4 - 8 - 4 - 8 Lighting Cycles

[Saveafish]

How did we go from light cycles to water changes. Fully hijacked

 

[tehmadreefer]

Do a deep Google search and you'll find certain coral farms do in fact have two lighting schedules within 24hrs.

But you've made your mind up. Its cool. Keep on keeping on your methodology

Im merely presenting some research i stumbled across and giving it a go for my own Husbandry. and not asking the whole industry to flip upside down changing to two lighting cycles

This was done over a decade ago and probably wayyy before that, if in fact it did work again it would be commonplace...

nothing earth shattering happened back then and nothing will in modern days.

 

[Thales]

Thanks Thales,
I appreciate you and everyone here taking the time to share in the perspectives.

Pleasure!

One part i think that I need to clarify which for me is the linchpin to my inquiry is the filter sock. For me, the question of weather the filter sock is more efficient than water change and to what degree is what has me convinced that it should be the prevalent choice.

I think it is important to point out that they don't really do the same thing. Water changes dilute natsys and add trace elements while socks collect goo for removal. I don't really think it matters which someone uses as long as they understand the "why" of the method they use.

In your response I understood you to mean that if you ran filter socks you would change it daily, but I think that’s missing my point. Even if you were to change your sock daily or wait 10 days to change the sock, my point is that the export would be far greater (I’m guessing exponentially greater) then water change.

The stuff that collects in the sock continues to break down in the sock into stuff that the sock can no longer contain and goes back into the system. You also need to decide if you think that export is necessary or not.

You can wash the sock daily in the same 5 gallons of water for 10 days or wash the 10 day old sock in the 5 gallon and the results would be much more waste export then 5 gallons of water change is my point.

Maybe. That seems really hard to quantify - just because you are seeing more goo in the bucket doesn't speak to what happens to the stuff when the biological filtration breaks it down. They do different things, the sock is sequesters stuff for removal, optimally before it breaks down, where the water change lets the biological filtration process the stuff.

I’m not trying to sway anyone to do anything as I do not have any motive to do so economically or otherwise so please view this as an honest inquiry into the way we think about things in our hobby.

Absolutely. We are just talkin'.

So if we agree that filter sock or other mechanical filters can export sufficient waste to sustain a thriving reef then the next question would be it’s efficacy compared to water change. If we can agree that it’s more efficient then water change by a significant amount then my next question would be to analyze the monetary cost and time/effort required compared to water change. That’s something like you said Thales is different for everyone and must be a personal choice.

Rock.

 

[Pancake]

How did we go from light cycles to water changes. Fully hijacked

Arg! Captain, my sincere apologies!

 

[Thales]

How did we go from light cycles to water changes. Fully hijacked

What else do you want to talk about re the original post?

 

[Joedubyk]

This was done over a decade ago and probably wayyy before that, if in fact it did work again it would be commonplace...

nothing earth shattering happened back then and nothing will in modern days.

Agree. Sounds like the theory is get 2 max photo periods in a day, instead of one. I have a feeling if it worked any better than what we do now, it would already be common practice.. Though I'm open to seeing people give it a go and posting their results.

 

[ZoWhat]

OP here.

This post is a trainwreck

#1 i simply kicked off the subject of the 4848 lighting cycle as "hey seems to be an interesting topic backed by some VAGUE research"..... then the NatSayers all came out shooting any attempt of me posting very vague data. Shot diwn like a clay-pigeon with NaySayers sitting there with arms tightly crossed and a bitter beer face attitude. Hey, if you you DO NOT believe 4848 holds any value, thats your opinion. Honest what you do with your tank is your biz. Do waterchanges with 2%milk for all i care

#2 the thread got majorly hijacked by this run of ideas on waterchanges.

I wish i would have never wrote this post. I should have done 6mos of my iwn 6666 light cycle and reported my own findings

I never should have made any bold claims on loose vague data. I wont do that again unless i know all the BooBirds and Bah Hum Bugs would come out.

Ive asked R2R to lock the thread bc it should never have been written on vague unclear data that i, myself, dint fully understand reading Scientific papers

 

[Pancake]

Arg! Captain, my sincere apologies!

