Achilles tang ich

[4FordFamily]

"The only successful "immune response" to C. irritans I am aware of is this 2007 tudy: http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf"

No there are many -

"In most studies, mucous antibodies have been deemed incapable of immobilizing theronts. The parasite attaches, drops off on schedule encysts and the life cycle begins a new."

This is absolutely incorrect - the assessment of immunity is actually based on the reduction in trophants released from the fish with prior exposure.

In the table below: Groups A, B and C are groups which have varying degrees of prior exposure. Note the trophant release counts.

"As far as waiting for ich to "self destruct", that takes 100 generations or so."

I'm not sure where you got this data - if you have a source it would be appreciated. The best sources I have found actually remark on how difficult ich is to study for precisely the reason that strains die out so quickly - with one remarable strain lasting 34 generations while the vast majority extinguished much sooner. 10 months is more typical of the longer lasting strains - not four years.

"Don't know what the status of an "ich vaccine" is, but here's some work that was being done on one back in 1999"

Work continues - the issues with both of your citations is that these examine the imuunity imparted by protein fractions injected into the fish which is very different from the naturally aquired immunity from direct exposure. None of the studies of isolated proteins has been very successful to date generally - it seems that the immune system of differing species of fish may target different protein sequences - so a generalized vaccine is proving difficult.

But naturally aquired immunity has been observed in every fish species which I have seen studied. Everything from Tangs to Talapia.

You need to understand the scientific difference between a resistance and an immunity.

If fish were ever truly immune, one could add fish later that are parasite free and they would stay that way because the immunity starved out the population the same as going fallow would. This does not happen in ich management tanks. You may add a fish that isn't particularly susceptible and you do not notice spots or symptoms but it just built a resistance. Other fish show symptoms but they go away as they build their own resistance.

The other issue with ich management is that it takes a slow toll over the period of time they're in captivity, and you're only one stress event away from catastrophe. Their resistance will lose out to sheer volume of parasites in these instances. Power outages, heater malfunctions, water chemistry changes, adding new fish in some cases, and many others which would otherwise just potentially be stressful events will be stressful and deadly. If not at first, the next generations of this parasite will find the stressed hosts to be "sitting ducks" with a vastly reduced immune response/protection.

So a few days to a week after the stress event you would lose fish rather than during the event. Or you would lose additional fish when they would otherwise recover. Instead of recovering they're battling an onslaught of parasites and thus do not have the energy or immune system to win.

It can even be the mere act of adding a tang or having one fish so stressed that it's resistance is grossly weakened that allows the parasite populations to grow exponentially and turn what had been a relatively benign ich management situation in to catastrophe.

This is why powder blue tangs and Achilles tangs are often blamed for "crashing tanks" and called "ich magnets". Ich was already there but their inhabitants kept the numbers in check and very few could complete their life cycle. Throwing fish with almost zero defense in this situation is like throwing gas on a fire. Ich was already there it was just given a very easy host for quick population growth. The rest of your fish may now lose the battle because of the sheer numbers. It's an odds game. Too many attempts on one fish to infect reduces their immune effectiveness. Before you know it another fish is compromised, and the cycle continues. A new fish loses then a new one, etc.

I speak from much experience.

 

[4FordFamily]

I understand but that is the exact reason I'm wary to pull all 12 fish out, stuff them in a small tank and treat them with harsh chemicals because one fish has ich....I feel (in this case) I have a better chance of keeping most of the fish if I try to manage it.....As you said though I likely won't be successful with the acanthurus

At one point I had 10 tangs, 4 Angels, 3 wrasse, 2 gobies, a flame hawk, and a copperband butterfly in a 55 gal qt. uncycled. I just did 85% daily water changes for the first few weeks. Worked fine I lost only a melanarus wrasse.

 

[Humblefish]

The problem with immunity is ALL fish in your DT would need to somehow acquire it. This one fish that seems immune isn't helping much when all your other fish are dying left & right. The "do nothing, let the fish's immune system handle it" approach has probably been tried at some point by everyone in this hobby (myself included.) If that strategy actually worked, there would be no need for a fish disease forum and I'd be out of a job.

