Arabian angel in QT

[Trial by Fire]

I have an Arabian angel currently in QT with several others including a couple of wrasses. For the fists 10 days they were just under observation . Im currently running copper power at 2.5. Because I read that wrasses may not do well with copper I took 7 days to reach 2.5. I am currently in day 9 of the copper treatment .

Up until 3 days ago all fish were doing fine and eating well. I noticed that one of the angels eyes had a clear sack around it . Yesterday it looked a little cloudy so I mixed metro, kanaplex and focus on with mysis thinking it might be an infection. This morning the angel is hiding and not eating for the first time Looking for recommendations on where to go from here.

Salinity is 1.025
Ammonia is 0
Ph is 7.8
Alk is 9
Temp is 79
Copper is 2.5

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have an Arabian angel currently in QT with several others including a couple of wrasses. For the fists 10 days they were just under observation . Im currently running copper power at 2.5. Because I read that wrasses may not do well with copper I took 7 days to reach 2.5. I am currently in day 9 of the copper treatment .

Up until 3 days ago all fish were doing fine and eating well. I noticed that one of the angels eyes had a clear sack around it . Yesterday it looked a little cloudy so I mixed metro, kanaplex and focus on with mysis thinking it might be an infection. This morning the angel is hiding and not eating for the first time Looking for recommendations on where to go from here.

Salinity is 1.025
Ammonia is 0
Ph is 7.8
Alk is 9
Temp is 79
Copper is 2.5

The cloudy eye may be a simple injury and heal on its own or an increase in ammonia. You could have gone to copper level 2.25 but if fish is tolerating well, should be ok. The issue you likely encountered was mixing meds with theyjr copper which likely caused a huge reaction. In fair words, you overreacted and may have done more harm than good. Metro and kanaplex alone should Not be mixed and Metro must be applied precisely at .5gm in weight which is a very tiny amount. Focus is a binder and unnecessary for the issue at hand
The angel I can guess has increased breathing respirations. I would do a Good water change, reset copper at 2.25 for a full 30 days and add an air stone for added oxygen while monitoring water quality

 

[threebuoys]

Can you provide photos using white light?

What other fish are in the QT with the wrasse? Aggression may be an issue.

Do you have a bowl of non-calcareous sand in the QT for the wrasse to bury in?

You cannot start the 30 day copper treatment count until you reach full dosage. Generally, you should be able to ramp up in less than 24 hours.

 

[MnFish1]

Though I would not mix medications at this point, If the eye is looking worse, I would transfer the one fish to a tank with the usual dose of copper, and you can add kanamycin to the water - per the directions. Especially if the eye is looking worse at all. You could also use Maracyn 2 with copper

 

[Trial by Fire]

The cloudy eye may be a simple injury and heal on its own or an increase in ammonia. You could have gone to copper level 2.25 but if fish is tolerating well, should be ok. The issue you likely encountered was mixing meds with theyjr copper which likely caused a huge reaction. In fair words, you overreacted and may have done more harm than good. Metro and kanaplex alone should Not be mixed and Metro must be applied precisely at .5gm in weight which is a very tiny amount. Focus is a binder and unnecessary for the issue at hand
The angel I can guess has increased breathing respirations. I would do a Good water change, reset copper at 2.25 for a full 30 days and add an air stone for added oxygen while monitoring water quality

The instructions on copper power indicates therapeutic level at 2.5. I did not dose metro or Kana…. I mixed it with frozen mysis as per the instructions….. one scoop per tablespoon of food. Metro, kana and focus as well as garlic went in the food. I fed the food once yesterday and all the fish ate so it would seem unlikely it’s a reaction The eye issue started 3 days ago. One issue I discovered was my nitrates were very high so I did a 50% water change this am and treated the new water with copper before adding. It’s possible that the eye issue was exacerbated by the high nitrates. I also read that angels can have neg reaction to copper.

