A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!
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A. grandis
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Sorry for speaking the truth. That's exactly how most people see it!
Couldn't be farther from the truth...mh's never been a threat.
I belive some think LEDs are a threat though..
Just tired of hearing how natural and "superior" MH's are..
and how "toy like" they are....
Their demise will have NOTHING to do with any attitudes or opinions here.
There is no need for a "crusade".
The 2 will coexist for as long as manufacturers produce COMMERCIAL MH's.
Trying to drum up "new business" to protect ones own is disingenuous.
Or in the case of Tuillo..sales.
Lets get real your belief is if more go to mh there will be more for you.
and that is fine.. in a sense...or at least err "human nature".
If it was altruistic you would help both mh and led users succeed.
As to 6500k's I often stated the opinion of others that it was a de-facto excellent light.
But here is the point, even when led's weren't "born" yet it appears few used said bulb.
I assume it was a matter of personal look (overall i.e too yellow) and pigment expression(no blue "pop", technically just masked but I digress).
the reason why "blue" metal halides proliferated.
Nobody then designed an LED to match a 6500k light source.
Right or wrong that is how markets work..
Now why was the 6500k successful.
First all as an over driven light source is was like 33% more convertable wattage than a "normal" halide.
This translated in to tons more photons.
Next even though visually it was 6500k it had more blue photons than even a 20000k radium.
Point is pointing to a 6500k and saying "see what halides can do" and attributing an entire class based on ONE very specific bulb or really a "system"
. Well ridiculous.
Look at the PPFD figures here. Iwasakis are 2x the par output of other lamps in the same "class".
top Iwasaki, middle Hamilton 14000K, next Radium 20000k
250W Mogul base bulbs
Product Review: Spectral Analysis Of 250w Mogul Base Metal Halide Lamps - Part I
This is a 2-part series covering a number of new lamps that have recently hit the market.
reefs.com
Product Review: Spectral Analysis of 250W Mogul base Metal Halide Lamps – PART II
This article presents the data on the remaining nine 250W mogul base lamps along with the comparison of all the 250W mogul lamps.
reefs.com
| HQI (M80) | 373 | 122 | 3.23 | 189.6 | 6266 |
| HQI (M80) | 331 | 122.2 | 2.91 | 99.3 | na |
| HQI (M80) | 333 | 121.8 | 2.94 | 85.3 | na |
GEE, I wonder why they grew corals faster than other mh's.. /s
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A. grandis
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The reason why Iwasaki grew corals faster than other bulbs and produced those amazing pigments is because it was the "PAR monster", as many called it.Couldn't be farther from the truth...mh's never been a threat.
I belive some think LEDs are a threat though..
Just tired of hearing how natural and "superior" MH's are..
and how "toy like" they are....
Their demise will have NOTHING to do with any attitudes or opinions here.
There is no need for a "crusade".
The 2 will coexist for as long as manufacturers produce COMMERCIAL MH's.
Trying to drum up "new business" to protect ones own is disingenuous.
Or in the case of Tuillo..sales.
Lets get real your belief is if more go to mh there will be more for you.
and that is fine.. in a sense...or at least err "human nature".
If it was altruistic you would help both mh and led users succeed.
As to 6500k's I often stated the opinion of others that it was a de-facto excellent light.
But here is the point, even when led's weren't "born" yet it appears few used said bulb.
I assume it was a matter of personal look (overall i.e too yellow) and pigment expression(no blue "pop", technically just masked but I digress).
the reason why "blue" metal halides proliferated.
Nobody then designed an LED to match a 6500k light source.
Right or wrong that is how markets work..
Now why was the 6500k successful.
First all as an over driven light source is was like 33% more convertable wattage than a "normal" halide.
This translated in to tons more photons.
Next even though visually it was 6500k it had more blue photons than even a 20000k radium.
Point is pointing to a 6500k and saying "see what halides can do" and attributing an entire class based on ONE very specific bulb or really a "system"
. Well ridiculous.
