5.2 DKH/day demand. I MUST be doing something wrong!

Reefinmike

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Hey everybody, My tank's demand has been steadily spiraling out of control. It's gotten to the point where my DOS pumps are too noisy and I'm getting tired of mixing up two part. I feel I've covered all my bases but I'm looking for some additional suggestions for troubleshooting. Is there any way my corals are actually using 5.2dkh per day? Or is it just the "cost of doing business" to keep a proper pH? I've gone from 200ml a day to 550ml over the past 4 months.

I've had reef tanks since 04/05 but just recently REALLY started getting back into the hobby. the first two years getting back at it were ROUGH plagued by horrific algae, dinoflagellates and sudden mysterious "mini crashes" where acros STN'd and lost a clam. My current 150 gallon reef was set up 14 months ago and the dino continued to plague me despite having good luck with coral health. Maintaining a proper pH has always been an issue and I was suspicious that high CO2 levels were the root cause of all my troubles. October 1st I started a series of experiments inspired by Randy's article here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/alkalinity-stability-ph-stability-are-they-even-different.711768/ . My end goal was to maintain a stable alkalinity as well as a stable, proper pH. It's been an interesting journey and I learned a LOT in the process. I'm happy to say the results are better than I could've ever imagined. previously I was lucky to average an 8.00pH with up to a .5 daily swing and pH as low as 7.58. Now my pH is 8.3 +/- 0.06 and alkalinity 9.1DKH +/- 0.3. Corals and my clam are absolutely THRIVING with some growing over an inch per month. Dino is gone and the last time I was this happy with my reef was 2007.

My alkatronic tests very frequently and communicates to the apex. I toggle between Randy's standard soda ash solution and Lye solution based on the apex's pH. Above 8.25pH it doses soda ash. Below it doses Lye. Several throttle outlets fine tune the dosage. When I'm away for the weekend the system will automatically transition to dosing 95% soda ash with just 20-40ml lye. I recently added another dos for bicarbonate. Right now I'm just using it to dampen peak pH and buffer up alk with 45ml between 11p and midnight. I also added a CO2 meter. in the future I may develop a way to integrate everything. for now, it's nice to have a backup alkalinity solution on tap... I allowed my calcium and soda ash jug to go empty a few weeks ago while away. I was able to limp through with a little bit of lye dosing and cutting lights but in the end, I missed about 12 hours worth of dosing and alk dropped over 2DKH. I see that as a sign the demand is real however I may be mistaken. It's important to note that my Alkatronic tests a consistent .6-.7dkh higher than it actually is. Confirmed with many salifert kits, hanna and Randy's alkalinity reference solution. all of my alkalinity solutions dose in the sump, directly in front of a maxijet 1200. aside from a little bit of splashing, I NEVER see any signs of precipitation. Heaters and pumps are always squeaky clean and sand isn't clumping anywhere.

My calcium solution is double strength(1000g/ gallon) and I periodically adjust it to match half of the total soda ash/lye dosing. it doses directly to the display. I dosed 34-45ppm of magnesium last night followed by an additional manual dose of 10ppm calcium. This is the first time I've ever dosed magnesium. Normally water changes handle the demand but I've had to cut those out recently as nutrients have tanked. Today, test results mostly agreed with each other and rose as expected. It all seems to be within claimed tolerances with the exception of the 450ppm TM calcium reading... I don't like making changes too fast but I feel I need to do something... either lower my alkalinity or raise my magnesium even higher. This level of demand seems impossible but trial and error leads me to believe it's correct. Any ideas???

tests1.jpg tests.jpg tests2.jpg
 

Jonify

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Mine goes through about 1dKH a day and it's a tiny nano with frags. I know it's being used because my Ca also drops in ratio, and there is no observable abiotic precipitation any more (there used to be). With a tank your size, that would equate to 6.5dKH, so you're actually doing well? Your tank is gorgeous by the way.
 