Also, going back to the OP, I think this discussion at least for me was valuable because even though we couldn’t come to anything conclusive about this type of light schedule and it’s effectiveness, it was good to hear from fellow reefers like s_tempest who have tested it for 3 years without any reportable negative impact to his tank. Personally I’m relieved and satisfied that this could be a viable schedule over a few years time and definitely feel more secure in my decision to continue with this type of schedule.

 

[MnFish1]

I couldn’t agree with you more on the no water change. I don’t understand it at all. I feel like that’s one of the things that majority do but don’t seem to have evidence supporting it besides anecdotally saying that it makes their tank better. I want to know why it’s necessary when to me it seems like an inefficient way to export nutrients. how is that for a tangent. Lol!

The reason some people do water changes - is that they use it to export nutrients - others use 'other ways' - algae, reactors, etc. There is no magic to any method. I remember when the Triton method 'came out' - where has it gone? Its basically an algae reactor - in a sump. With a bunch of chemicals one can buy - that they could buy for a lot less other places - oh - and of course ICP tests - that seem to result in more questions than answers (note tin levels, etc). This is not a diss against triton - but water changes do the same thing - probably cost the same - and are probably just as 'efficient' - when you take everything into account. JMO

 

[MnFish1]

OP here...

I orginally posted this as an "awareness " post for those who like to try new things after i stumbled across a few forum posts and then a couple of research studies and then a couple of web articles generally stating one might be able to get two growing cycles inside 24hrs.

Im.open minded and started 2weeks ago changing to 6on 6off 6on 6off. No issue with fish. They seem normally happy swimmimg about during the 6ON times. No reports on coral growth bc its only been 2 weeks.

I feel now the post turned from "hey lets look outside the box"..... to me having to DEFEND many aspects of a two light cycle day. Ppl wanting published papers from well known Marine Biologist Organizations.

Bottomline line is I'm NOT telling nor even shouting for ppl to go to a two light cycle day. The way you wanna run your tank is your own biz and really no concern of mine.

If you feel a 2 light cycle is B~S and im full of B~S, im not out to win you over. Its all 'whatever' brothers.... lol

Im trying the 6-6-6-6 cycles for 6 months to see if i can get my zoas/palys dominated tank to grow MORE polyps than ever before. I think its worth a shot.

If youre skeptical then stay-put on your Husbandry. Im not trying to influence anyone.

.

Seems like you are being overly sensitive. I think its an interesting idea. I doubt it would hurt fish or coral - just like clouds coming by on a sunny day would not hurt fish or coral. That said - from a scientific perspective - I cant see from an evolutionary perepective 'why it would work' or be 'helpful'. One question I had - which I guess you are tired of answering questions - is 'though there might be studies showing zoas do this or that after 4 hours or coral a opens most at 4 hours - it might very well be good for some corals and suboptimal for others. Please keep us informed as to your progress

 

[HB AL]

OP here.

This post is a trainwreck

#1 i simply kicked off the subject of the 4848 lighting cycle as "hey seems to be an interesting topic backed by some VAGUE research"..... then the NatSayers all came out shooting any attempt of me posting very vague data. Shot diwn like a clay-pigeon with NaySayers sitting there with arms tightly crossed and a bitter beer face attitude. Hey, if you you DO NOT believe 4848 holds any value, thats your opinion. Honest what you do with your tank is your biz. Do waterchanges with 2%milk for all i care

#2 the thread got majorly hijacked by this run of ideas on waterchanges.

I wish i would have never wrote this post. I should have done 6mos of my iwn 6666 light cycle and reported my own findings

I never should have made any bold claims on loose vague data. I wont do that again unless i know all the BooBirds and Bah Hum Bugs would come out.

