I saw on another thread that you mix in 1 scoop of metro, 1 scoop of focus and 1 tsp of frozen food. Are you still doing the same thing? Also how long do you feed them these medicated soaked food? Thanks.
3rd Try at Quarantining Lineatus Wrasse:
- Thread starter Tanggy
- Start date
- Tagged users None
HotRocks
Fish Fanatic!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
INDMAS Member
My Tank Thread
It's one scoop (that comes with metro) of each metro and focus, or GC and focus. To one tablespoon of thawed frozen. Refrigerate between feedings, toss and make new after 5 days if they haven't consumed it all.
I use metro first usually. Metro only treats for parasites internally. GC covers both worms and parasites.
14 days of feeding the med soaked food usually does the trick. I personally have never had to go longer than 14, some cases I've read people had to use it for 21 days.
I use metro first usually. Metro only treats for parasites internally. GC covers both worms and parasites.
14 days of feeding the med soaked food usually does the trick. I personally have never had to go longer than 14, some cases I've read people had to use it for 21 days.
mcarroll
10K Club member
For better or worse that's The Way.
(Or at least the way that gets proselytized the most.)
As a result you have threads like this pop up with frequency.....and it's heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking to go through and heartbreaking to watch.
Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. (Often it goes on a third fourth or even fifth round...
)If that's the trend of results you see, then stop what you're doing.
The real problem is that there's someone out there telling folks that The Way is really the way. If anything The Way is wishful.
Fish + Med + Prison QT = Healthy Fish
Doesn't that look too good to be true? It is.
That's why sometimes even healthy fish don't make it through the process.
It's luck that any sick fish make it through.
As far as the folks unequivocally defending copper use, not one single autopsy has been done so IMO there's no basis for the opinion or foundation for treatment. Autopsy could ID actual parasites if any were really present to begin with and could possibly identify sign Cu toxicity.
As it is, everyone is guessing with 100% confidence about the state of the fish how many times now and nobody is giving the fish the benefit of the doubt.
If there are any more deaths ;Cold, why not try one fish the old fashioned way and just observe?
Give the fish a nice-but-not-fancy fish-only tank to live in for a month or two. Not a prison-like QT system, but something decorated naturalistically for low stress. (Think plastic plants and a piece of seasoned live rock....nothing fancy!)
Fish have been documented being carriers for parasites that they are immune to for up to six month-ish....so keep him fat and happy in "QT" for long enough for any immunity to wear off and he'll be as "sterile" as the next fish. I'll bet you're ready to add him to the display before that timer is up though.
@cracker's method should work just as well though...the excessive time and concept of defeating some immunity the fish already has seem like "a lot".
Even if you fail, at least you can say you tried something else rather than simply repeating repeating repeating the same failed recipe. That's good for sanity if for nothing else.
The old fashioned way wiped out my entire tank before. I had a flame angel that I didn't treat with copper (well known for being copper sensitive). I had him in QT about about 2 months. Maybe a round of prazipro. Nothing else. Looked good. Was eating well. NO signs of anthing. Put him into my DT. A couple of wks later my PBT and PT showed spots. They all died within a few days including the flame angel.For better or worse that's The Way.
(Or at least the way that gets proselytized the most.)
As a result you have threads like this pop up with frequency.....and it's heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking to go through and heartbreaking to watch.
Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. (Often it goes on a third fourth or even fifth round...
If that's the trend of results you see, then stop what you're doing.
The real problem is that there's someone out there telling folks that The Way is really the way. If anything The Way is wishful.
Fish + Med + Prison QT = Healthy Fish
Doesn't that look too good to be true? It is.
That's why sometimes even healthy fish don't make it through the process.
It's luck that any sick fish make it through.
As far as the folks unequivocally defending copper use, not one single autopsy has been done so IMO there's no basis for the opinion or foundation for treatment. Autopsy could ID actual parasites if any were really present to begin with and could possibly identify sign Cu toxicity.
As it is, everyone is guessing with 100% confidence about the state of the fish how many times now and nobody is giving the fish the benefit of the doubt.
If there are any more deaths ;Cold, why not try one fish the old fashioned way and just observe?