 

[robert]

"The "do nothing, let the fish's immune system handle it" approach has probably been tried at some point by everyone in this hobby (myself included.) If that strategy actually worked, there would be no need for a fish disease forum and I'd be out of a job. "

But of course I never suggested a "do nothing approach". What I said was that it is entirely possible to leep ich in check - well below lethal levels - through adequate filteration - for all fish including tangs.

"An alternative is simply good mechanical filteration - both ich and velvet are easily stripped from the water column. A system with adequate mechanical filteration will maintain ich below lethal levels until resident fish develop immunity on their own. It also has the advantage in that it also eliminates other members of the oodium genus which taget other members of your system as well as any other parasite of corals, fish, pods and worms which has a free swimming stage.

Any fish death by ich or velvet is IMO an indication of inadequate filteration in a reef system."
​

And yes the proper term here is immunity and not resistance. A fish wouldn't develop a resistance to ich - it would develop an immunity to ich. Resistance is a term usually applied to an inate characteristic - one that a fish is born with. For example - I would say that mandarine gobies are resistant to ich due to their slime coat - resitance is not an aquired trait - its an inborn trait. Immunity on the other hand, can be aquired, be it total, partial, temporary or transient - but in all cases it is mediated by the fishes immune system.

Adequate filtration is essential to keeping healthy stock - regardless if one practices QT or not. It is effective in managing not only ich - but velvet and a host of other pathogens with a free swimming life stage. Not only does this apply for fish but for all creatures you strive to care for in your system, It applies to the control of POC, algae and bacteria. It will assist in maintaining water quality and reduce secondary infections resulting from injury. Management through filtration is essential and it is not a recepie for disaster. Quite to the contary - a belief that quarantine alone will protect your system against all pathogens without adequate filteration IS THE recepie for disaster.

Most wild caught fish do not carry the antibodies to ich as the parasite dilution on a reef keeps makes the infection a relatively rare event. To simulate that dilution in our tanks we employ mechanical filteration systems, proper setup and design.

Ich doesn't kill on the reef any more than the ocassional flea will kill your dog but a major infestation might. You don't soak your dog in leathal levels of insecticide, quarantine him in a tiny kennel for months on end and let your house go fallow to eliminate the flea. To do so would be cruel and unnecessary. You vaccume routinely - and wash bedding etc. The same principle applies to your tank.

What I see is an over-reliance on QT and a lack of understanding of the population dynamics of ich and velvet and how to address them. If you must rely on perfect QT then your tank is setup incorrectly to start with.

And yes - I too have many years of experience - and have not killed dozens of tangs.

​

 

[4FordFamily]

Sorry but a fish will not build an immunity to ich. Bring me 10 tangs with "an immunity" and I will add a few acanthurus tangs to the mix and watch what happens. Or, I will put them in a qt with ich and watch the stress and other triggers bring about ich.

A truly immune population of fish in a tank would be 100% akin to leaving a tank fallow and the parasite would die off.

In practice, what ACTUALLY happens is that you add a new fish, and not only does it come down with ich (even if you treated it prior to adding it) but if it fights it for awhile and slowly loses the battle the sheer numbers of the parasite creates an onslaught to the very RESISTANT fish currently there and eventually they get a few spots. Even if you don't see the spots, the parasite lives out of site on the gills where it is easier to attack.

I've done this for years. I could add completely infested fish to my tank. On occasion my existing fish may show a spot or even develop a minor parasitic infestation but they would fight it off meanwhile the new addition did not make it. I've also thought I had a parasite free tank, treated in copper AND done proper TTM so I know the new fish was ich free, added it to the tank and the new fish got ich.

Or I quarantined some fish for months without any symptoms ever, added them to the display (where my resistant fish did not allow the parasite to take hold) and they got ich. They had little resistance because they had not much been exposed. Only when a horrible infestation continues for a week or more did the sheer numbers sometimes affect my very resistant fish.

