A discussion on immunity

[melypr1985]

Well said again! It's supposed to be fun! Oh and my name is Meredith

 

[Paul B]

I knew that. Mine is Paulyhpr

 

[Paul B]

There is some information on my Podcast about immunity (and Supermodels)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTca3OA2WiKA1paywbxpfeA

 

[mcarroll]

"The use of probiotics in aquaculture can be an effective strategy to reduce the use of antibiotics and other treatments, and the [lactic acid bacteria] are the most widely proposed candidates for this purpose[...]"
(Review.)

 

[Paul B]

As for probiotics, They "may" be great. We really don't know yet, but in the mean time why not just feed live or fresh food which have all the bacteria, of the correct type in the right amounts that fish need? I don't know what is in probiotic capsules (even though I take them myself)

Most fish in the sea don't take probiotic capsules. It's not just the bacteria in "real" food. It's the oils, vitamins and minerals along with calcium that fish need. Why give them fake food, then try to boost the value with artificial bacteria?

That is what they do with white flour. Whole wheat flour is healthy, but it requires expensive refrigeration and it goes bad. So the makers of it remove the fiber, and wheat germ leaving only the starch. Starch is not food, it is glue so they are not allowed to call it food. So they always "enhance" white flour with vitamins and minerals so they can sell it as food. Look at the ingredients in white bread. Those are added nutrients. Look at the ingredients on flake food. After the first one or two can you recognize anything else? Does it sound like food, or preservatives? I feed my fish food with one ingredient such as worms, clams, or Mysis. In the sea they eat one ingredient food such as "fish".

If you want your fish spawning, immune and living ten or twenty years with no problems, feed them real food that doesn't need anything to help it.

 

[mcarroll]

For the sake of discussion, I would consider live food a natural - and superior, as you rightly point out - form of probiotic. Probiotics "in the original wrapper" you might say.

The quote (and review link) is just some supporting science that shows the fish farming industry (in particular the shrimp farming industry) has been using artificial probiotics in feed for twenty years or more and even that appears to have significant benefits. The Japanese were doing it long before that.

(Why you and I - twenty years later - are taking probiotic pills.)

This may be one of my favorite threads of all time.

 

[Paul B]

[QUOTE

This may be one of my favorite threads of all time. [/QUOTE]

Mine also, and I hardly even mentioned Supermodels or anything. But immunity is one topic we "never" hear about. Instead, we hear so much about sick fish, copper, prizapro, quarantine, antibiotics, fallow periods, but nothing about immunity. Like Duh.
This is the most important topic IMO. I realize people like colorful corals, SPS that can understand French and bangai cardinals that know how to text etc. But if your fish are not immune (which is a simple thing to do, or if they are not spawning (which is another simple thing to do) then we are doing it all wrong and may as well collect stamps.
Me and you take probiotics because we are intelligent (although I don't understand French and the only word I know in Spanish is Ricardo Montalban) But we take it because we feel it is good for us due to our modern lifestyle we no longer chase down buffalo and eat it raw like our ancestors did. They didn't need probiotics and their insurance plan didn't even provide them. They also didn't get sick if they ate a rotten moose hoof because they were immune. Our fish are also not in their natural environment so we have to try a little harder to keep up their immune system. But all we have to do is remember the basics, where the fish came from. No, not the store, the ocean. Where they ate live food full of bacteria. It is so simple that.....I can't think of anything as simple. Maybe Paris Hilton, but I never met her so I am speculating.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

I always enjoy Paul's posts but we never seem to have enough time to chat about stuff like this when I actually see him face-to-face.

This is a great topic about naturally occurring bacteria and how it benefits captive aquarium fish. In early 2013 we began studying the research done in aquaculture for the finfish, scallops, shrimp etc which are farmed for us to consume. Typically bacteria is added to the water, but also aquaculture feeds are often supplemented with bacteria as well. It makes sense that there would be a cross over benefit for ornamentals in our hobby. Often times due to collection, transportation, medication, etc wild caught fish can get their naturally occurring levels if bacteria disrupted. Having stable levels of gut flora is important for digestion, absorption of nutrients, fending off pathogens, etc. (There is a lot more details here: http://www.larrysreefservices.com/probiotics.html ) We started adding active cultures of probiotic bacteria to our foods in 2013. The results have been very positive with numerous aquaculture facilities using our foods for breeding delicate species, some of which have not been bred before in captivity. The probiotics were a big reason many researchers were drawn to our foods. Now the testimonials on our site are starting to stack up from breeding projects so the concept of dosing food is getting a lot of attention.

