A discussion on immunity

[Humblefish]

QT is how you take a healthy fish and make him into a Wimpy mess.

Well, since an estimated 70-90% of the fish collected for our hobby never make it to a LFS... I'm sorta dubious on the health of the few that do. Could be the thousands of miles they just traveled, spending time in various tanks with poor water quality and countless pathogens. The poor fish may have not eaten for days or even weeks. But that's OK, because strengthening and conditioning is yet another good reason to QT. I'll take that sickly, wimpy mess and cater to his every whim, feed him 3x daily, talk to him, blow kisses at the QT. In my QT he will get much needed rest, eat without competition and be strengthened before joining the DT. If symptoms of a disease present themselves, I can begin treatment immediately.

When it's all said & done, my QT'd fish will be like Hulk Hogan ready to go into a battle royal. Because that's what awaits him in the DT. A tank filled with other healthy (and sometimes aggressive) fish, less than thrilled about the newcomer's arrival, with whom he must immediately compete with for food and territory. Even Hulk Hogan needed strengthening & conditioning before he could boast about his "24 inch pythons".

 

[Paul B]

Yes, but did anyone blow kisses at Hulk Hogan?

 

[Paul B]

I think many in this hobby are thinking as we did in the 70s, but I feel we need to advance and progress a bit. We humans try to become immune by being inoculated with weak organisms and it works for us. We are immune from most things. Our ancestors were also immune from most things because they were exposed more to stale food, and dirt. Remember for the first 300,000 years we didn't bathe or wash anything including our food and we got along just fine except for that Saber tooth tiger thing.
Now that civilization here is relatively clean, our immune system is not as strong as it used to be. Even in the last 100 years we have lost some immunity. My own Mother lived to be 99 never being in a hospital or taking an aspirin. As a young girl, when she would get sick, her Mother would make her sleep in the stable with the horses because they thought the smell of horse poop would keep her free of disease. It seems to have worked.
Her brother, my Uncle, also lived into his 90s, never having seen a doctor or dentist (or paid taxes) in his life. Like never. And he was very strong and would have killed you if you looked at him wrong. Those were strong people with a strong immune system. He was even stabbed numerous times and cleaned it with a rag he cleaned eels with. Now that is an immune system. (he worked at the New York City docks and that was one of the toughest places on earth in the 1920s) If any or us did that, we would be dead. I don't advocate living like that, but it shows how our immune system can be if it is exposed to disease organisms and how us modern humans unfortunately lost most of that ability through our hygiene. Now we depend on doctors and medications to keep us healthy because our immune system is not allowed to do the job it was designed for. But we can keep our fish immune without feeling bad that they don't practice the proper hygiene. Their tank is not supposed to be squeaky clean. It may make us feel better but it is bad for the fish who were designed to live in an ocean that has everything in it including Amelia Hearts shoes and Columbus underwear.

I realize this thinking is backwards from the way we were brought up and I can't help that. I don't like thinking about re cycled Ideas that obviously don't work. I get a lot of flack from my ideas but I feel it is common sense.
I also was always taught to wash my hands before I eat and still do, but just because we were taught that doesn't mean it will help us stay immune from anything.
Doctors are now prescribing much less antibiotics for this very reason, so our own immune system can strengthen itself and help us in the future just as Supermodels sometimes do.

 

[Paul B]

Getting back to immunity, I am not sure if I mentioned this (more than 8 times) but when I was 20 I was stationed in Viet Nam. Not in Saigon or some other relatively clean place, but the jungle. Just like Tarzan movies but without Jane although I am not sure if any of the numerous of monkeys were named Jane. If you don't know anything about a jungle I will tell you. In the rainy season, when it is not raining, it is raining harder. In the (very short) dry season, everything is covered in red dust. Especially when a helicopter lands near you which happens maybe 5 times an hour and you are covered in sweat because it rarely gets below 95 degrees (not that I had a thermometer or anything else) and you spend your "free" time filling sand bags, (and swatting bugs or shooting snakes,) you look just like Sasquatch because red dust is caked all over you. So you go and take a " shower." Oh, but wait, you have no water, or shower, or anything that resembles a shower (unless it is the rainy season and you are up to your waist in it, and leaches) so you wait to take a shower. You wait for the day you leave the country which happens after a year. We didn't have a few things you normally have in civilization. Things like a roof, walls, floors, tent, electricity, plumbing, water (unless it is raining) bed, real food (we ate C-Rations) or underwear. That is correct, they didn't give us underwear, they didn't give us that because when it remains wet for a year, it rots. Why am I saying all this? No, I don't want you to join the Army, but it would be a noble thing to do and I am sure the conditions are now better. I am telling you this to show that the human immune system is a fantastic innovation, especially when it is allowed to do it's job. People now walk around with that silly bottle of hand sanitizer, and do you know who are the people who are always sick? Correct, the people with the hand sanitizer. Our bodies were built to handle dirt, bacteria and viruses. Go to any Natural History Museum and look at Primitive Man. See if you notice any of them holding hand sanitizer. In most museums, you won't see that. Cave men were well equipped to handle germs and the occasional Woolly Mammoth tusk stuck in their arm pit. I spent an entire year in that jungle and never got sick. I slept in the mud every night (when you had time to sleep) I never washed my hands, as the little "clean" water you had was for drinking. That "clean" water came from a river. When we ate, which was any time we were hungry and we had C-rations, helicopters would land, covering our food with dirt. It didn't matter and made the C-Rations taste a little better. If we were going to stay at that LZ (clearing in the jungle) for more than a few days the helicopters sometimes sprayed the surrounding vegetation (and us) with bug killer (probably DDT) and Agent Orange. When we found ourselves in water, which happened quite often we burned leeches off ourselves with cigarettes that came free in our C-Rations (which by the way were put in the can before I was born)
While in Viet Nam, I never got sick, nothing. Not a cold, Fly, headache, rash, food poisoning, ich, nothing. Why was that? It was because my immune system was up to the task. Before going to a place like that they gave us shots for plague, parrot fever, jungle fever and a number of things I can't spell. That is because we Americans have never been exposed to those things and our immune system was not prepared. The local people there had no shots and they looked mighty healthy to me. For the rest of the illnesses like colds, flu, sore throat etc, I never got that because before going to Nam, my basic training was conducted in mud which built up my bodies defenses.
We in this hobby need to change our thinking about keeping fish healthy. Sterility, long quarantining, antibiotics and siphoning the sand bed is not the answer. Strengthening the fishes immune system "is" the answer and the only answer if you want to keep your fish alive and healthy in a natural way where they are immune from everything except a broken heater or a Supermodel with a bottle of copper and no test kit.
This is a "friend" I met there. He ate rats which were like ants here. They were all over everything. When we were, shall we say, "in the bathroom". (Which had no bath and wasn't a room) we would take M-16 rounds, remove the projectile and fill it with soap to shoot them while they tried to climb up on our feet. This way, we didn't blow off our feet.

 

[mcarroll]

Among all the raw fruits and raw critters - especially ants - they eat (they are not vegetarian), all monkeys and apes eat dirt. THAT is a probiotic diet!

 

[melypr1985]

So let's say i want to do a little bit of both here. All my fish were sick so i put them in QT and I am treating them with meds. I'm leaving my tank fallow to rid myself of the ick in the tank and give my fish a fresh start. Can I then employ feeding live foods after they are back in the tank to give them that immunity and health? Cant we do both? I see that putting them in qt could weaken their immune system, but what if we fed live foods like your doing in the display while they are there? Wouldn't that help? It doesn't have to be one way or the other does it?

 

[Paul B]

Mcarrol, yes it is and I ate an awful lot of dirt. On some holidays we would occasionally get "ice cream." It was 100 degrees and there was no electricity so the "ice Cream" was hot and melted. It would conglomerate in the bottom of the filthy canvas tarp that was slung under Ch 47 helocopters like this one. After we removed the ammo, C-Rations, Claymore mines, and mail We would take our helmets and push away some of the floating dirt, gunpowder and bugs and scoop up a mouthful of hot "ice Cream" that was pooled on the bottom. It was a treat and never hurt us. Dirt and bugs are fine.
Diana I saw that your fish had ich. That's because you didn't read my posts and your fish should never get ich or anything else. While you are curing them I would feed them live foods every day and clams or whatever whole foods you can get that has live bacteria on it. I would also not quarantine them very long but cure them in 2 weeks with copper. Copper got a bad rap but all your fish in the store are swimming in copper. If it were not for copper, there would be no fish hobby. I used to keep my fish in copper continuously and I had them for years.
Your fish still have "some" immunity from ick but the fish were weak so their immunity was not strong enough to fight off the parasites. Being they have ich, their immune system will recognize it for the next time as long as they don't spend months in quarantine. I realize many people will disagree with me and wish that I would be Quarantined on a desert island controlled by Supermodels with no means of escape, but those are people who keep fish that are not immune. Those are the people you see posting on disease forums. I have never been there. Fish that are not immune are not very healthy as immunity is a very big part of a fishes health. I devoted a lot of this in my book. I also have been writing about it for a couple of years. You need to get, and keep your fish in breeding condition through live and whole foods, no flakes, pellets or freeze dried. You don't eat that and neither should your fish. Diana, I want your fish to be as healthy as you and I want to be.

 

[Paul B]

Meredith, I see I called you Diana above. I have no idea why I did that. Maybe I was singing a Diana Ross song or having a senior moment. But I am sorry, I just noticed it.

A little more on immunity if anyone is interested. This stuff fascinates me almost as much as Supermodels.

A fishes epidermis consists of, besides other things, various types of unicellular glands some of which are goblet or mucous (slime) glands. These glands secrete slime. (other parts of fish also produce slime) Slime is a major part of the fishes immune system.



Besides secreting slime, the epidermis produces keratocytes. These motile keratocytes can cover the surface of a wound in hours after it's formation adding bacterial resistance to the wound and helping new cells to grow. This is the reason fish appendages, such as fins can re- grow.



Skin mucus evolved to trap and immobilize most bacteria and pathogens including parasites. This mucus is constantly shed, eliminating most pathogens and is immediately replaced.



The thickness of the slime is regulated in part by the stressers put on the animal such as temperature or stress. Copper, that we often use to treat fish would also cause the fish to produce more mucus there by helping the fish to eliminate the pest as well as to help kill it.



Interestingly a different type of mucus is produced for several days after a fish is stressed composed of a gel like material. It is unknown weather this gel has the same antibacterial and anti parasitic properties of the normal slime. This last statement has not been qualified on "all" types of fish as it has not been tested but it is interesting to me because I believe quarantining fish in a small tank would elicit this response making the fish more susceptical to infection. This is only a thought on my part and not something I discovered through research.



There are many more ways a fish has immunity to pathogens but they all have one thing in common. They require energy in the form of food. I know I have said it numerous times, but almost none of our fish are fed enough or correctly which is the reason for so many disease threads. With all the help fish get from their vast, complicated immune system, they should never get sick. If they do, it is our fault, not the store, not the wholesaler and not the fish.



We supply the living conditions, the stress and the food and most of us are not very good at it. Fish in our care should live out their normal lives, disease free and they should also be producing eggs, and if they are in the proper tank, spawning.



If our fish are not spawning, their immune system is not functioning and they are susceptible to all sorts of infections.



Feeding fish correctly is easy as I have mentioned many times. We have an obligation to keep these creatures in the state of health that they were living in, in the sea.



Just my opinion of course.



Reference:



ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470







Review Article



An Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish Skin







María Ángeles Esteban

 

[mcarroll]

@shoelaceike should check out this thread. [emoji6][emoji106]

 

[shoelaceike]

Summarize lol.....can't go through the whole thing

 

[Humblefish]

I think it has something to do with feeding live blackworms, running a diatom filter, soaking the fish's food in garlic, and swinging a cross over the tank.

 

[Paul B]

A cross and Chicken bones while humming a Linda Ronstadt song.

 

[omykiss001]

I think many in this hobby are thinking as we did in the 70s, but I feel we need to advance and progress a bit. We humans try to become immune by being inoculated with weak organisms and it works for us. We are immune from most things. Our ancestors were also immune from most things because they were exposed more to stale food, and dirt. Remember for the first 300,000 years we didn't bathe or wash anything including our food and we got along just fine except for that Saber tooth tiger thing.
Now that civilization here is relatively clean, our immune system is not as strong as it used to be. Even in the last 100 years we have lost some immunity. My own Mother lived to be 99 never being in a hospital or taking an aspirin. As a young girl, when she would get sick, her Mother would make her sleep in the stable with the horses because they thought the smell of horse poop would keep her free of disease. It seems to have worked.
Her brother, my Uncle, also lived into his 90s, never having seen a doctor or dentist (or paid taxes) in his life. Like never. And he was very strong and would have killed you if you looked at him wrong. Those were strong people with a strong immune system. He was even stabbed numerous times and cleaned it with a rag he cleaned eels with. Now that is an immune system. (he worked at the New York City docks and that was one of the toughest places on earth in the 1920s) If any or us did that, we would be dead. I don't advocate living like that, but it shows how our immune system can be if it is exposed to disease organisms and how us modern humans unfortunately lost most of that ability through our hygiene. Now we depend on doctors and medications to keep us healthy because our immune system is not allowed to do the job it was designed for. But we can keep our fish immune without feeling bad that they don't practice the proper hygiene. Their tank is not supposed to be squeaky clean. It may make us feel better but it is bad for the fish who were designed to live in an ocean that has everything in it including Amelia Hearts shoes and Columbus underwear.

I realize this thinking is backwards from the way we were brought up and I can't help that. I don't like thinking about re cycled Ideas that obviously don't work. I get a lot of flack from my ideas but I feel it is common sense.
I also was always taught to wash my hands before I eat and still do, but just because we were taught that doesn't mean it will help us stay immune from anything.
Doctors are now prescribing much less antibiotics for this very reason, so our own immune system can strengthen itself and help us in the future just as Supermodels sometimes do.

While I have tremendous respect for Paul and his husbandry for his fish and ability to keep them in peak condition I will at least speak out on his generalizations on immunity as a trained immunologist and microbiologist. I fully agree keeping an animal including humans in peak physical condition does keep the immune system in peak form and does give an animal a good fighting chance in the event of a pathogen, it does not mean you have any immunity to unknown invaders and depending on the virulence of said pathogen there may not be time for the immune system to work against it, and let's not forget about those pathogens that use our immune system against us, salmonella and HIV are 2 examples. Yes some survive but many don't and yes in general this is at the heart of Darwin's theory of natural selection those with genes that allow an animal to leave behind more offspring will over time dominate the population and perhaps be better able to handle certain pathogens, however this is 2 way street and the bug is also evolving. This is why doctors use less antibiotics due to bacteria gaining resistance, you see they used to give em' to people who clearly had a viral infection or a very minor infection that really did not call for their use. Couple this with many peoples inability to follow directions and stopped taking them when they felt better even though the bottle said until they are gone. We are feed them to livestock because they put weight on better than animals that don't get them, but give bacteria exposure and evolution will take its course and superbugs are born. This is why we are using them less as we want the magic bullets to work when we really need them.

While it's great a couple members of your family made it into their 90's this is not an example of the population at large. You quote cavemen who lived to on average a ripe old age of 30, even into the 1800's the average lifespan of humans was only into their 40's to early 50's, whereas today it's now close to 80 so if your theory held much water we would see more mortality at younger ages today than 100 years ago and that's just not what the population as a whole is doing. Sanitation not living in our own fecal matter coupled with better overall hygiene and advances in medicine is what is pushing the longevity curve out to the organisms potential so that intrinsic disease such as cancer and cardiovascular disease are the major killers. Where even back in the 30s, before any antibiotics and few vaccines infectious disease took the majority of lives, most didn't live long enough for these intrinsic diseases to be major sources of mortality and morbidity. Our immune systems are remarkable and can battle diseases, the pathogens are also evolving new ways to get around the armor.

