A discussion on immunity

[Brew12]

I had been putting together some thoughts for a private conversation but now feel they belong here for public discussion. Please feel free to shred away, I have thick skin!

In 1992 Burgess conducted tests to determine the "typical" number of trophonts fish could be exposed to and survive as long as exposure was not continued. To get his fish to acquire their immunity, he subjected them to 2 different known levels of trophonts. One lower level and one higher level, but below the lethal level. After the initial exposure, he prevented re-exposure for 14 days. He then re-exposed them to the same number of trophonts as earlier and again prevented re-exposure. They then exposed the fish to a known lethal number of trophonts and measured the results. What he found was that for the fish with the initial lower level of exposure, the fish had acquired a limited immunity. The fish exposed to the higher level had a very strong immunity. They verified the immunity by tracking the reproduction rate of the parasite.

Additional testing on fish immunity was done in 1997. For this testing they opted to expose the fish to a lethal level of trophonts but then to treat the fish with copper to prevent death. This testing showed that it took 5 cycles of exposure and treatment for the fish to reliably develop a strong enough immunity to survive what would otherwise be a lethal exposure.

The third method used to develop a natural immunity in studies I have seen is exactly what happens in nature. They get a low level of exposure over a long period of time where the parasite cannot build up to a lethal level.

The 1992 method used by Burgess is obviously well beyond the capability of someone at the hobbyist level. I can't imagine a hobbyist successfully carrying 5 exposures and copper treatments so a new fish will develop an immunity. That leaves us with the 3rd method.

I have seen 2 methods of successfully maintaining reduced parasite levels to prevent what would otherwise lead to a potential lethal exposure. Those 2 methods involve killing free swimming parasites using either UV or Ozone. These are far and away the most practical options for a hobbyist to control parasites without elimination. I think this, along with proper nutrition, are why @Paul B has such amazing success. He can add a fish with pretty much any disease into his tank and if it makes it more than 5 days it's odds of living a long and healthy life afterward should be very high. In fact, it would probably benefit him to regularly add sick fish to his tank to help maintain the low level of exposure that his fish need to not lose their immunity after around 6 months of non exposure.

I guess there is a 4th option. Buying a fish and hoping it was immune before you got it and that it kept its immunity throughout its travels. I've seen reference to studies showing that a fish can lose its natural immunity in as little as a week if exposed to too much stress so I would consider this unreliable. It also wouldn't apply to aqua cultured fish.

The more thought I give to this, the more I think that the best method for keeping fish would involve running either a UV filter or ozone generator. I would love to see some formal studies done on this.

If a hobbyist doesn't go this route, I need to support the full QT and treatment route.

 

[Paul B]

The third method used to develop a natural immunity in studies I have seen is exactly what happens in nature. They get a low level of exposure over a long period of time where the parasite cannot build up to a lethal level.

I remember very well the Burgess studies as I was keeping salt water fish long before that and I studied his research. (some of which I disagreed with).
Of course I use the method above and have been for decades. I believe there is always a low level of parasites living in my tank, reproducing and doing whatever parasites do in their spare time which I imagine is hunting for fish. I believe they find my fish and eat some slime before "jumping" off or being kicked off by the fishes immune system. The parasite goes on to reproduce and start over again.

In fact, it would probably benefit him (Paul B) to regularly add sick fish to his tank to help maintain the low level of exposure that his fish need to not lose their immunity after around 6 months of non exposure.