Sorry for the shameless plug, but this topic has been one which we have been very passionate about and it likely will be in the spotlight as more and more aquarium foods begin to add bacteria. A trip to my LFS recently revealed another frozen food maker is adding "probiotics" to their frozen food available in cube form. Our newest "Fertility Frenzy" broodstock diet has two additional strains of bacteria not found in our other blends.

Recently at the Marine Breeding Initiative Workshop in Michigan the topic of supplementing foods with bacteria to benefit the host and larvae was discussed. We are watching closely as the Tropical Aquaculture Lab in Florida and also the Oceanic Institute in Hawaii introduced our foods into the blue hippo and yellow tang breeding projects.

Obviously, your OP was regarding the live bacteria in the pods and worms you are feeding, but absent of someone having access to the live foods as you do feeding a frozen food supplemented with bacteria is the next best thing. (IMHO)

Gotta finish packing for MACNA!

 

[Paul B]

Actually Larry's foods already have the correct bacteria in it even if they didn't add any. Freezing just slows down the activity of bacteria but it doesn't kill 'most" of them. Tough little suckers. I use Larry's foods many times because I run out of my normal live worms and clams. If I lived in a place where I could not get these foods, which is most of the US or if my wife, who is stronger than me didn't let me keep worms I would probably use Larry's foods exclusively. I still have a little of his food left and found a supplier of it near me in Aquarium Village in Westbury. The next time I go there I will bring my cooler and get some as the 20 minute drive in the traffic we have here may melt it. Or I may get hungry and eat it myself as it has what I normally eat for dinner anyway. Except for the worms.
I think bacteria is the next biggest thing we will be talking about on fish forums. Look what happened with live blackworms. I told everyone about them, now my supplier runs out all the time. I hope we don't run out of bacteria.

Larry, if you want to be fact to face, here is my Pod cast
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTca3OA2WiKA1paywbxpfeA

 

[mcarroll]

[...]That is what they do with white flour. Whole wheat flour is healthy, but it requires expensive refrigeration and it goes bad. So the makers of it remove the fiber, and wheat germ leaving only the starch. Starch is not food, it is glue so they are not allowed to call it food. So they always "enhance" white flour with vitamins and minerals so they can sell it as food.[...]

I think I'm double-replying now on your post - sorry! But this stuck with me and the more I thought about it, I ended up laughing!

"Fortified with 12 essential vitamins and minerals." Something like that is always how it's phrased - whether on a bag of flour or box of cereal - so it sounds like you're getting something good - like a bonus!

"Ooh! Not just a bowl of ceareal - a fortified bowl of cereal!"

Problem is, fresh-ground wheat has 60-some different vitamins, nutrients and minerals - even live probiotics - the vast majority of which are lost during processing to white flour, not just the 12 or whatever that they add back in...which varies per flour make and model.

I'd like to have a relationship like that with a bank so I could get 64 dollars and only have to "fortify" the bank with 12 or 18 dollars in return.

 

[Paul B]

I have been using that white flour analogy for a long time. White flour doesn't do bad and bugs don't even eat it because they know better. But it makes great paste.

 

[Longnose Hawkfish]

Very interesting. Wish I had the room to grow my own live food. Have you ever exposed your system to a disease or parasite?

 

[Paul B]

I add NSW and mud from the sea to my tank all the time and collect amphiopods from a muddy tide pool so I am sure there is plenty of diseases and parasites in there. Thats why they have such a strong immune system

 

[Paul B]

The sea, and our tanks are swimming in a sea of bacteria and (in many tanks) parasites. We humans are also covered in bacteria and parasites. We have special parasites that live in our nose hairs, ears, eyelashes, guts and under our arms, we are supposed to be swimming in bacteria. Out digestive systems are mostly bacteria and we could not live without them. Sterile fish tanks with sterile fish eating sterile food is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Paul B]

I'd like to have a relationship like that with a bank so I could get 64 dollars and only have to "fortify" the bank with 12 or 18 dollars in return.