Again no disrespect for Paul, I actually follow a number of his feeding strategies and may be a reason why so many of my fish survived my recent outbreak of crypto so I think he's doing so many things right and would love to pick his brain and see his decades old tank, however to generalize based on one or 2 antidotal examples from his family and time in third world countries he leaves out that in general so many kids are born and die before their 5 birthday due to the diseases he says they are immune, and yes the ones who survive are immune to these diseases, this is at the core evolution in action again. Where you are spot on is better nutrition will help, but even with this medical intervention will also improve those odds. Paul keep doing what you are doing you have some amazing fish keeping skills and I applaud you for that, but I also truly think there is a place for medication and proper sanitation. Exposure to dirt is good living in your communities excrement is not. Polio and cholera are 2 still common 3rd world diseases that thrive in communities with poor sanitation and a main reason you have not heard of an,outbreak of either in developed countries that treat our sewage rather than have it tainting our drinking water.

My 0.02

 

[mcarroll]

Do immunologists and microbiologists ever get to study healthy functioning individuals?

Because I think most of us go to Paul for the perspective of seeing what healthy individuals (the fish, at least!) are like.

Healthy individuals are a rarity in this hobby. I suspect most people never see them. Let alone actually have experience with them.

Unlike in the wild where the majority are healthy.

It's also important to remember that the first line of defense of an immune system is to prevent "intrusion" in the first place.

This appears to be the first layer gone when health turns poor.

...which if I'm not mistaken is Paul's main point. [emoji6]

 

[Paul B]

Omykiss,thank you so much for responding. Being that this is Christmas eve (and the day before my birthday) I can't go into a long answer. But I can say that my tank has been disease free for at least 35 years. That is with me adding mud from the sea along with amphipods, worms, crabs, flounders, lobsters etc. almost every week in the summer and buying fish from any LFS where I find something interesting weather it has spots, parasites, weak knees, or psoriasis. I often get fish very cheap because they are infected with ich and have no problem curing them in a couple of days and adding them to my reef. Last year I bought a copperband very cheap because most of them in the store already died or were in the process of having last rites. A few months ago I added 3 shrimpfish, one died of ich the next day. I left it in there for the crabs. Diseses doesn't sem to mean much for my tank (so far) Of course I would rather buy healthy fish but sometimes I get a bargain.
Anyway, Merry Christmas and I do enjoy this conversation and am so glad a immunologist is here.

 

[omykiss001]

Do immunologists and microbiologists ever get to study healthy functioning individuals?

Because I think most of us go to Paul for the perspective of seeing what healthy individuals (the fish, at least!) are like.

Healthy individuals are a rarity in this hobby. I suspect most people never see them. Let alone actually have experience with them.

Unlike in the wild where the majority are healthy.

It's also important to remember that the first line of defense of an immune system is to prevent "intrusion" in the first place.

This appears to be the first layer gone when health turns poor.

...which if I'm not mistaken is Paul's main point. [emoji6]

Actually yes we spend most of our time looking at healthy as well as ill. Infectious disease docs are the ones who spend most of their time looking at the ill. As I said I do agree with Paul about his get them in spawning condition as heathy as they can be. This why I also said I follow many of his nutritional strategies.

Much of the current work in the field suggests there is a break down that causes some disease, the host get weak some diseases then get a foothold, staph infections are good example of this. We also have this bug living on our skin and respiratory tracts and most of the time our immune systems keep it check. However polio, Ebola, and many of the other nasties don't follow this rule and can cause disease in heathy individuals.