So many variables and im grasping at straws

 

[vetteguy53081]

The instructions on copper power indicates therapeutic level at 2.5. I did not dose metro or Kana…. I mixed it with frozen mysis as per the instructions….. one scoop per tablespoon of food. Metro, kana and focus as well as garlic went in the food. I fed the food once yesterday and all the fish ate so it would seem unlikely it’s a reaction The eye issue started 3 days ago. One issue I discovered was my nitrates were very high so I did a 50% water change this am and treated the new water with copper before adding. It’s possible that the eye issue was exacerbated by the high nitrates. I also read that angels can have neg reaction to copper.

So many variables and im grasping at straws

metro makes the food taste bitter but unless you have positive symptoms especially internal, I would refrain from its use. Fish can tolerate high nitrates well unless above 50-60

 

[Trial by Fire]

metro makes the food taste bitter but unless you have positive symptoms especially internal, I would refrain from its use. Fish can tolerate high nitrates well unless above 50-60

My hanna Nitrate HR maxed out at 75 hence why I did the 50% water change.

My plan was to treat with copper for 30 days and then move to another tank with Prazi as I have not treated any of the fish for internal or external parasites beyond the copper.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My hanna Nitrate HR maxed out at 75 hence why I did the 50% water change.

My plan was to treat with copper for 30 days and then move to another tank with Prazi as I have not treated any of the fish for internal or external parasites beyond the copper.

Good plan

 

[Rene2br]

Make sure that there are no other parasites that could be causing the cloudy eye issue. Namely flukes. which are not affected by those concentrations of copper. Angles tolerate FW baths well (if parameters are equivalent, pH/temp). Hopefully that was done before placing the animals in QT. I've used many treatments for cloudy eye and the most effective was Maracyn 2. I'd consider removing the animal into another tank to treat. Also, if the animal is still eating, I would continue to medicate the food only reduce the dose. If it is an infection, it goes quick. If it is just damage, that can typically heal on its own and the medicated food should do the trick in keeping it form getting infected.

 

[Rene2br]

Flukes love to attach to a fish's eyes and they are almost impossible to see unless you are use to seeing them.

 

[Trial by Fire]

Make sure that there are no other parasites that could be causing the cloudy eye issue. Namely flukes. which are not affected by those concentrations of copper. Angles tolerate FW baths well (if parameters are equivalent, pH/temp). Hopefully that was done before placing the animals in QT. I've used many treatments for cloudy eye and the most effective was Maracyn 2. I'd consider removing the animal into another tank to treat. Also, if the animal is still eating, I would continue to medicate the food only reduce the dose. If it is an infection, it goes quick. If it is just damage, that can typically heal on its own and the medicated food should do the trick in keeping it form getting infected.

I didnt complete the freshwater dip prior to QT. I had all fish in QT for 10 days for observation prior to copper.

I competed a 50% water change this morning and then fed the tank. This was the first feeding that he didn’t eat. I feed twice a day. The fish is very shy and it’s possible it was stressed from the WC and didn’t eat.

If the fish continues to not eat I plan to remove from the copper , complete a freshwater dip
And place in a new take with just saltwater and prazi.

Any other suggestions/corrections are welcome

 

[threebuoys]

You may want to research fresh water dips a bit. Generally, they are advised to provide very temporary relief to the suffering fish. Rarely do they have any therapeutic value. In fact, sometimes the stress caused by the entire process of catching, dipping, and returning to the tank does more damage than good. Also, copper has not been shown to harm appetite.

I would stick with the 30-day copper at this point. If you believe flukes are likely, you can dose prazi simultaneously with copper and not have to reset the 30-day window. Just be sure you have extra aeration during the treatment since prazi can lower oxygen saturation.

 

[Trial by Fire]

Thanks for the insight.

It was a concern of mine that completing a dip now would be extra stress. I do understand it has little therapeutic value but is used mostly to rid fish of any parasites that are attached to them prior to moving on to QT. I have had this particular fish almost a month with no signs of anything until the eye issue.

I didnt know I could run prazi and copper simultaneously. That is a great help that I can .