I actually do this and if I see some parasites on a fish in a store, it doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes I can say to the store owner: OMG that fish has parasites so I think I should get it at a discount, and sometimes I do.
We are thinking this fish keeping all wrong. We should start thinking that parasites "could" be our friend, like algae could be our friend if used correctly. Remember parasites have been here as long as the fish and they live right along with them just as we have parasites and bacteria on and in us. Fish constantly eat live fish along with the parasites on those fish.
"But", for the Burgess study and any theory on fish health to work, the fish need to be in excellent condition and IMO feeding sterile foods like almost anything commercially available and anything dry won't do it alone.
We need to feed our fish a supply of living bacteria every day. I use worms and clams but I would imagine (and am not sure) that some form of pro biotics may work. I say "may" because I am not an expert on pro biotics but I think they are devoid of what we would call "harmful organisms". I have a problem with that because for a fish to become immune from a "harmful organism", it needs to be subjected to those harmful organisms and not just any pro biotic will suffice. This is conjecture on my part of course as I am not the God of fish diseases.
When I started to keep fresh water fish and tried to breed them, the first thing any book stated was to feed the fish live food. I did this but at the time I didn't realize that it wasn't just the fact that the food was live, but the bacteria inside the food was live.
I realize this is against everything we will read in this hobby, but that is the way it is. Healthy, immune fish need the proper food. Just look at what they eat in the sea. It is all whole and all live and has all the bacteria and parasites in it as no one sterilizes or freeze dries their food in the sea.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDCaXm74Uu9aiTwnVub3xOg

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I had been putting together some thoughts for a private conversation but now feel they belong here for public discussion. Please feel free to shred away, I have thick skin!

In 1992 Burgess conducted tests to determine the "typical" number of trophonts fish could be exposed to and survive as long as exposure was not continued. To get his fish to acquire their immunity, he subjected them to 2 different known levels of trophonts. One lower level and one higher level, but below the lethal level. After the initial exposure, he prevented re-exposure for 14 days. He then re-exposed them to the same number of trophonts as earlier and again prevented re-exposure. They then exposed the fish to a known lethal number of trophonts and measured the results. What he found was that for the fish with the initial lower level of exposure, the fish had acquired a limited immunity. The fish exposed to the higher level had a very strong immunity. They verified the immunity by tracking the reproduction rate of the parasite.

Additional testing on fish immunity was done in 1997. For this testing they opted to expose the fish to a lethal level of trophonts but then to treat the fish with copper to prevent death. This testing showed that it took 5 cycles of exposure and treatment for the fish to reliably develop a strong enough immunity to survive what would otherwise be a lethal exposure.

The third method used to develop a natural immunity in studies I have seen is exactly what happens in nature. They get a low level of exposure over a long period of time where the parasite cannot build up to a lethal level.

The 1992 method used by Burgess is obviously well beyond the capability of someone at the hobbyist level. I can't imagine a hobbyist successfully carrying 5 exposures and copper treatments so a new fish will develop an immunity. That leaves us with the 3rd method.

I have seen 2 methods of successfully maintaining reduced parasite levels to prevent what would otherwise lead to a potential lethal exposure. Those 2 methods involve killing free swimming parasites using either UV or Ozone. These are far and away the most practical options for a hobbyist to control parasites without elimination. I think this, along with proper nutrition, are why @Paul B has such amazing success. He can add a fish with pretty much any disease into his tank and if it makes it more than 5 days it's odds of living a long and healthy life afterward should be very high. In fact, it would probably benefit him to regularly add sick fish to his tank to help maintain the low level of exposure that his fish need to not lose their immunity after around 6 months of non exposure.

I guess there is a 4th option. Buying a fish and hoping it was immune before you got it and that it kept its immunity throughout its travels. I've seen reference to studies showing that a fish can lose its natural immunity in as little as a week if exposed to too much stress so I would consider this unreliable. It also wouldn't apply to aqua cultured fish.

The more thought I give to this, the more I think that the best method for keeping fish would involve running either a UV filter or ozone generator. I would love to see some formal studies done on this.

If a hobbyist doesn't go this route, I need to support the full QT and treatment route.

Nice.

Those 2 methods involve killing free swimming parasites using either UV or Ozone. These are far and away the most practical options for a hobbyist to control parasites without elimination

you forgot bugs that eat bugs and fish that eat bugs tho, and you may have uncovered the OTHER secret reason I advise folks to clean their nasty butt sand.

If a hobbyist doesn't go this route, I need to support the full QT and treatment route.

yup. Or do both, as many actually in fact do. Some by accident, IMO

I think we should consider this. No matter the species, from puppy to pangolin, intake of the animal to a healthy environment is exactly the same. Its just the specifics of the disease and parasites that differ from species to species.