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Mine goes through about 1dKH a day and it's a tiny nano with frags. I know it's being used because my Ca also drops in ratio, and there is no observable abiotic precipitation any more (there used to be). With a tank your size, that would equate to 6.5dKH, so you're actually doing well? Your tank is gorgeous by the way.

That makes me feel better about my nano as I'm losing close to the same per day. I have been chalking it up to coral, spirorbid worms, and coralline.
 
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Reefinmike

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Mine goes through about 1dKH a day and it's a tiny nano with frags. I know it's being used because my Ca also drops in ratio, and there is no observable abiotic precipitation any more (there used to be). With a tank your size, that would equate to 6.5dKH, so you're actually doing well? Your tank is gorgeous by the way.
Thank you! It's been a really tough road getting here but boy is it worth it in the end! none of my corals are special or have fancy names. I just love watching these stony corals grow and fight for space.

FWIW, DKH demand is an "across the board" measure and system volume is taken into account.
 

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Spieg

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5.2 dKH per day is pretty extreme. How is your Mg?
 

Jonify

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FWIW, DKH demand is an "across the board" measure and system volume is taken into account.
Could you talk about that a little more? Asking because dosing products like RS Foundation B requires you to multiply your tank volume by a factor of the initial 25G dosing instructions on the label to get the right dose. (I do not use this additive, but I have it in my arsenal.)
 
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Reefinmike

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Ca reactor
I considered it at one time but due to cost, complexity and the fact that I'd be literally pumping CO2 into a system that's already getting too much CO2- it's way too much trouble. The break even point cost wise would be many years down the road...

Mixing and refilling jugs is certainly getting annoying and sticking to standard concentrations means I need to start using 5 gallon buckets or mix more on a weekly basis. I haven't implemented it yet but I've mixed up a gallon of calcium solution near max solubility- 2500 grams CaCl2 dihydrate and 2650ml water for a gallon of solution. I could use a MUCH, much more concentrated solution of lye- about a maximum of 13x standard strength. Soda ash could be somewhere between 3.5-5x as concentrated but bicarbonate remains maxed out at a measly 50% strength... I worry about precipitation when going past standard strength alk solution so I'll probably keep them as is...
 
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Reefinmike

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Adding so much 2 part will eventually throw off your other elements. Something to consider. Ca reactors are not complex at really.
You are 100% correct here, especially with the amount I'm dosing. the true issue is from the ionic imbalance due to excessive sodium and chloride. I am dosing tropic marin part C at a revised strength(171g per gal) to match the alk solutions. It's everything in seawater minus calcium, chlorine, sodium and carbonate. it's NOT an approach to trace elements, it just turns all that excess table salt into balanced salt mix. Take it with a grain of salt but BRS did some ICP tests on calcium reactor effluent. they pretty much busted the idea of the reactors supplying trace elements.

Trust me, I've seriously considered the calcium reactor. dosing is just way easier to implement and the money I save could pay for monthly ICP tests...

so far, my alkatronic waste water has done a great job at mitigating salinity rise from two part.
 
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Reefinmike

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Could you talk about that a little more? Asking because dosing products like RS Foundation B requires you to multiply your tank volume by a factor of the initial 25G dosing instructions on the label to get the right dose. (I do not use this additive, but I have it in my arsenal.)
You'll commonly see that with many of the pretty reef labeled additives like Tropic marin, red sea, ESV, etc. 100L is a common standard equal to 26.4 us gallons.. most just round it down to 25 to make it easier on the end user. you'll see something like "50ml will raise 100L(26.4gal) 1DKH. add the same dose to a 200L system and it only goes up .5dkh. 400L system?- 0.25DKH.

the red sea system is a bit confusing. I've looked at it before and believe one of the two(cal/alk) are significantly more concentrated than the other. I like working with standard generic bulk chems and Randy Holmes-farley's recipies... they've never led me astray and it's the industry standard when discussing, comparing demand.
 

JCOLE

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What salt are you using? Also, is your salinity probe accurate? That is a high number.
 