I have read that prazi may suppress appetite . What I read regarding copper and angels is that may not tolerate it well and as a result may become come lethargic and stop eating. I am also using copper power and I did read they may tolerate cupramine better then copperpower.

I guess my main question would be if the fish continues to not eat and the eye doesn’t improve should it be removed from
The copper treatment and into another hospital tank to hopefully recover. And what , if any , meds should be used .

You may want to research fresh water dips a bit. Generally, they are advised to provide very temporary relief to the suffering fish. Rarely do they have any therapeutic value. In fact, sometimes the stress caused by the entire process of catching, dipping, and returning to the tank does more damage than good. Also, copper has not been shown to harm appetite.

I would stick with the 30-day copper at this point. If you believe flukes are likely, you can dose prazi simultaneously with copper and not have to reset the 30-day window. Just be sure you have extra aeration during the treatment since prazi can lower oxygen saturation.

 

[threebuoys]

We generally recommend Copper Safe / Copper Power over Cupramine because their form is more stable and easier to dose and manage.

A photo or video of the fish would be very useful to others trying to confirm the best solution.

I see moving to a different tank to be a step of last resort. I don't have confidence the appetite would return as a result.

Do you have any more history on the fish? Some angels are harvested by the use of cyanide. When that's the case, the fish is at risk fo 1 - 2 months after capture. I don't know if this species is harvested that way or not, nor how long the fish has been in captivity. I do know from personal experience that lethargy and loss of appetite occur a few days before the fish passes. I lost 2 coral beauties on two separate orders that I suspect had cyanide poisoning. Both died around 4 - 5 weeks in my possession. Really no way to diagnose this condition, but it does occur.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have an Arabian angel currently in QT with several others including a couple of wrasses. For the fists 10 days they were just under observation . Im currently running copper power at 2.5. Because I read that wrasses may not do well with copper I took 7 days to reach 2.5. I am currently in day 9 of the copper treatment .

Up until 3 days ago all fish were doing fine and eating well. I noticed that one of the angels eyes had a clear sack around it . Yesterday it looked a little cloudy so I mixed metro, kanaplex and focus on with mysis thinking it might be an infection. This morning the angel is hiding and not eating for the first time Looking for recommendations on where to go from here.

Salinity is 1.025
Ammonia is 0
Ph is 7.8
Alk is 9
Temp is 79
Copper is 2.5

Welcome to Reef2Reef.

While an eye injury is likely, this species is prone to Neobenedenia flukes and those can cause eye cloudiness. If you upload some clears pics/video, I might be able to tell.

Couple of observations; don’t take more than two days to get fish into full copper. That delay is old information from using ionic copper, not amine chelated copper. Delaying copper just allows protozoan diseases to get a head start on you.

Don’t mix kanamycin in food with focus unless you have a gram scale and calculate the dose properly - it can be toxic if overdosed.

Jay

 

[Trial by Fire]

We generally recommend Copper Safe / Copper Power over Cupramine because their form is more stable and easier to dose and manage.

A photo or video of the fish would be very useful to others trying to confirm the best solution.

I see moving to a different tank to be a step of last resort. I don't have confidence the appetite would return as a result.

Do you have any more history on the fish? Some angels are harvested by the use of cyanide. When that's the case, the fish is at risk fo 1 - 2 months after capture. I don't know if this species is harvested that way or not, nor how long the fish has been in captivity. I do know from personal experience that lethargy and loss of appetite occur a few days before the fish passes. I lost 2 coral beauties on two separate orders that I suspect had cyanide poisoning. Both died around 4 - 5 weeks in my possession. Really no way to diagnose this condition, but it does occur.

An update from this mornings feeding. The angel did attempt to feed this morning. It is swimming strong, no heavy breathing, lying on it side or any other indicator of stress. But now both eyes are cloudy and one appears more cloudy and larger than the other. My instinct tells me the fish should be in an antibiotic bath of something to address what appears to be an infection that may be caused by stress or poor water quality ( my nitrates were through the roof ( above 75 on the hanna) What seems strange to me is there are 7 other fish in qt and none of the others have eye issues.