This is husbandry. Visit a zoo, aquarium or farm, you'll see similar regimens, esp if you take to the time to talk to keepers. Also, in my case the wife's Orchid Society meetings. Same exact conversations there.

 

[Brew12]

for the Burgess study and any theory on fish health to work, the fish need to be in excellent condition and IMO feeding sterile foods like almost anything commercially available and anything dry won't do it alone.
We need to feed our fish a supply of living bacteria every day.

I completely agree with this. In order for a fish to have a healthy immune system they absolutely must be fed properly.

In the ocean, currents sweep parasites away. Fish may swim away from where the parasites are hatching. Parasites are consumed by many different creatures. Everything is food for something. The problem is trying to replicate this in our glass cages. I feel it is an absolutely critical step to run some form of UV or ozone generator to make this method of reef keeping work reliably.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The problem is trying to replicate this in our glass cages. I feel it is an absolutely critical step to run some form of UV or ozone generator to make this method of reef keeping work reliably.

and or

Parasites are consumed by many different creatures.

I dont run uv or anything else. tunze 9004 only. Bought my first filter sock last month. But I do and have always had a lot of "bugs" and fish that pick.

 

[Paul B]

I do run Ozone in my skimmer but I don't think that has anything to do with the lack of diseases in my tank. I think there are so many parasites in there, especially in my reverse UG filter that very few of them go into the skimmer and I am also not sure Ozone will kill parasites. I got some amphipods living quite nicely in there and besides having a nice tan, they seem fine.

 

[Brew12]

I do run Ozone in my skimmer but I don't think that has anything to do with the lack of diseases in my tank. I think there are so many parasites in there, especially in my reverse UG filter that very few of them go into the skimmer and I am also not sure Ozone will kill parasites. I got some amphipods living quite nicely in there and besides having a nice tan, they seem fine.

Everything I have seen shows that Ozone does kills parasites through oxidation, like bleach.
http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files...mportant-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf Look at the top of page 8.

In the system you are running you don't need to kill all of the parasites. You only need to kill enough to prevent a lethal level from being reached on a naive fish. As long as enough of the free swimming parasites either attempt to attach to an immune fish or are killed by the ozone in your skimmer, your naive fish should eventually become immune itself.
I believe that proper nutrition allows the fish to both survive a higher number of parasites and to become immune more quickly.

If you circulated too much water through an ozone generator or UV filter you could risk killing all of the parasites which could eventually cause your fish to lose their immunity.

 

[Paul B]

Back to this thread. In my tank the skimmer with the ozonizer picks up water from near the surface. Parasites swim about as well as a cinder block with small wings so I would "assume" all the parasites in my tank are hanging out in the gravel at the bottom. I can't see them but if I were a parasite, that's where I would be and not near the surface looking for the intake of my skimmer.
This week I added 4 queen anthius. I have no idea if they have parasites, bubonuic plague or irritable bowel disease and I don't care. These particular fish may not live long but not because of disease as my fish would not think of getting any silly disease. These may not be able to find enough food because they eat just about nothing but tiny, living prey like the new born brine shrimp I add every day. It may not be enough but time will tell.
Fish diseases is something other people think about but not me as it is a non issue. I don't find fish to be delicate creatures like some of our kids today. They are robust, healthy and have an immune system that can protect them from everything. Even getting run over by a school bus as that has never happened so I attribute that to their immune system.
Here is a video of them. If you look closely, you can see the parasites jumping off the fish.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Velvet is partly photo synthetic and light loving, which would bring it closer to the surface.

An ozonizer produces O3, which continues through the water until the thid oxygen molecule attaches to something, so where does the ozone flow out?