Ive asked R2R to lock the thread bc it should never have been written on vague unclear data that i, myself, dint fully understand reading Scientific papers

To the op, I wouldn't get to worked up or bummed out about all the different posts concerning your post as it relates to a different type of light schedule or other unrelated topics that came up. I didnt really see anything bad said attacking you personally, just people asking for some kind of literature on the topic and if indeed there are public or vendors actually doing a study of this in a controlled environment. When I first clicked on the thread I was expecting to read about some personal experience or some articles from studies validating changing our light cycle for the benefit of the corals but unless I missed it (I honestly didnt read every post) I did not see a link or read a post with first hand knowledge to back up and validate your initial claim. Please dont take any of this personal from anyone, people are just looking for some form of validation of the idea. Now not trying to derail the thread but I haven't done a water change in over 2.5 years, change my filter socks only once a week and run my Kessils for 14 hours a day and my 1st hand knowledge has shown me that the way I do things definitely works, from the results I experience. I have a tank that's grossly overstocked with fish ( i feed them 10 to 14 Hikari cubes a day) and corals so I have a huge bioload but it works for me. It's not a gorgeous tank like alot of the pics I see people post but it's good enough for me. Now if your initial post about a different light period ends up being valid I will admit I would try it out immediately. Hers a cell phone pic from the other day just so you get an idea of what a cluster my tank is, and I dont even have a controller or doser, it's just me doing everything manually.

 

[ZoWhat]

Seems like you are being overly sensitive. I think its an interesting idea. I doubt it would hurt fish or coral - just like clouds coming by on a sunny day would not hurt fish or coral. That said - from a scientific perspective - I cant see from an evolutionary perepective 'why it would work' or be 'helpful'. One question I had - which I guess you are tired of answering questions - is 'though there might be studies showing zoas do this or that after 4 hours or coral a opens most at 4 hours - it might very well be good for some corals and suboptimal for others. Please keep us informed as to your progress

Yes i am overly sensitive and thanks for bringing that to my attn.

Zoas/palys i have.... most palys are at a good growth rate. BUT my zoas at a much slower growth rate.

I remember when i first start with zoas 15yrs ago.... most of my zoas would cover a rock in like 4mos. Now im lucky ti get a 10polyp zoa to have 15polyps in 4mos.

Soooooo i have a LOT of money invested in zoas and just FRUSTRATED that im not getting covered LRs in 4-6mos.

I see potential in this 2lightcycles/day as a potential answer which got my blood pumping

When i presented the idea and got reefers demanding highly visible posted scientific studies.....it fed my FRUSTRATION.

It is an interesting idea.... im trying it.... but i got too vocal over very vague studies over scientific papers i barely understand

 

[HB AL]

If it makes you feel better I cant get green star polyps to grow in my tank, they used to and I had a large area of them but they slowly died off and only a little remains. No idea why when everything else grows. Just one of those things I guess we will never be able to answer.

 

[Joedubyk]

Yes i am overly sensitive and thanks for bringing that to my attn.

Zoas/palys i have.... most palys are at a good growth rate. BUT my zoas at a much slower growth rate.

I remember when i first start with zoas 15yrs ago.... most of my zoas would cover a rock in like 4mos. Now im lucky ti get a 10polyp zoa to have 15polyps in 4mos.

Soooooo i have a LOT of money invested in zoas and just FRUSTRATED that im not getting covered LRs in 4-6mos.

I see potential in this 2lightcycles/day as a potential answer which got my blood pumping

When i presented the idea and got reefers demanding highly visible posted scientific studies.....it fed my FRUSTRATION.

It is an interesting idea.... im trying it.... but i got too vocal over very vague studies over scientific papers i barely understand

Do you only have softies? I honestly don't think lighting would be your issue.

 

[Phildago]

Hmmm, do any purpose built light controllers support this type of schedule? My bluefish doesn't seem to. Looks like I would have to go back to the old digital lamp controller.

Bluefish would work. You have to create a custom time schedules in "extras" and "custom schedule preview"

 

[Phildago]

Yes i am overly sensitive and thanks for bringing that to my attn.

Zoas/palys i have.... most palys are at a good growth rate. BUT my zoas at a much slower growth rate.

I remember when i first start with zoas 15yrs ago.... most of my zoas would cover a rock in like 4mos. Now im lucky ti get a 10polyp zoa to have 15polyps in 4mos.

Soooooo i have a LOT of money invested in zoas and just FRUSTRATED that im not getting covered LRs in 4-6mos.

I see potential in this 2lightcycles/day as a potential answer which got my blood pumping

When i presented the idea and got reefers demanding highly visible posted scientific studies.....it fed my FRUSTRATION.

It is an interesting idea.... im trying it.... but i got too vocal over very vague studies over scientific papers i barely understand

Its definitely an interesting idea. You don't need to do the research and have a final conclusion to post a discussion topic.