What I didn't agree with is the suggestion that somehow our ancestors were better able to fight off disease because they exposed it all the time, and we are too clean and medicated. The data does not show this to be true. Most studies show children who are exposed to lots of dirties have lower rates of allergy and autoimmune disorders, not better resistance to pathogens. Really the data suggest we teach our immune systems not to overreact to everything which is what allergies are.
From an evolutionary perspective the weak die off and the gene pool that survives is better able to handle the diseases. However evolution only works at the level of populations not individuals and is about getting to reproductive age leaving as many progeny as possible before you die, generally to a pathogen, which for most animals leads to you being prey for a predator before the disease gets you this is why most animals in the wild appear healthy because predators take out the ones with disease, does not mean there is no disease in the wild. One can take the population approach, but it does come at the cost to some animals who just don't have the high fitness evolution demands to survive some disease no matter how well we feed and nourish them.

As I said I think what Paul does from a get animals in top health is absolutely the right approach, but if there is signs of disease I also believe there is a time for medical intervention to help the individual survive. Most of us don't have tanks with as complete an ecosystem as Paul, and what might work in his tank will not work in mine for 10 years, he may actually have critters in his tank that keep,disease at bay, predator of the predator so to say, or that his very mature micro fauna can outcompete crypto or velvet during part of their lifecycle so his outbreaks never get to those proportions that become lethal for his fish.

Again huge respect to Paul and I hope one day I can say my tank is as mature and resilient as his that I don't have to worry much about disease, I think I. Still a long way from that goal post.

Again all in the spirit of healthy discussion nothing more.

 

[omykiss001]

Omykiss,thank you so much for responding. Being that this is Christmas eve (and the day before my birthday) I can't go into a long answer. But I can say that my tank has been disease free for at least 35 years. That is with me adding mud from the sea along with amphipods, worms, crabs, flounders, lobsters etc. almost every week in the summer and buying fish from any LFS where I find something interesting weather it has spots, parasites, weak knees, or psoriasis. I often get fish very cheap because they are infected with ich and have no problem curing them in a couple of days and adding them to my reef. Last year I bought a copperband very cheap because most of them in the store already died or were in the process of having last rites. A few months ago I added 3 shrimpfish, one died of ich the next day. I left it in there for the crabs. Diseses doesn't sem to mean much for my tank (so far) Of course I would rather buy healthy fish but sometimes I get a bargain.
Anyway, Merry Christmas and I do enjoy this conversation and am so glad a immunologist is here.

By the way have a most happy birthday!

Total respect to your fish keeping skills too [emoji1]

 

[mcarroll]

Actually yes we spend most of our time looking at healthy as well as ill. Infectious disease docs are the ones who spend most of their time looking at the ill. As I said I do agree with Paul about his get them in spawning condition as heathy as they can be. This why I also said I follow many of his nutritional strategies.

Much of the current work in the field suggests there is a break down that causes some disease, the host get weak some diseases then get a foothold, staph infections are good example of this. We also have this bug living on our skin and respiratory tracts and most of the time our immune systems keep it check. However polio, Ebola, and many of the other nasties don't follow this rule and can cause disease in heathy individuals.

I think there is some doubt as to the health of even non-sick people that eat typical Western diets. But after that, exposure to exotic germs is the main problem we are up against. (A side-effect of easy travel.)

What I didn't agree with is the suggestion that somehow our ancestors were better able to fight off disease because they exposed it all the time, and we are too clean and medicated. The data does not show this to be true. Most studies show children who are exposed to lots of dirties have lower rates of allergy and autoimmune disorders, not better resistance to pathogens. Really the data suggest we teach our immune systems not to overreact to everything which is what allergies are.

Am I misunderstanding or is there a contradiction or something here?

My understanding is that children who play in dirt - as in dirt on the ground outside - have less immune problems. I.e. They are more healthy. (BTW, all monkeys and gorillas eat dirt as part of their regular diet. Not accidentally. )

Pathogens are a different part of the picture, right?

Auto-immunity (from the invertebrates; arthropods) versus reactive immunity (from the quadrupeds; bony fish).

From an evolutionary perspective the weak die off and the gene pool that survives is better able to handle the diseases. However evolution only works at the level of populations not individuals and is about getting to reproductive age leaving as many progeny as possible before you die, generally to a pathogen, which for most animals leads to you being prey for a predator before the disease gets you this is why most animals in the wild appear healthy because predators take out the ones with disease, does not mean there is no disease in the wild. One can take the population approach, but it does come at the cost to some animals who just don't have the high fitness evolution demands to survive some disease no matter how well we feed and nourish them.