 

[Brew12]

Back to this thread. In my tank the skimmer with the ozonizer picks up water from near the surface. Parasites swim about as well as a cinder block with small wings so I would "assume" all the parasites in my tank are hanging out in the gravel at the bottom. I can't see them but if I were a parasite, that's where I would be and not near the surface looking for the intake of my skimmer.
This week I added 4 queen anthius. I have no idea if they have parasites, bubonuic plague or irritable bowel disease and I don't care. These particular fish may not live long but not because of disease as my fish would not think of getting any silly disease. These may not be able to find enough food because they eat just about nothing but tiny, living prey like the new born brine shrimp I add every day. It may not be enough but time will tell.
Fish diseases is something other people think about but not me as it is a non issue. I don't find fish to be delicate creatures like some of our kids today. They are robust, healthy and have an immune system that can protect them from everything. Even getting run over by a school bus as that has never happened so I attribute that to their immune system.
Here is a video of them. If you look closely, you can see the parasites jumping off the fish.

Copepods, Amphipods and bits of algae don't swim well either but I'm constantly catching those in my filter socks.

I know you don't feel your ozone helps your system with parasites. I even agree that you could stop using it and wouldn't have any problems. Your fish have constant exposure and well developed immune systems. If someone is going to replicate your system then I feel running ozone or a UV filter will help limit parasite populations until the fish in their system can develop robust immunities.

 

[Paul B]

Eatbreakfast my ozone flows out into a 5' trough then into the tank, no sissy carbon for me.

Brew. I assume out of the six million parasites in my tank 3 or 4 do go through the skimmer and get exposed to ozone which I would imagine could give them prostate cancer or acne. But the rest of them I am sure are all hanging out trying to infect something wishing they were in a tank of fish that they could infect.
If you want to copy my tank you also need a reverse undergravel filter, the heart of my system.

 

[Brew12]

Eatbreakfast my ozone flows out into a 5' trough then into the tank, no sissy carbon for me.

Brew. I assume out of the six million parasites in my tank 3 or 4 do go through the skimmer and get exposed to ozone which I would imagine could give them prostate cancer or acne. But the rest of them I am sure are all hanging out trying to infect something wishing they were in a tank of fish that they could infect.
If you want to copy my tank you also need a reverse undergravel filter, the heart of my system.

Paul,

I would be willing to bet that your parasite level is very low. One of the big things an immune fish does is limit the reproduction of any parasites that do actually feed on it. It's really the perfect system that occurs in nature that you have replicated. Just enough parasites reproduce to allow the immunity to continue yet not enough to harm the fish. When a fish without immunity stops by for a visit they are not immediately overwhelmed and the immune fish act as decoys for the new fish to help spread out the small spike in parasites caused by the new fish. This helps keep the new fish from being overwhelmed before they develop their own immunity.

 

[sundog101]

Back to this thread. In my tank the skimmer with the ozonizer picks up water from near the surface. Parasites swim about as well as a cinder block with small wings so I would "assume" all the parasites in my tank are hanging out in the gravel at the bottom. I can't see them but if I were a parasite, that's where I would be and not near the surface looking for the intake of my skimmer.
This week I added 4 queen anthius. I have no idea if they have parasites, bubonuic plague or irritable bowel disease and I don't care. These particular fish may not live long but not because of disease as my fish would not think of getting any silly disease. These may not be able to find enough food because they eat just about nothing but tiny, living prey like the new born brine shrimp I add every day. It may not be enough but time will tell.
Fish diseases is something other people think about but not me as it is a non issue. I don't find fish to be delicate creatures like some of our kids today. They are robust, healthy and have an immune system that can protect them from everything. Even getting run over by a school bus as that has never happened so I attribute that to their immune system.
Here is a video of them. If you look closely, you can see the parasites jumping off the fish.

Paul, were you using something else for your feeder other than a piece of stocking? I though I read that somewhere on here, but I might be imagining things

 

[Paul B]

Brew, as I said, I can't see the parasites. Maybe Burgess had better eyesight but if that is the theory about having few parasites, it sounds good to me. I really don't know if I have few parasites or if their numbers are like how many people attend a Lady GaGa concert. I only know they don't bother my fish at all and are a non issue to me. Lady GaGa may have parasites, I don't know, but she is talented. I went to one of her concerts near my house. Weird but talented.