That is a good analogy. It reminds me of a story (everything reminds me of a story) A while ago I was in a store, a women's store because my wife was not feeling well and I had to return something. It was also in a Mall, and I don't do Malls. I get that mall look as soon as I walk in so I try to run out as fast as I can. Anyway there were about 3 women on line so I assumed it wouldn't take long. Wrong. I mean 3 ladies, how long could it take?
So the first one goes up to the checkout girl and they start talking about kids, cellulite, the sizes on European clothes etc. That takes 10 minutes and she leaves. The next Lady knows the sales girl so they exchange E Mail addresses, look at each other's kid pictures, converse on when they went to grade school etc. After 10 or 15 minutes, she is finished and leaves. The next lady, after waiting in line for 20 minutes decides she wants a different color "thing" whatever she bought so we all wait while they go and look for this non existent item. They couldn't find it so they look in the store room, then call all the other stores in the area. I am standing there getting a heart attack and a nervous breakdown, probably also growing ingrown toenails. Finally, after seemingly a weekend, she leaves with out buying anything so it is my turn. I just want to return this thing. She wants to know what is wrong with it. How do I know? I don't even know what it is, just take it back, I don't even need my money back, just get me out of here. She gives me a nasty look, probably because I didn't want to see a picture of her kid, or dog.
I get to leave and go have a drink. How do you women shop? Like, don't you have other things to do than wait in line all day?
There should be a Man store strictly for Men. And only real Men should be allowed to go. I mean, maybe they need to give you a Man card or tattoo a bar code on your arm, next to a battle ship or cro bar. In a Man store there would only be Supermodels working there, but they don't have to do anything but point. I would walk in and say something like "Where do you keep your chain saws", and she would point to the place.
The price would be clearly marked on the thing in wide magic marker including the tax and anything else they want to charge me. But the price should be rounded off to the nearest dollar. No change because change is for Sissies and Girly men, (who shouldn't be allowed in the store anyway) Then the Supermodel would point to the door where there is a bucket. You throw approximately the amount of your purchase into the bucket and leave to go use your chain saw. Sometimes you would throw in a little more, sometimes a little less, but at the end of the year, it will all work out. You wouldn't need silly accounts to figure out every penny and no need to carry change to the bank.

 

[Paul B]

Getting back to immunity. I think if we want to quarantine fish for any length of time, that quarantine tank should be at least as large and well cycled as a normal tank we will be keeping that fish in for the rest of his life. I just read that someone has a copperband butterfly in a small quarantine tank and the fish, that was eating at the store, stopped eating. Now he wants to know what type of medication he needs to add or what type of food he needs to get the fish eating again. Is it me? There is nothing wrong with that fish, but you can't put a copperband butterfly in a small bare tank for any period of time, much less two months and expect it to eat and most importantly, stay alive. So many fish are lost this way that to me at least, it is mind boggling. People will jump all over you if you try to keep a tang, or butterfly in a small tank, but feel it is perfectly fine to confine it to a small, bare tank for quarantine. Like Duh. This stuff is so simple my 3 year old Grand Daughter could figure it out. Well, almost.

 

[Humblefish]

Paul, I QT'd my current CBB and a Longnose in a 20 gal QT for one month and they ate just fine. Bare bottom, PVC caves, no rocks to pick at. Mostly fed them live blackworms. The Longnose went into a 150 gal DT with lots of rocks, corals & pods; a few months later he mysteriously stopped eating & died. Go figure. Maybe it was aggression from some of my other fish in the DT.

While I agree a small, bare QT is less than ideal and probably stresses fish out - fish, like humans, don't die from stress. They mostly die from disease and poor water quality. I've had just as many fish refuse to eat & die from starvation back when I just dumped them straight into my DT, as I do now in QT. Maybe it's because some fish just aren't cut out for aquarium life, they aren't tough enough to make the transition. Kind of like a prisoner who commits suicide after just a week in the joint.

I can see how a butterflyfish or Moorish Idol with a long beak, adeptly suited for hunting in crevices and holes, could possibly starve in QT. If all you did was just dump food into the water for him to eat. Of course, you could try being creative and drilling some holes in a feeder or even use a feeding grid like below.

 

[mcarroll]

Stress is only what happens when your boss yells at you. If you don't yell at your fish they should be OK.

QT is how you make fish healthy. Just keep your voice down.

Come on Paul!

 

[Paul B]

Humblefish, he was quarantining a copperband butterfly in a 10 gallon tank.
Mcarrol, If my boss ever yelled at me, I yelled back.
QT is how you take a healthy fish and make him into a Wimpy mess. Unless you do it correctly, or do like I do. My fish always eat. I guess they can't resist live worms.

 

[mcarroll]

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