Give the fish a nice-but-not-fancy fish-only tank to live in for a month or two. Not a prison-like QT system, but something decorated naturalistically for low stress. (Think plastic plants and a piece of seasoned live rock....nothing fancy!)
Fish have been documented being carriers for parasites that they are immune to for up to six month-ish....so keep him fat and happy in "QT" for long enough for any immunity to wear off and he'll be as "sterile" as the next fish. I'll bet you're ready to add him to the display before that timer is up though.
@cracker's method should work just as well though...the excessive time and concept of defeating some immunity the fish already has seem like "a lot".
Even if you fail, at least you can say you tried something else rather than simply repeating repeating repeating the same failed recipe. That's good for sanity if for nothing else.
I wouldn't introduce a fish into my DT unless I know for certain it is free of parasites.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Suggesting people don’t treat fish with an ailment is unethical and reckless. I cannot even remotely get on board with this suggestion. It’s not working out real well for many of those in the fish disease forum. Disease is everywhere due to a lazy distribution system, if people don’t even try they’ll suffer catastrophic loss these days.For better or worse that's The Way.
(Or at least the way that gets proselytized the most.)
As a result you have threads like this pop up with frequency.....and it's heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking to go through and heartbreaking to watch.
Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. Add fish. Treat. Dead. Repeat. (Often it goes on a third fourth or even fifth round...
If that's the trend of results you see, then stop what you're doing.
The real problem is that there's someone out there telling folks that The Way is really the way. If anything The Way is wishful.
Fish + Med + Prison QT = Healthy Fish
Doesn't that look too good to be true? It is.
That's why sometimes even healthy fish don't make it through the process.
It's luck that any sick fish make it through.
As far as the folks unequivocally defending copper use, not one single autopsy has been done so IMO there's no basis for the opinion or foundation for treatment. Autopsy could ID actual parasites if any were really present to begin with and could possibly identify sign Cu toxicity.
As it is, everyone is guessing with 100% confidence about the state of the fish how many times now and nobody is giving the fish the benefit of the doubt.
If there are any more deaths ;Cold, why not try one fish the old fashioned way and just observe?
Give the fish a nice-but-not-fancy fish-only tank to live in for a month or two. Not a prison-like QT system, but something decorated naturalistically for low stress. (Think plastic plants and a piece of seasoned live rock....nothing fancy!)
Fish have been documented being carriers for parasites that they are immune to for up to six month-ish....so keep him fat and happy in "QT" for long enough for any immunity to wear off and he'll be as "sterile" as the next fish. I'll bet you're ready to add him to the display before that timer is up though.
@cracker's method should work just as well though...the excessive time and concept of defeating some immunity the fish already has seem like "a lot".
Even if you fail, at least you can say you tried something else rather than simply repeating repeating repeating the same failed recipe. That's good for sanity if for nothing else.
Not one biopsy has been done? Are you serious? Do you not read the fish disease forum? Sweeping statements like that are why the fish disease forum may completely disregard your fish disease advice.
Your nutrition suggestions are strong, some of your other suggestions have merit to some degree or another.
I cannot imagine a world where it’s ok not to treat deadly disease or parasites. Would you suggest your family to dance in circles and eat better to battle cancer? Sorry this is unfathomable.
Last edited:
The problem with passive observation on a fish with a thick slime coat (e.g. wrasse, clownfish, dragonet) is you may never see symptoms of parasites/worms. The wrasse goes through QT with flying colors, but is an unwitting reservoir for parasites. He goes into your DT, where he shares water with Mr. Tang (or other fish with a thin mucous coat), and then all hell breaks loose. If you can live with this risk, then by all means do not prophylactically treat your wrasse.
On the other hand, not all fish handle medications well, especially those already weak/malnourished. Putting such a fish straight into copper will likely kill him. So, instead of this "all or nothing" choice you seem to be getting... Why not get your Lineatus eating for a week or so, and then slowly (take a week to get to therapeutic) begin raising copper on him? I think sometimes people are in too big of a hurry to get a fish thru QT.
On the other hand, not all fish handle medications well, especially those already weak/malnourished. Putting such a fish straight into copper will likely kill him. So, instead of this "all or nothing" choice you seem to be getting... Why not get your Lineatus eating for a week or so, and then slowly (take a week to get to therapeutic) begin raising copper on him? I think sometimes people are in too big of a hurry to get a fish thru QT.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I understand the desire for there to be a Perfect System or The Way.