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Reefinmike

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What salt are you using? Also, is your salinity probe accurate? That is a high number.
IORC however it's been a couple months since I've ceased all water changes as nutrients tanked. I'm trying... I literally have no nutrient export with the exception of coral growth and a floss pad I change once a week. No refugium, I removed my skimmer and I'm feeding as many pellets as my fish can eat- 8 times a day.

Ignore the salinity probe reading, I show my true reading in the original post pictures... 1.0264sg on the dot. using a tropic marin precision glass hydrometer, verified using a precision weighed reference solution and backed up with a second hydrometer... yes, I love that thing so much I bought a second... nothing else comes close!
 

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Going to offer some tough opinions here, but I'm trying to help the OP.

You do not need a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors have their own problems, and typically high consumption tanks steer reactor owners over to two part dosing, Not vice versa

The OP along with many of the responders is making two part dosing more complicated than it has to be. If you're sick of dosing and mixing two parts then increase the saturation of your part A and B - a lot. You can make it a cloudy slurry if you want. Just make sure it's circulated in their holding jugs. Cheap SunSun pumps - Amazon - done. Move up to bigger 2.5 or 5 gallon jugs, but increase the amount of calcium chloride and sodium bicarb saturation first. It's the actual dry amount of sodium bicarb and calcium chloride you are adding that matter , not the water. So, stop adding so much water by increasing your saturation mix.

With a lot of two part dosing, yes, your salinity will gradually rise. Big deal. Once a month you read salinity, take out some tankwater and replace it fresh. Ohhhhhhhh....SOOOOOOOOO complicated :) Up there with making a tray of ice cubes or boiling some eggs. You need BRS permission to do this obviously because they are the Oracle of reefing and this will put your dilithium crystal and unobtanium trace element ratio out of whack.

What exactly are the industry agreed upon trace element (minor and major) categories again? Oh wait....there is no standard. Just three guys wearing baseball caps at BRS who now sell sea salt minus salt to get you to buy trace elements that no reef chemist can come to concensus if you need it or not. Please...list for me the standardized list of minor and major trace elements agreed upon by all the salt mix makers. Still waiting..... We do realize there are SPS tanks with a lot heavier growth than the OP's where they never do water changes or add trace elements. Ok then.

Magnesium will track calcium consumption by a pretty defined ratio. Calcium consumption may not track alk consumption. You can pretty much add magnesium according to calcium up take. Ratio is 10:1 calcium to mag...or something like that. I rarely test mag anymore because I follow this rule and it's almost spot on when I do test.

Do not let your phosphate and nitrate bottom out. Nitrate is easy to dose in the form of sodium nitrate, and it's cheap. Plus, you don't have to dose much and it lasts awhile. Just enough to keep nitrate at around 5ppm or so. Phosphate should never go below .03. Phosphate is also cheap and easy dose.

Last, if you are getting annoyed at high two uptake don't have a tank full of green slimers, orange monti caps and blue digipora, which consequently are among the 3 fastest growing SPS in existence. If it were my tank, and it's obviously not, I would cut out at least half the blue digi, orange cap, and keep the slimer acro in his place. I would add some more diverse acropora in their spots and mix things up a bit.
 
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Reefinmike

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Going to offer some tough opinions here, but I'm trying to help the OP.

You do not need a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors have their own problems, and typically high consumption tanks steer reactor owners over to two part dosing, Not vice versa

The OP along with many of the responders is making two part dosing more complicated than it has to be. If you're sick of dosing and mixing two parts then increase the saturation of your part A and B - a lot. You can make it a cloudy slurry if you want. Just make sure it's circulated in their holding jugs. Cheap SunSun pumps - Amazon - done. Move up to bigger 2.5 or 5 gallon jugs, but increase the amount of calcium chloride and sodium bicarb saturation first. It's the actual dry amount of sodium bicarb and calcium chloride you are adding that matter , not the water. So, stop adding so much water by increasing your saturation mix.