Look at the PPFD figures here. Iwasakis are 2x the par output of other lamps in the same "class".
top Iwasaki, middle Hamilton 14000K, next Radium 20000k
250W Mogul base bulbs
Product Review: Spectral Analysis Of 250w Mogul Base Metal Halide Lamps - Part I
This is a 2-part series covering a number of new lamps that have recently hit the market.Ballast.................................................watts................input voltage......amps.....................ppfd........................K temp...........Product Review: Spectral Analysis of 250W Mogul base Metal Halide Lamps – PART II
This article presents the data on the remaining nine 250W mogul base lamps along with the comparison of all the 250W mogul lamps.
HQI (M80) 373 122 3.23 189.6 6266
HQI (M80) 331 122.2 2.91 99.3 na
HQI (M80) 333 121.8 2.94 85.3 na
GEE, I wonder why they grew corals faster than other mh's.. /s
Eric R.
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You can grow corals under MH, T5, LED, or any combination of those lights. It's really personal preference.
What spectrum a particular fixture provides depends on how it is designed. Different LEDs produce light of different wavelengths. Tulio showed an LED fixture that provides light in the UV-B wavelength range. They make LED lights that produce this wavelength for reptiles already. So someone could make an LED light that has those wavelengths that MH has that most or all commercial LED fixtures lack. It's not that LED can't, it's that they don't.
The next question is, is it necessary? Putting LEDs in at those wavelengths means you aren't putting in LEDs at other wavelengths. So if a manufacturer is going to do it, or if someone is going to buy it, theoretically there should be a reason to do so. That's hopefully how R&D is supposed to work. I personally want the R&D done before I buy a product, not after.
If you want the wavelength of a MH, buy a MH. If you want the functionality of an LED, buy an LED. If you like the look of T5, buy T5. Not sure what all the hubbub is about.
What spectrum a particular fixture provides depends on how it is designed. Different LEDs produce light of different wavelengths. Tulio showed an LED fixture that provides light in the UV-B wavelength range. They make LED lights that produce this wavelength for reptiles already. So someone could make an LED light that has those wavelengths that MH has that most or all commercial LED fixtures lack. It's not that LED can't, it's that they don't.
The next question is, is it necessary? Putting LEDs in at those wavelengths means you aren't putting in LEDs at other wavelengths. So if a manufacturer is going to do it, or if someone is going to buy it, theoretically there should be a reason to do so. That's hopefully how R&D is supposed to work. I personally want the R&D done before I buy a product, not after.
If you want the wavelength of a MH, buy a MH. If you want the functionality of an LED, buy an LED. If you like the look of T5, buy T5. Not sure what all the hubbub is about.
Eric R.
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Also, regarding the "which fixture grows corals better", I think the only people primarily concerned about coral growth rates are those with new tanks that are growing out coral colonies from frags, those with frag/grow out tanks, or coral farmers. When it comes to coral health, I personally think a lot of other husbandry practices are far more important than the light fixture you are using, as long as it's a decent one. Like I said, a good LED, T5, or MH can all grow coral. I don't need massive PAR numbers as long as I'm getting the right amounts to make my corals happy. Someone else may feel differently. If so, they should choose the equipment best suited to meet their particular goals.
There's no one right setup that will work for everyone. People can use the same equipment and get very different results. As they say, there are many ways to skin a reef. Choose the one that works best for you.
There's no one right setup that will work for everyone. People can use the same equipment and get very different results. As they say, there are many ways to skin a reef. Choose the one that works best for you.
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A. grandis
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I think Tullio's only goal in that video was to show the facts of each technology. It's good for the hobby to know the differences and having people to be able to choose what they want. Any rumor we had about LEDs to be the same or even better than halides needs to stop, I guess. They are just different options.
I have a feeling there should be more to come from Tullio after this.
areefer01
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Do you think that maybe the video would have been more receptive had say someone in attendance that actually ran studies of coral growth, par, pur, UV, among other things in oceanic settings? The whole science thing vs the appearance of sales and infomercial?
Not knocking it nor is this a better than statement but rather bringing in someone who actually has field work and experience on the subject.
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A. grandis
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I am not sure if there is anyone better than Tullio to show what he did, the way he did. We need to understand that he sells halides, but he also sells LEDs. He promotes both. The facts he exposes about halides wouldn't be more if he didn't sell them. For the past decade I've heard so many people saying they were going to do this and that to compare and prove LEDs X halides... those guys never came back with their results.