The sheer fact that stress events, new fish, etc. cause ich in new or existing fish is 100% indicative that fish are not immune, rather resistant. Again, a tank of truly immune fish would be identical to leaving your tank fallow for years even, and they would starve and die without a host.

This is not what happens. People "feed it away", "treat with some miracle cure" or "wait it out". What really happened is that the fish developed its own resistance and overcame it. It still lurks and ever so slightly affects the fish and at some point eventually it will get the upper hand. It is one more thing the fish must use energy for (maintaining resistance). Eventually it will lose.

My "ich management" methods worked pretty well for a decade or more. The exception was most acanthurus tangs. While I had a few limited successes with a few of them, 24/25 failed.

The stresses of being kept in a small tank when they're accustomed to swimming many miles each day, the very thin slime coat, the fact that they're never still long enough to get too serious of an infection (in the wild), the immense dilution of parasite populations in the wild vs the glass cage sitting duck situation they have here, and the inability of parasites to reproduce as quickly in the wild due to the difficulty of finding hosts - particularly those with very weak immune systems where they can take over, all play a part in this struggle in captivity.

 

[Humblefish]

I think what @robert is partially alluding to is using a DE filter in your DT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diatom-filter-for-treating-external-parasites.212429/

I admit, it is certainly worthy of experimentation to see if results can be duplicated from the past. I'm getting ready to move out one of my DTs so I can use that space to conduct experiments using a diatom filter.

 

[robert]

Again you miss the point...and again you fall back to strawman arguments...I've never claimed anyone can "feed it away" or "wait it out" and again you mix up resistance with immunity.

I presently keep three species of Acanthurus tangs in my system - Acanthurus achilles, Acanthurus fowleri and Acanthurus guttatus - along with several other species of tangs - in a tank which encountered an active outbreak of velvet eight months ago. No new fish in the system, neither the fowleri and guttatus, have shown any symptoms of ich or velvet even though the tank was never allowed to go fallow nor was any QT or other treatment, other than filtration, attempted after the initial outbreak.

Acanthurus tangs can and do survive exposure to both ich and marine velvet and do develop an immune response. This immune response coupled with adequate filtration, keeps the pathogen well below lethal levels and results in extinction of the pathogen within in a few cycles. This is a mathmatical fact. The premise is testable - and has been tested. I explain in the thread humblefish cited.

While I use DE, the same results would be seen with any suitable filtration system on any well designed system.

 

[Eric Pan]

Has anyone ever had an achilles tang beat ich without treatment?

I personally have no issues with not just the Achilles tang but Gangs in general. I never QT, and just feed twice a day with lots of frozen brine and seaweed. I have a 75 gallon system. (I know too small for an Achilles but I’m selling him soon). But he’s been ich free since the fish store and in a relatively cramped space. Getting them to feed is the most important thing.

 

[eeeeek]

I hope you find this thread useful.

Please, please, please do not follow in my footsteps I left doing what you describe before you finally come to the realizations I did.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

I know this is a very old thread, but this is exactly what I needed to hear. I battled velvet by going fallow for 6 weeks and that worked. I got my tank up and going again after the fallow and QT every new fish that comes in. The only two survivors of the velvet, a pair of clowns, were in one QT and new fish in another. When I put new fish in after the QT period, I noticed a little white grain of salt on the tail of the CBB. I ignored it. I googled ich and came up with many theories about ich management (some by 3Fords...congrats on the 4th) and since that fit what I wanted to hear, I went down that path. UV sterilizer, regular feedings, etc. Then I found it...my holy grail of fish, an Achilles tang that was actually eating.

I got the Achilles how and put it in QT with copper. I followed the procedures. I transferred him to the main tank with no issues and was happy. Then I transferred over the purple tang who had always been a bit aggressive, so he would be the last fish in the tank. It was all out tang warfare. The Purple went after the Achilles and then the Sohal and Achilles ganged up on the purple. Things settled down, but a little while later I saw it...ich on the purple and the Achilles. I googled ich management again and many people told me exactly what I wanted to hear. The fish could user their immune system to fight it off. On my final google search I found this thread and went down the rabbit hole. I then immediately tore apart my DT, got all the fish and and transferred them to my QTs and put the aquascape back together with the corals and the inverts in the DT. I'm starting the fallow while the fish are in copper. I'm seeing evidence of ich on more of the fish now, too. This all went down yesterday.