I'm just not in denial over how things work out. (Haven't you seen a thread from someone who's had a tank wipe after QT? You don't have to look too hard.)
I dunno if you're into troubleshooting or if your reply was maybe intended as snark
....but if troubleshooting is of interest, then I'd have to question the tank the angel was going into as well as the inhabitants that were there before him. The angel is by far not the only possible culprit...unless you subscribe to The Way. Do you have a thread where you worked through the old issue? I'm game for giving it a read to see what if anything I can see.I can show you far more wipeout threads from those who do not quarantine.
Everyone's looking for a "perfect solution" nowadays when no such thing exists.
There are pros & cons to quarantining, and not quarantining. But to make it sound like quarantining is nothing but a bad thing really discredits you.
HotRocks
Fish Fanatic!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
INDMAS Member
My Tank Thread
If someone has a DT wipeout after QTing fish, it would likely be due to not properly QTing corals, inverts, CUC, macro algae etc. Before adding them to the tank.
Can SOME fish live in ich management, why yes of course, but is this any more ethical or natural than maintaining a disease free DT? I know it's a controversial topic. I just don't see the point in taking a chance with how rampant things like velvet, uronema, and of late gram negative bacteria have become in this industry. Of course this will depend on the type of fish you desire to keep as well. I don't see too many people keeping Acanthurus tangs with much success in an "immunity" or ich management tank as I like to call it.
Can SOME fish live in ich management, why yes of course, but is this any more ethical or natural than maintaining a disease free DT? I know it's a controversial topic. I just don't see the point in taking a chance with how rampant things like velvet, uronema, and of late gram negative bacteria have become in this industry. Of course this will depend on the type of fish you desire to keep as well. I don't see too many people keeping Acanthurus tangs with much success in an "immunity" or ich management tank as I like to call it.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I can show you far more wipeout threads from those who do not quarantine.
Everyone's looking for a "perfect solution" nowadays when no such thing exists.
I did not say that.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Thank you - excellent reply.
I will address your points and then add a few of my own in the style of "old-fashioned discussion".
(Sorry in advance for the length....posted some good links that will hopefully make the length worth it.
)A wipeout could also be from a carrier fish that made it through QT+meds, improper QT+meds, or just a fish that had a pathogen other than what the formula hypothetically covers...something with a different "76 days" number, or something more resistant, etc, etc. "Life will find a way" to quote a stupid movie.
Looking at things like algae and snails for your vector is really reaching even if it's theoretically possible. Even fewer folks QT those than QT their fish - almost nobody. If they were a real vector of concern, the hobby ought to be completely fishless.
Plenty of folks have kept tangs successfully without our peculiar version of "QT" too.
There's no such thing as an "immunity tank" or "ich management tank"....those are made up terms just for the benefit of this QT+meds idea.
How it really is: Fish have immune systems, and immune systems manage pathogens. No tanks involved.
While I don't deny that some folks have used QT+meds and yet still managed to keep tangs alive, I question what shape a tang will be in at the end of such a QT. (Without getting luck involved, rough shape and still susceptible to pathogens would be my guess.)
The only point I was really trying to make is that the usual recommendation for "QT+meds" of a nearly bare tank that has been purposefully laced with toxins (ie. QT+meds) is no miracle fish cure.
Unfortunately it gets talked up as if it were a miracle cure.
And the alternatives (essentially anything without meds) are talked down as if they were the BassOMatic. As if nobody could keep fish alive before QT+meds was invented. (Witness that other reply I got?
)Thanks to all that talking down...
Lots of folks who do well with fish but who don't buy into the QT+meds idea end up not feeling welcome and then don't even look at the Fish Disease forum, which kinda seems to function as an echo chamber on the ideas there. You really have to hang out away from the disease forum to get other input.
That leaves a lot of folks who take their problem directly to the Fish Disease forum to end up depending on QT+meds like that's all there is to making healthy fish.
If someone gets into that mode, they are not going to look very deeply at other aspects of their tank or their system (or where they buy their fish, etc, etc) when they already have the problems pre-solved with a miracle cure. This would be awesome if pre-solving problems like this were possible, but in reality is crucially misleading.