It sounds obvious to say given the topic, but that seems like a gross oversimplification.

Just looking at the lifecycle of infection for Ich in an individual fish suggests that it's a much more integrated and nuanced situation.

• Not even close to all infected fish succumb.
• The ones that don't succumb aren't simply survivors and they don't survive simply by developing immunity and wiping out the Ich.
• They become hosts to that that particular strain of Ich.
• That ich strain then has a leg up on the local ich population by having a stable breeding ground near other fish.
• Bonus to all the surviving fish's kin since they're now less likely to run into a strain of Ich for which they are not immune-capable.
• And bonus to that Ich strain cuz it didn't just get sloughed off into the void along with 99.99% of other pathogens.

So my perpetual question is: Is the fish getting infected even a bad thing, or is it a survival strategy?

At first blush it seems like there should be an easy answer to that.

As I said I think what Paul does from a get animals in top health is absolutely the right approach, but if there is signs of disease I also believe there is a time for medical intervention to help the individual survive.

Without doubt, treatments can help on a case by case basis.

Unfortunately there is a strong fixation by most folks on treatments and barely any discussion on the making of healthy fish.

As if there was no relation between health and lack of sickness.

Some folks have even confused treatments with the making of healthy fish.

Commonly, a treatment can have the opposite effect - making the subject even less healthy. It just happens to have an even more pronounced effect on the infection (hopefully killing it outright) - which is why we do it. This is especially true for antibiotics, but generally true of most treatments.

Last, even when treatment becomes the correct option, almost nobody actually identifies what they are treating. Because of this, almost all treatments you read about on forum sites like this are ill-advised.

Cheap microscopes are out there, but count how many conversations here involve one.

After treatment, fish that go on to receive typical care in a typical tank never get healthy.

Then you hear a few months after treatment that (e.g.) a coral was introduced and killed multiple fish in the tank or caused a fish wipeout.

Healthy fish do not get sick like this.

Most of us don't have tanks with as complete an ecosystem as Paul, and what might work in his tank will not work in mine for 10 years, he may actually have critters in his tank that keep,disease at bay, predator of the predator so to say, or that his very mature micro fauna can outcompete crypto or velvet during part of their lifecycle so his outbreaks never get to those proportions that become lethal for his fish.[....]

Paul's tank is not as exotic as it sometimes sounds IMO. Feeding our fish better (live or frozen-whole foods preferred) and subjecting our fish to fewer environmental stresses (overcrowding, etc) will get us at least most of the way there.

If you read up on aquaculture and probiotics, you'll find they have been successfully reducing incidence of disease - using essentially the same ingredients as PaulB - for 20 to 30 years in the case of shrimping. (Access to paid journals needed for many of those articles though...)

 

[Humblefish]

My 2 cents is this:

1. Do everything you can to keep diseases out of your tank AND
2. Do everything you can to keep the animals you own healthy (maintain good water quality, stable parameters, proper nutrition, etc.)

Sounds like a winning combination to me. The best of both worlds.

 

[Paul B]

Mcarrol, Merry Christmas. By the way, I do own a microscope and use it often. When a fish dies I normally autopsy it to see how it was doing. My fish normally die of old age so I rarely, if ever find anything wrong with them but the fish I sometimes buy (or get for free) in very bad condition often do not make it and I want to see what the problem was. In thin fish like copperbands or tangs it is commonly an internal injury with bleeding that probably happened during collection. I see this often and there is no cure or hope for such a fish. You normally also find a few gill parasites on new fish but they are of no concern as long as you can get that fish acclimated and eating the proper foods which I am assuming very few people feed. Flakes and pellets are not the correct food and will not get or keep a fish in breeding condition except for some damsels like clownfish. Clownfish it seems will spawn even if they live on a diet of wood and Coca Cola.