So I'm going fallow for 76 days, just 40 days after completing the 6 week fallow for velvet. It feels like a massive defeat, but it is what's best.

Once again, thanks for your candor.

 

[4FordFamily]

I know this is a very old thread, but this is exactly what I needed to hear. I battled velvet by going fallow for 6 weeks and that worked. I got my tank up and going again after the fallow and QT every new fish that comes in. The only two survivors of the velvet, a pair of clowns, were in one QT and new fish in another. When I put new fish in after the QT period, I noticed a little white grain of salt on the tail of the CBB. I ignored it. I googled ich and came up with many theories about ich management (some by 3Fords...congrats on the 4th) and since that fit what I wanted to hear, I went down that path. UV sterilizer, regular feedings, etc. Then I found it...my holy grail of fish, an Achilles tang that was actually eating.

I got the Achilles how and put it in QT with copper. I followed the procedures. I transferred him to the main tank with no issues and was happy. Then I transferred over the purple tang who had always been a bit aggressive, so he would be the last fish in the tank. It was all out tang warfare. The Purple went after the Achilles and then the Sohal and Achilles ganged up on the purple. Things settled down, but a little while later I saw it...ich on the purple and the Achilles. I googled ich management again and many people told me exactly what I wanted to hear. The fish could user their immune system to fight it off. On my final google search I found this thread and went down the rabbit hole. I then immediately tore apart my DT, got all the fish and and transferred them to my QTs and put the aquascape back together with the corals and the inverts in the DT. I'm starting the fallow while the fish are in copper. I'm seeing evidence of ich on more of the fish now, too. This all went down yesterday.

So I'm going fallow for 76 days, just 40 days after completing the 6 week fallow for velvet. It feels like a massive defeat, but it is what's best.

Once again, thanks for your candor.

Thanks so much for the reply. Old thread or not, this is EXACTLY what I intended by my post/correction. I truly thought it would work, and was WAY too stubborn to realize that simply -- it does not. You did the right thing. Just make sure you treat them properly and follow instructions to a T.

I now buy my fish pre-QT'd because of the hassle. I know it's not fun, I've done it for years now. I will say though that it is a WONDERFUL feeling to have a 180G and 500G systems without ich, velvet, flukes, and a myriad of other issues that I'd constantly have to worry about. Only fish that I QT'd myself or that came from one of FEW trusted sources (Such as @tsmaquatics) and I've not had issues in years. Losing fish in quarantine is awful and frustrating, but I know the fish in my display tanks can live happy, healthy lives. Of all the problems I deal with in life these days -- this is completely off of my radar. This hobby is exponentially more enjoyable for me now.

Anyhow, I am glad. I remember typing that thread/article and saying "If this reaches only one person, and saves just a fish or two -- it was totally worth it to admit wrong and swallow my pride and admit wrong publicly". So thank you for that affirmation, and best of luck to you!

 

[eeeeek]

An update: I lost the Achilles and the Purple. It looked like they both might make it, but you know how the hobby goes. My Naso (which has been a tough fish for me) is looking great, the Blue now has no signs of ich (he had it so bad I though it might be velvet again), the Sohal is great as are all the other fish, including my CBB. I'm running two QT tanks for the long haul and focusing on the corals in the main.

 

[eeeeek]

76 day fallow period done. I put the fish back in the tank and I'm so happy to see life in the tank again that's not an algae bloom (fun things happen when you take most of the bioload out of your tank).

 

[MIKE1979]

Thanks....lets see what he has to say. In the past I've been pretty successful with ich managment. I'm hoping i can hear some success with acanthurus tangs.....

I have a Yellow tang ,Blue Hippo ,Purple and Sailfing tang and they all had ich at the same time and survived, now I just added an achilles tang and is showing some spots 3 days later after adding to tank. The fish is looking happy and is eating well lets see what happens hopefully nothing fingers