones, I’ll use a preseeded filter from my sump, but small fish just get the biospira treatment.

I agree with everyone else- your planning was immaculate and very well researched- and I’m super bummed out for your losses

And please don’t put a sacrificial fish in your tank to test the cycle- [edited in response to clarification].

 

[JumboShrimp]

I hate to be an indecisive flip-flopper, but I read @neilp2006 ’s post and he raises points that I have also experienced first hand— namely, no problems with small, unicycled, QT tanks for up to a month running cooper; that’s why your whole ordeal is a bit mysterious. (Note, too, however, that @neilp2006 uses the whole bottle of beneficial bacteria; if I recall, you only used 2 capfulls.) But just a point of clarification: I was not suggesting to use a Damsel to cycle your tank. I was only suggesting that ‘after’ you believe your tank is fully/properly cycled, maybe venture back into the game with an inespensive fish until you gain some confidence/peace of mind before investing in a new Clown pair. Best wishes to all.

 

[User]

I hate to be an indecisive flip-flopper, but I read @neilp2006 ’s post and he raises points that I have also experienced first hand— namely, no problems with small, unicycled, QT tanks for up to a month running cooper; that’s why your whole ordeal is a bit mysterious. (Note, too, however, that @neilp2006 uses the whole bottle of beneficial bacteria; if I recall, you only used 2 capfulls.) But just a point of clarification: I was not suggesting to use a Damsel to cycle your tank. I was only suggesting that ‘after’ you believe your tank is fully/properly cycled, maybe venture back into the game with an inespensive fish until you gain some confidence/peace of mind before investing in a new Clown pair. Best wishes to all.

Thanks for the clarification- appreciated.

Also- I think 2-3 capfuls of dr Tim’s is an equivalent dose of a small bottle (100 ml) biospira. I think. But for the record- id dump the whole bottle of dr Tim’s in too . Its just that I can find biospira fir cheaper and I had a few bottles left from cycling the 180

 

[Cruz Mc5]

I posted in your other thread, but 2 days seems pretty quick to get to a toxic level of ammonia from 2 fish. Especially if you were starting out with 0.

 

[EBNewbie]

Just to make it clear while we're looking for solutions. After the 1st fish died, I tested parameters and had 0 ammonia and a little bit of nitrates (a tiny bit more than before I added the fish), indicating that while not a fully established bacteria colony, it did process some ammonia and none of my test kits were able to detect ANY ammonia AFTER the first fish had died.
I tested the water from the 2nd uncycled "emergency" tank tonight after the 2nd fish had died and it had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate.