50% Liquid NaOH/Caustic Soda for Dosing

[shrimpnreefdude]

It has been a long time since I've been on R2R unfortunately. I pop in an out often to read up on specific stuff. I quickly leave though, otherwise I get consumed and distracted too easily. LOL

Also, with the launch of the new app, this post counts as a bonus entry. So that's a plus!

Well, now I need some help trying to figure out a problem I cannot seem to find the answer to. Or I am overthinking this. Or I am searching the wrong way. I think I have a basic plan moving forward, but I would really like some wisdom and guidance to hone my approach.

I have access to 50% liquid sodium hydroxide that I would like to utilize for a pH boost with the added benefit of improved alk. My plan was to dilute it, but I am not sure how much. The plan was to dose it directly in the drain area of the sump. 50% on it's own tends to precipitate quickly and harden. So my initial thought was to start mixing it into my ATO reservoir. But I worry that it would end up being too concentrated and could cause serious issues if too much is added based only on evaporation.

The other idea was to make a specific dilution, say 10% and then dose based on a pH range. But how would I calculate the amount of Alk I would also be dosing?

I have seen many posts about mixing powdered sodium hydroxide, but this is an already mixed solution used for water treatment. It comes at a S.G. of 1.50 so I am not if that will help with calculations.

I am currently dosing this system with AFR because it is easy. But it's not the long term choice. I would like to hear how others may approach this. It is a group of lowboys tied into a large 100+ gal sump.

Thought was DIY 3 part - Ca, Alk (NaOH solution), and Mg (as-needed).

TIA for your help. Even if you don’t have a direct answer but have an idea, please chime in.

This system is running on an Apex without a Trident, so no automatic Alk testing unfortunately. I really need to dive into the Apex threads and get some schooling.

Me and @a.little.hypertonic with the system in question behind us. Empty tank will be tied in soon.

 

[Miami Reef]

This is the recipe for sodium hydroxide with the Balling Method which maintains ionic balance:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-balling-method-recipe.1098905/
There are a few precautions when using sodium hydroxide:

• Caustic. Dangerous if entered on skin/eyes.
• Dosing lines and containers need to be HDPE, LDPE, or polypropylene.
• Needs to be added slowly in a high flow area to prevent precipitation.

If you really want to go with lye, I recommend dropping the AFR and go all in with the Balling Method.

I use lye, and I don’t think I’d ever use anything else, but it’s an advanced additive.

All For Reef is much easier and simpler.

 

[Miami Reef]

You can’t just use sodium hydroxide not the other parts; it’s incomplete for coral calcification and seawater ions.

Lye is an alk additive.

A 50% lye solution is a mixture of 50% sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and 50% water by weight. So 100 g of the solution has 50 g of pure NaOH.

The Balling recipe requires 283 g NaOH per gallon, so you’d need 566 g of your stock solution in a gallon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I definitely would dilute the 50% solution significantly before use.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

You can’t just use sodium hydroxide not the other parts; it’s incomplete for coral calcification and seawater ions.

Lye is an alk additive.

So I couldn't use it now with the AFR to manually make adjustments for Alk? I forgot to ask that question about alk adjustments too. Is it because of the other alk components in AFR to steer clear of this?

If you really want to go with lye, I recommend dropping the AFR and go all in with the Balling Method.

Long term plan was to get away from AFR anyway. I was initially thinking CaRx and kalkwasser. But I started looking at the Balling and bolus methodology too, and that seems to be where I've been leaning. The AFR for now is because, like you said easy and providing me with a crutch until I make a decision.

I definitely would dilute the 50% solution significantly before use.

Yeah, I figured I would have to. Would make it much easier for the pumps and overall safety. I was really hoping I could utilize this in some capacity. I diluted it down by half and tried it to kill an aiptasia and that worked. I tried it at first at full 50% and that immediately started to precipitate with the flow turn off. I didn't like seeing little death balls floating around.

Thanks again to you both for your responses. I lean on both of you often when I come lurking. My ignorance with the ionic balance is where I am definitely lacking with how I could utilize this. It may be just easiest to switch to balling method and call it a day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do you find you need to make frequent alk corrections? Just dosing more AFR should mostly eliminate that.

Small alk corrections on an infrequent basis won’t help pH appreciably, but it’s ok to do it.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Do you find you need to make frequent alk corrections? Just dosing more AFR should mostly eliminate that.

ATM, I can get by with AFR in most of my systems, even this one. It's just not dialed in with consumption rates. I'm high in CA but Alk consumption is rising. I recently had to dose a bunch of Mg as it was very low. Used one of your recipes for that. Thank you btw.

Small alk corrections on an infrequent basis won’t help pH appreciably, but it’s ok to do it.

Got it. Ideally, I was hoping to find a way to utilize this solution to maintain/boost my pH whilst giving me some additional alk. That's where my brain was at. But if I were to do that on a constant basis throughout the day on a doser, that's where the confusion of the ionic balance comes in for me. How bad would I skew everything else.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Does anyone dose AFR and also the mixed Sodium Hydroxide solution in the recipes you guys have posted before? If I choose to not use this solution, would it be easiest to just use the recipe you already have? My brain is not mathing the correct way to dilute this solution to prepare a dosing solution.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

You can’t just use sodium hydroxide not the other parts; it’s incomplete for coral calcification and seawater ions.

Lye is an alk additive.

A 50% lye solution is a mixture of 50% sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and 50% water by weight. So 100 g of the solution has 50 g of pure NaOH.

The Balling recipe requires 283 g NaOH per gallon, so you’d need 566 g of your stock solution in a gallon.

If I make the solution as you've suggested (thanks btw) at the 566g of 50% NaOH, you are saying to get away from the AFR, and just start dosing Ca separately. To introduce the other stuff found in AFR, would I just get the TM A & K bottles?

I recently picked up a traces bottle from Coral Hub U.S. He calls the product Forbidden Elixir. He's a local guy to me and supporter/sponsor or our regional reef club. Could I use this instead of the TM stuff? I haven't researched the TM A&K enough to know what it has and what it doesn’t. The Forbidden Elixir has the following.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Ok... I diluted my solution. I calculated 149g/L (566 g/gal ÷ 3.785 L/gal) which turned out to be dang near 100mL. Would that mean I add that to an entire liter of RODI? Or would I add the 100mL of solution to 900mL of RODI to make 1L? I ended up adding it to 1L. But I thought about this after I had already mixed it.

Can you gents please guide me in the math to determine the alkalinity dosage rates for this solution? I'd like to dose x amount per day to maintain consumption. I also assume I need to watch my pH carefully and set my DOS to off if it exceeds a certain pH reading, correct?

 

[Miami Reef]

Or would I add the 100mL of solution to 900mL of RODI to make 1L? I ended up adding it to 1L. But I thought about this after I had already mixed it.

The difference is small and not important, but the standard recipe and the way chemists do it is the first option:

Add the 149 g to the container and top it off with water to reach a total volume of one L.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Or would I add the 100mL of solution to 900mL of RODI to make 1L? I ended up adding it to 1L. But I thought about this after I had already mixed it.

The difference is small and not important, but the standard recipe and the way chemists do it is the first option:

Add the 149 g to the container and top it off with water to reach a total volume of one L.

Thank you.

Wouldn't I want to add it to the total water? I thought adding stuff to water is a frowned upon.

Also... any advice on what is the best approach to calculate the amount of alkalinity in that solution. I am thinking I can go off the amounts, I believe you have posted for the powdered lye right? The solution I made is nearly equal to the powdered version, no?

 

[Miami Reef]

Wouldn't I want to add it to the total water? I thought adding stuff to water is a frowned upon.

Fill the container about 50% full. Add the solution, then top off with water. Same result.

Select Randy Recipe 1 in the alk section of this calculator:

https://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalcnew.html

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Does anyone dose AFR and also the mixed Sodium Hydroxide solution in the recipes you guys have posted before? If I choose to not use this solution, would it be easiest to just use the recipe you already have? My brain is not mathing the correct way to dilute this solution to prepare a dosing solution.

I see no reason to not use the already posted recipe.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Does anyone dose AFR and also the mixed Sodium Hydroxide solution in the recipes you guys have posted before? If I choose to not use this solution, would it be easiest to just use the recipe you already have? My brain is not mathing the correct way to dilute this solution to prepare a dosing solution.

I see no reason to not use the already posted recipe.

You mean the powdered version correct? I have access to this liquid solution, which gets thrown away at select times throughout the month. Probably 1-3L of it gets thrown away. Since it is the same chemical, simply already diluted, I was trying to calculate what you've done from the powdered version and come up with the approach for the correct conversion to utilize this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You mean the powdered version correct? I have access to this liquid solution, which gets thrown away at select times throughout the month. Probably 1-3L of it gets thrown away. Since it is the same chemical, simply already diluted, I was trying to calculate what you've done from the powdered version and come up with the approach for the correct conversion to utilize this.

Sorry, I’m not sure who you are directing this to or what exactly you are asking.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

You mean the powdered version correct? I have access to this liquid solution, which gets thrown away at select times throughout the month. Probably 1-3L of it gets thrown away. Since it is the same chemical, simply already diluted, I was trying to calculate what you've done from the powdered version and come up with the approach for the correct conversion to utilize this.

Sorry, I’m not sure who you are directing this to or what exactly you are asking.

I was responding to your reply to me asking why not use your original recipe. That references mixing the sodium hydroxide powder to make a solution. That is what I understood your reply to mean. Lol Sorry for the confusion.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

You mean the powdered version correct? I have access to this liquid solution, which gets thrown away at select times throughout the month. Probably 1-3L of it gets thrown away. Since it is the same chemical, simply already diluted, I was trying to calculate what you've done from the powdered version and come up with the approach for the correct conversion to utilize this.

Sorry, I’m not sure who you are directing this to or what exactly you are asking.

So let me rephrase my question. How does the 50% NaOH liquid solution I have, compare to your recipe? I am trying to ensure I get it as close to that recipe as I can to take advantage of the calculaters you have referenced in multiple posts. and @Miami Reef kindly shared again here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So let me rephrase my question. How does the 50% NaOH liquid solution I have, compare to your recipe? I am trying to ensure I get it as close to that recipe as I can to take advantage of the calculaters you have referenced in multiple posts. and @Miami Reef kindly shared again here.

My recommendation is to make my recipe, but since you are using a 50% solution, instead of 100% solids, use twice as much mass as my recipe. Then it will be identical, and you can use calculators for dosing.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

My recommendation is to make my recipe,

Understood. I would agree that would be the sensible thing to do since you have already figured it out with readily available ingredients for most of us.

but since you are using a 50% solution, instead of 100% solids, use twice as much mass as my recipe. Then it will be identical, and you can use calculators for dosing.

Thank you for the confirmation. Since this is something that is being thrown away, I wanted to utilize it.

I believe that is the weight conversion that @Miami Reef gave me here too. I have not had a chance to go back and worth through the math of the recipe and this solution. I appreciate you guys helping me get through the thought process for this.