With a lot of two part dosing, yes, your salinity will gradually rise. Big deal. Once a month you read salinity, take out some tankwater and replace it fresh. Ohhhhhhhh....SOOOOOOOOO complicated :) Up there with making a tray of ice cubes or boiling some eggs. You need BRS permission to do this obviously because they are the Oracle of reefing and this will put your dilithium crystal and unobtanium trace element ratio out of whack.

What exactly are the industry agreed upon trace element (minor and major) categories again? Oh wait....there is no standard. Just three guys wearing baseball caps at BRS who now sell sea salt minus salt to get you to buy trace elements that no reef chemist can come to concensus if you need it or not. Please...list for me the standardized list of minor and major trace elements agreed upon by all the salt mix makers. Still waiting..... We do realize there are SPS tanks with a lot heavier growth than the OP's where they never do water changes or add trace elements. Ok then.

Magnesium will track calcium consumption by a pretty defined ratio. Calcium consumption may not track alk consumption. You can pretty much add magnesium according to calcium up take. Ratio is 10:1 calcium to mag...or something like that. I rarely test mag anymore because I follow this rule and it's almost spot on when I do test.

Do not let your phosphate and nitrate bottom out. Nitrate is easy to dose in the form of sodium nitrate, and it's cheap. Plus, you don't have to dose much and it lasts awhile. Just enough to keep nitrate at around 5ppm or so. Phosphate should never go below .03. Phosphate is also cheap and easy dose.

Last, if you are getting annoyed at high two uptake don't have a tank full of green slimers, orange monti caps and blue digipora, which consequently are among the 3 fastest growing SPS in existence. If it were my tank, and it's obviously not, I would cut out at least half the blue digi, orange cap, and keep the slimer acro in his place. I would add some more diverse acropora in their spots and mix things up a bit.
Spot on reply! I probably over stated it, I'm not absolutely bogged down and disheartened by the amount of two part mixing I have to do. My biggest concern is- is this kind of demand actually possible? is there some glaring issue I'm not addressing? I mentioned in a later post that I have started toying around with the idea of super concentrated solutions. I've mixed up 5x strength Calcium chloride dihydrate- 2500 grams, 2650ml rodi for a total 1 gallon volume. I believe I could go a little higher, I did the math and it's just under 6 times maximum strength... 5x is a nice "even" number for now. I know that my Lye solution could be significantly more concentrated as I'm only at 7.5% now. Soda ash is a bit of a gray area, it seems that max solubility will let me get to 3.5-5 times strength depending on temperature. It generates heat so could I go to 5X and will it stay in solution once it cools down?? the part C is another gray area, I'll call Lou monday and get his opinion. I guess I'm just being picky but it'd be nice to have concentrations at "even" strengths across the board- mainly to make periodically adjusting my calcium dose easier. my alk dose is automated through the tronic. I believe you are correct on the mag dose, consumption is generally 1DKH:7ppmCal:0.7ppm mag. I'll probably start needing to dose mag now that I'm not doing water changes. I guess I need to do some more research, sit down and write up a game plan for all my solutions. it seems that keeping cal, alk and mag solutions at 3.33x standard strength would be a good common ground.

I actually have some loudwolf trisodium phosphate and sodium nitrate. I used it a couple years ago when I was having major issues of coral health, algae growth and undetectable nutes. now that my system is more well rounded, algae is a non issue and I know I CAN get detectable levels- I'll have to try again. previously doses would vanish within 18 hours.

And yes, you are correct about the corals. I'm moving in a couple months and will be setting up a "5 year system" with mostly acropora, specifically slow growers. I have admittedly let things go wild in this tank. the past 4 months have been an experiment and I realize I'm at the bleeding edge.

Lastly, funny comments about the carnival barkers at BRS!!! I've really lost my respect for that company over the last couple years. they push a bunch of gimmicky junk(hanna) and methods that'll send the kool aid drinkers chasing their tail. "NSA"... COME ON! that is so absurd. just to clarify, I am NOT and never have been concerned about trace elements. I am dosing tropic marin part C... it "has" trace elements in it but it is NOT an approach to trace elements. it simply balances the excessive sodium and chloride salts from two part. I've been using it for a couple years now- before brs started pushing it, back when they falsely claimed it as a "trace" mineral approach...
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Adding so much 2 part will eventually throw off your other elements. Something to consider. Ca reactors are not complex at really.