Sundog, that is correct, I don't use a stocking any more. My wife got suspicious of all the holes in her hosiery and didn't believe the moth story. I now use the very fine screen that I found inside an old, used RO membrane. It is plastic and I can bleach it. I have been using the same piece for a few months and it doesn't wear out. I am not sure if all RO cartridges have it. I used a hack saw to cut off the ends of the thing and unroll the screen.
You may also be imagining things as I don't know you very well.

 

[mcarroll]

I would be willing to bet that your parasite level is very low. One of the big things an immune fish does is limit the reproduction of any parasites that do actually feed on it. It's really the perfect system that occurs in nature that you have replicated. Just enough parasites reproduce to allow the immunity to continue yet not enough to harm the fish. When a fish without immunity stops by for a visit they are not immediately overwhelmed and the immune fish act as decoys for the new fish to help spread out the small spike in parasites caused by the new fish. This helps keep the new fish from being overwhelmed before they develop their own immunity.

According to the Eradication-istas, any level of parasites is Bad™. You're starting to type like "one of us"!

You actually just described how the active immunity vs (at least) Ich works. Fish can remain carriers for up to/around 6 months and they will release parasites at a low rate during this time. Presuming they are in recovery....relapse is the other avenue that's possible if stress isn't eliminated and care isn't increased. I think we know, if that's the case parasites will be released at an uncontrolled rate and the fish may succumb.

If you haven't heard anything about Social Immunity, you touched on that a bit too......it's literally, proactively healthy for fish to be around other healthy fish....for lots of different reasons.

From the blog: Personal immunity versus social immunity
(I read but then lost an article that was more specific to fish....still looking if anyone else bumps into it. This article is a good substitute tho!)

None of this is exclusive to Paul's tank or fish. Doesn't have to be anyway. These are characteristics of fish which most of us (probably almost all of us) need to put more effort into understanding and exploiting – instead of rejecting, denying and crippling – that's all.

I think if anyone took the time to list 10 or 20 things that Paul does differently than they do and picked just a few to emulate, they'd see an improvement in their fish vs just "standard practice". Could be blackworms, newly-hatched brine shrimp and frozen clams. Could be taking your sweet time and blackworms. Could be frozen clams and the whole tank blast/diatom filtration routine. Etc. Pick your favorites. (I bet most of us would be able to use more than a few.)

2¢

 

[Paul B]

It boggles my mind that there are so many parasite threads. I just don't get it. If you quarantine, there should be no parasites and if you use my method "correctly" there should be no parasite problems.
I do get it with people who, for some reason want to feed flakes and pellets, they will always have problems no matter what they do. But almost everyone else can feed correctly if they wanted to. Just because they sell fish food in stores and it comes nicely packaged with healthy looking angelfish and tangs on the box doesn't mean we have to just feed that. Stuff in a bait store, supermarket or fish market is sometimes better, it is always cheaper and it has the bacteria in it that fish need. But what do I know?

 

[mcarroll]

Sundog, that is correct, I don't use a stocking any more. My wife got suspicious of all the holes in her hosiery and didn't believe the moth story. I now use the very fine screen that I found inside an old, used RO membrane. It is plastic and I can bleach it. I have been using the same piece for a few months and it doesn't wear out. I am not sure if all RO cartridges have it. I used a hack saw to cut off the ends of the thing and unroll the screen.

The idea of the screen is totally to keep the fish out vs restricting the brine shrimp in any way, correct?

So using "too big a screen" is not too likely to be a problem? (Vs the too-fine meshes that I've read about on some DIYs which seem to get fouled up quickly.)

 

[Paul B]

Yes, that is a problem. The screen must be very small so the shrimp have a hard time getting out. They have these little swimmy things on their sides and they have trouble getting through the mesh, the mandarins and other fish pull them through. A large screen would just allow the shrimp to rush to the surface and be lost as soon as you put them in there. You want the fish to eat for a couple of hours.

 

[mcarroll]

Gotcha....so there's a balance to it.

 

[Paul B]

Look at the video I just posted above your post