I have prazi, formalin, Paraguard and nitrofurazone on hand

Any suggestions on where to go from here?

 

[threebuoys]

An update from this mornings feeding. The angel did attempt to feed this morning. It is swimming strong, no heavy breathing, lying on it side or any other indicator of stress. But now both eyes are cloudy and one appears more cloudy and larger than the other. My instinct tells me the fish should be in an antibiotic bath of something to address what appears to be an infection that may be caused by stress or poor water quality ( my nitrates were through the roof ( above 75 on the hanna) What seems strange to me is there are 7 other fish in qt and none of the others have eye issues.

I have prazi, formalin, Paraguard and nitrofurazone on hand

Any suggestions on where to go from here?

I really wish we could see a photo of the fish.

Injury or flukes remain the most likely culprits as @Jay Hemdal suggested.

What are the other fish in the QT and what size is the tank?

Have you dosed prazi yet?

 

[Trial by Fire]

I really wish we could see a photo of the fish.

Injury or flukes remain the most likely culprits as @Jay Hemdal suggested.

What are the other fish in the QT and what size is the tank?

Have you dosed prazi yet?

I will try to get a quality photo but so far it has proven difficult.

Now that the second eye is showing cloudiness I really don’t think it’s injury. I was thinking water quality but it’s the only fish with the issue. The hospital tank is 50g. I have 2 blue tangs, 2 Long finned banner fish, juvenile emperor angel, flame hawkfish, copperband and yellow flanked fairy wrasse.

I have not dosed prazi yet. Im still hesitant to do so as many recommend not to mix the two .
Yet a medicated bath seems to be the best solution

 

[threebuoys]

I will try to get a quality photo but so far it has proven difficult.

Now that the second eye is showing cloudiness I really don’t think it’s injury. I was thinking water quality but it’s the only fish with the issue. The hospital tank is 50g. I have 2 blue tangs, 2 Long finned banner fish, juvenile emperor angel, flame hawkfish, copperband and yellow flanked fairy wrasse.

I have not dosed prazi yet. Im still hesitant to do so as many recommend not to mix the two .
Yet a medicated bath seems to be the best solution

A medicated bath would only provide temporary relief to the fish and not a cure. The life cycle of most parasites, including flukes, is such that baths alone cannot eliminate the problem. Our protocol uses a two-step process (copper for 30 days then 2 or even 3 rounds of prazi, 8 days apart), HOWEVER, if flukes are known to be present and we have already started the 30-day copper treatment, we recommend dosing both simultaneously. Extra aeration is most important anytime prazi is used and certainly when both meds are used simultaneously.

If flukes are present in the tank, all of the fish are at risk. Flukes are obligate parasites and look for fish to which they can attach. The variety of fish you have in QT suggests aggression could be a problem. You may want to set up your phone to video the tank when you are not present to see if any aggression is captured. Tangs love to use their scapels when they are bothered by other fish.

 

[Trial by Fire]

A medicated bath would only provide temporary relief to the fish and not a cure. The life cycle of most parasites, including flukes, is such that baths alone cannot eliminate the problem. Our protocol uses a two-step process (copper for 30 days then 2 or even 3 rounds of prazi, 8 days apart), HOWEVER, if flukes are known to be present and we have already started the 30-day copper treatment, we recommend dosing both simultaneously. Extra aeration is most important anytime prazi is used and certainly when both meds are used simultaneously.

If flukes are present in the tank, all of the fish are at risk. Flukes are obligate parasites and look for fish to which they can attach. The variety of fish you have in QT suggests aggression could be a problem. You may want to set up your phone to video the tank when you are not present to see if any aggression is captured. Tangs love to use their scapels when they are bothered by other fish.

Thanks for the info. I will start prazi right away.
I have watched this tank at length and no aggression has been ever observed. But I will set up a live camera.

I have read adding prazi might cause an algae bloom. Any recommendations?