If you use a balanced two part such as ESV B-ionic or use the Part C from Tropic Marin, there will be no imbalance.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hey everybody, My tank's demand has been steadily spiraling out of control. It's gotten to the point where my DOS pumps are too noisy and I'm getting tired of mixing up two part. I feel I've covered all my bases but I'm looking for some additional suggestions for troubleshooting. Is there any way my corals are actually using 5.2dkh per day? Or is it just the "cost of doing business" to keep a proper pH? I've gone from 200ml a day to 550ml over the past 4 months.

I've had reef tanks since 04/05 but just recently REALLY started getting back into the hobby. the first two years getting back at it were ROUGH plagued by horrific algae, dinoflagellates and sudden mysterious "mini crashes" where acros STN'd and lost a clam. My current 150 gallon reef was set up 14 months ago and the dino continued to plague me despite having good luck with coral health. Maintaining a proper pH has always been an issue and I was suspicious that high CO2 levels were the root cause of all my troubles. October 1st I started a series of experiments inspired by Randy's article here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/alkalinity-stability-ph-stability-are-they-even-different.711768/ . My end goal was to maintain a stable alkalinity as well as a stable, proper pH. It's been an interesting journey and I learned a LOT in the process. I'm happy to say the results are better than I could've ever imagined. previously I was lucky to average an 8.00pH with up to a .5 daily swing and pH as low as 7.58. Now my pH is 8.3 +/- 0.06 and alkalinity 9.1DKH +/- 0.3. Corals and my clam are absolutely THRIVING with some growing over an inch per month. Dino is gone and the last time I was this happy with my reef was 2007.

My alkatronic tests very frequently and communicates to the apex. I toggle between Randy's standard soda ash solution and Lye solution based on the apex's pH. Above 8.25pH it doses soda ash. Below it doses Lye. Several throttle outlets fine tune the dosage. When I'm away for the weekend the system will automatically transition to dosing 95% soda ash with just 20-40ml lye. I recently added another dos for bicarbonate. Right now I'm just using it to dampen peak pH and buffer up alk with 45ml between 11p and midnight. I also added a CO2 meter. in the future I may develop a way to integrate everything. for now, it's nice to have a backup alkalinity solution on tap... I allowed my calcium and soda ash jug to go empty a few weeks ago while away. I was able to limp through with a little bit of lye dosing and cutting lights but in the end, I missed about 12 hours worth of dosing and alk dropped over 2DKH. I see that as a sign the demand is real however I may be mistaken. It's important to note that my Alkatronic tests a consistent .6-.7dkh higher than it actually is. Confirmed with many salifert kits, hanna and Randy's alkalinity reference solution. all of my alkalinity solutions dose in the sump, directly in front of a maxijet 1200. aside from a little bit of splashing, I NEVER see any signs of precipitation. Heaters and pumps are always squeaky clean and sand isn't clumping anywhere.

My calcium solution is double strength(1000g/ gallon) and I periodically adjust it to match half of the total soda ash/lye dosing. it doses directly to the display. I dosed 34-45ppm of magnesium last night followed by an additional manual dose of 10ppm calcium. This is the first time I've ever dosed magnesium. Normally water changes handle the demand but I've had to cut those out recently as nutrients have tanked. Today, test results mostly agreed with each other and rose as expected. It all seems to be within claimed tolerances with the exception of the 450ppm TM calcium reading... I don't like making changes too fast but I feel I need to do something... either lower my alkalinity or raise my magnesium even higher. This level of demand seems impossible but trial and error leads me to believe it's correct. Any ideas???

tests1.jpg tests.jpg tests2.jpg

Are you seeing evidence of precipitation such as sand hardening or precipitation where the high pH additives are added?

The high pH will promote that process.
 

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