Maybe photosynthesis isn't the only part of the equation to be considering. It's possible that more photosynthesis won't lead to more growth because the growth process is the rate limiting factor.

 

[Emon]

Just wondering, if I was to follow 6/6/6/6, should I let my lights ramp up and down or for one 6hour period do whites and the nest 6 hours blues? I use coral lab ab+ , should I adjust lights to 6 hour intervals or follow something completely different? My tank is a mixed reef , I would like to try this experiment but don’t want to stress corals so any advice would be appreciated

 

[HB AL]

Just wondering, if I was to follow 6/6/6/6, should I let my lights ramp up and down or for one 6hour period do whites and the nest 6 hours blues? I use coral lab ab+ , should I adjust lights to 6 hour intervals or follow something completely different? My tank is a mixed reef , I would like to try this experiment but don’t want to stress corals so any advice would be appreciated

If everything is doing good I wouldn't mess with. You know the old saying... if I ain't broke dont fix it!

 

[ZoWhat]

Spent an hour finely inspecting my tank after following a 6-6-6-6 lighting sched

* most notable is some def signs of some dying off of some GHA where I have had two 3x3in spots in two locations. Gha went from green to now a yellowish color and is retreating

* most of the palys seem to be more open and opportunistic when the lights are on

* had a small 3rd Pink Ladies Paly pop up that I hadn't noticed until this morning

* pink cat eyes palys were b4 the 6666 had long stems reaching for light when my entire 390nm to 490nm lights were at 50% power for 10hrs... but stems have shortened with two 6hrs periods of 100% power

* zoas about the same. Good news is none of them have closed up and refuse to grab light. Biz as usual under this 6666 sched

* fish have adapted as I got up at 3am to grab a glass of milk and all fish were sleeping happily in their spots from midnight to 6am. From noon to 6pm lights OUT the fish are still awake BUTswimming about slowly calmly. During lights ON my tangs are swimming and exploring and picking on LR to a higher energy level. No signs of "fin flare" which tells me stress. Also seeing they seem to be more of a community. At 10hrs I was noticing a small amt of chasing and a light sched few tail swipes. Is it possible that they are getting along better only seeing each other for 6hrs at a time rather than a longer 10hr window? I do not know (?)

What does this all MEAN? I don't have a clue.

I'm liking the new sched and plan to continue it until smthg keenly makes me aware of slight problems.

I believe I'm into Week 2 maybe 3. I can remember.

I'll report again come Feb 1st. If I happen to forget to update you can kindly send me a PM asking how its going.


.

 

[HB AL]

Spent an hour finely inspecting my tank after following a 6-6-6-6 lighting sched

* most notable is some def signs of some dying off of some GHA where I have had two 3x3in spots in two locations. Gha went from green to now a yellowish color and is retreating

* most of the palys seem to be more open and opportunistic when the lights are on

* had a small 3rd Pink Ladies Paly pop up that I hadn't noticed until this morning

* pink cat eyes palys were b4 the 6666 had long stems reaching for light when my entire 390nm to 490nm lights were at 50% power for 10hrs... but stems have shortened with two 6hrs periods of 100% power

* zoas about the same. Good news is none of them have closed up and refuse to grab light. Biz as usual under this 6666 sched

* fish have adapted as I got up at 3am to grab a glass of milk and all fish were sleeping happily in their spots from midnight to 6am. From noon to 6pm lights OUT the fish are still awake BUTswimming about slowly calmly. During lights ON my tangs are swimming and exploring and picking on LR to a higher energy level. No signs of "fin flare" which tells me stress. Also seeing they seem to be more of a community. At 10hrs I was noticing a small amt of chasing and a light sched few tail swipes. Is it possible that they are getting along better only seeing each other for 6hrs at a time rather than a longer 10hr window? I do not know (?)

What does this all MEAN? I don't have a clue.

I'm liking the new sched and plan to continue it until smthg keenly makes me aware of slight problems.

I believe I'm into Week 2 maybe 3. I can remember.

I'll report again come Feb 1st. If I happen to forget to update you can kindly send me a PM asking how its going.


.

Sorry if I missed it but do you have any lps or Acropora in the tank, and if so any noticeable changes?