There is a very important aspect that people either don't know, forget, or ignore: every system is different, every individual coral is different and most light applications can be used differently, so with such complex group of variables, we need to understand that any comparison would have to be observed and done properly with many types of corals, many different settings, etc.. In my opinion no one would be able to come with a specific conclusion doing such comparisons., but generally speaking we could see the comparisons and it would still be very interesting, though!
In the end of the day we all have our ways to reef and personal taste for lights, I guess... People don't want to spend time nor money doing this things nowadays.
I liked to see him with his instruments showing the numbers.. like I've said, I think there is more to come...
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Interesting thread. I still maintain that corals can be grown successfully under all kinds of lighting: MH, LED, T5, T8, PC, and everything outside or in between. In the end, it all comes down to personal preference. I support keeping all options open for anyone who wants to use them.
I will say as others have noted in here that far more threads are started to try to argue against LEDs by the MH crowd than vice versa. Most LED users don't see a need to argue against MH, so I'm not sure where the idea that LED users/makers see MH as a threat comes from.
I do believe that preference among hobbyists will almost always come down to convenience, and that is likely why the shift in the hobby has gone largely in favor of LEDs. Controllability and low maintenance are HIGH in priority for most hobbyists.
I will say as others have noted in here that far more threads are started to try to argue against LEDs by the MH crowd than vice versa. Most LED users don't see a need to argue against MH, so I'm not sure where the idea that LED users/makers see MH as a threat comes from.
I do believe that preference among hobbyists will almost always come down to convenience, and that is likely why the shift in the hobby has gone largely in favor of LEDs. Controllability and low maintenance are HIGH in priority for most hobbyists.
Eric R.
Well-Known Member
That video didn't actually demonstrate anything other than that the halides he tested have a different spectrum than the radion gen 6 pro LED fixture he tested. There was no evidence provided in that video about whether the spectrum of popular halide bulbs as compared to that of popular LED fixtures has any important, measureable significance to most reefers. There was plenty of speculation, but no evidence. I'll be more than happy to watch another video with evidence if and when Tulio makes one. In the meantime, I don't think anything new can be said about halides vs LEDs that hasn't already been said 100 times over the last ten years, as there wasn't any new information provided.
Tuillo has the knowledge and capability to filter out uv and IR in a halide.
Experiments need to minimize differences in test conditions..
IF somebody REALLY wanted to analyze the effects of IR/UV it would be easiest and best just to
use mh's and filters to FIRST demonstrate the differences.
See if it is even worth it.. Baby steps.
The paper I posted using the tanning bed mh's and filters is a cookbook for the test.
Anyone can walk around and say.. "see this doesn't have this or that" but without EVIDENCE on what it means it's just propaganda.
Maybe pt 2 and 3 are the answer.. ..maybe...
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BurgerFish
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Metal Halide is a superior ligh for a reef. Sadly the technology is dying.
Now we stick with expensive led, that you need to replace every 3.5-4y completely.
Now we stick with expensive led, that you need to replace every 3.5-4y completely.
cvicente
Active Member
MH, T5, LED, hybrids, all grow coral, it goes down to choice and application. I can't believe to this day we are still debating "what's the best light" issue. Do with your money whatever you please, it's your money anyways. Don't get caught on marketing strategies, read, do research and come to your own conclusions.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
It is a preference and hobbyist shouldn't care one way or another what the other is using.
Not all kits are expensive nor do they need to be replenished in that timeline. Proper research and design mitigates both of these points. We should really stop perpetuating these types of statements.
Well said. I have read all the articles and have run halides longer than most here, 30+ years.
Halides are awesome and really cant be questioned, imo.
Better than is subjective at best analysis so?
That said leds will only get better than they are now and halides will hold thier own as long as they are available.
Guys and gals just pick what you want as both do the job quite well.
Im setting up the old nano with a 150 de 14k halide. I will document the results in a build thread.
I am doing this to document the halide build vs the 16hds.
I suspect the halide will give faster growth to most corals from past experience.
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