The problem with that is that QT+meds is fallible:
- It cannot catch or treat every potential pathogen.
- Every fish keeper cannot do the procedure 100% correctly. 100% correct is necessary.
- On top of all that, the meds themselves are toxic.
This is why healthy fish should not be subjected to QT+meds.
And why healthy fish often don't even make it through the process when they are subjected to it.
The Problem
I suspect the problem is that some folks don't even believe in the concept of a healthy fish - only "sterile" fish that they can "make" with QT+meds.
There's a lot of science on the immune system and how a fish stays healthy though.
And I'm not aware of any science at all on making or keeping sterile fish or anything of the sort.
The Answers
The SRAC (southern regional aquaculture center) document series on aquaculture bio-security opens with the following paragraph: (Please recall from writing class that you end your opening paragraph with the big point the reader is supposed to take away....that point, in this case, has nothing to do with meds.
)Check out that and their other guides in the SRAC's section on diseases. I highly recommend reading the whole BioSecurity series as well as the other docs in that section.
A couple more quotes about QT from that doc:
"If necessary" accompanies the only mention of meds.
Meds aren't even a major component of QT in their eyes.
Maybe another good read...this one from the Fisheries Service:
The Guide to Using Drugs, Biologics, and Other Chemicals in Aquaculture (Guide)
(Start with Page 16: "Best Management Practices...".)
Our rendition of QT+meds does not reduce stress. Therefore it does not reduce susceptibility to disease.
Here's where we may go the wrongest:
Nobody does any of this.
Well, I've read about @Paul B doing it, but nobody else...and he barely needs to!
BTW, a microscope costs $10 and up and there are youtube vid's on how....there isn't much excuse if we're going to be hard-core about fish disease or fish keeping.
FYI, there are germ-free animals raised in labs for use in labs, but that's a very very different thing...and kinda gross. But their existence did teach us that microbes - even potential pathogens - are actually required for proper development.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
In what way are your statements being mischaracterized?I didn't say that. You guys are a pair!
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
My thoughts exactly.
@mcarroll, your anti QT crusades and implied statistics based on absolutely nothing— not even anecdote/experience— are perplexing.
I’ve actually been on both polar extremes on these topics. I have far more experience trying to maintain parasites (9-10 years) than treat them (3-4 years). I try not to speak from complete ignorance.
My reply was not meant to be a snark at anyone. I write what I believe in. If you take it the wrong way so be it. The tangs were treated and fully quarantined (30 day of cupramine). Was it just coincident that upon introducing the flame angel, every one in the DT developed symptoms? maybe. But if I had fully quarantined the flame angel, I believe I'll still have them today. Looking back, if I couldn't treat the flame angel with copper, i should have gone the TTM or hyposalinity method. For ME, quarantine and prophylactic treatment is a must.I understand the desire for there to be a Perfect System or The Way.
I'm just not in denial over how things work out. (Haven't you seen a thread from someone who's had a tank wipe after QT? You don't have to look too hard.)
I dunno if you're into troubleshooting or if your reply was maybe intended as snark
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2016
- Messages
- 551
- Reaction score
- 252
I am a big fan of prophylactic treatment in QT after having velvet sneak into my display on an asymptomatic fish (either a wrasse or anthias, not sure). That said, I did recently quarantine a supermale lineatus who was intolerant to both copper and chloroquine phosphate (which the jury is still out about on fairy wrasses). Ramped CopperSafe chelated copper over about 5 days, ate fine until we got up above 1.5, at which point he stopped eating. Switched from Cu to CP and still didn't eat. Ended up pulling the meds, treating only with General Cure and observing for about 2 months. Most wrasses are fine in chelated copper, but there are always exceptions. Good luck!
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2016
- Messages
- 551
- Reaction score
- 252
That's a pretty solid plan, ever have issues with GC while treating copper?
Gram negative bacterial infections are a nightmare... Just dropped a ton of cash on Nitrofuracin Green for next time I experience one of those.
Update on the Lineatus and 2 potter wrasse: I stopped adding copper yesterday. All seems to be acting normal and still eating well. I will start adding copper again today (at the rate I am on it's going to take me 2wks to get to 1.75ppm: I am ok with that)
Similar threads
