Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[VintageReefer]

On the other hand, after years of a clean display, I had to remove a couple rocks(to remove a overgrown coral) ; this exposed clean white rock to light... guess what happened..(?) All the uglies showed up,one after the next(gha,cyano, dino) on that bare rock. I did nothing about it and it went away in a few months. Why? If the refugium fixed it to begin with, why did it show up? Why did it go away without any changes? I'm no scientist, so my best understanding of what is happening is going to come from those who are scientists, those who are much more experienced than me- who are have nothing to gain from me, nothing to sell; those who just try to share the knowledge.

The answer to this is you caused a disruption in the natural balance that was established. You removed rock that was providing filtration and shade, and exposed rock that was not previously exposed to light. It lacks the surface film that all things develop within the reef.

For anyone interested, this article explains the process and what happened

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/periphyton-on-your-rocks.849445/

 

[Garf]

The answer to this is you caused a disruption in the natural balance that was established. You removed rock that was providing filtration and shade, and exposed rock that was not previously exposed to light. It lacks the surface film that all things develop within the reef.

For anyone interested, this article explains the process and what happened

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/periphyton-on-your-rocks.849445/

But none of that photosynthetic stuff is negatively affected by a scrubber? Very convenient indeed.

 

[VintageReefer]

It is convenient. Almost as if algae was one of the natural forms of filtration for oceans and lakes. Kinda like it was designed for it on some higher level. Crazy right?

 

[Garf]

It is convenient. Almost as if algae was one of the natural forms of filtration for oceans and lakes. Kinda like it was designed for it on some higher level. Crazy right?

This thread is not about the food web, it’s developed into growing a little algae in a box can prevent display algae. For what it’s worth, when your circulation went down in the scrubber box the lights will have cooked the algae, perhaps causing fragmentation (known as sloughing). The increased pH at the algal surface could have done all sorts of bad things, it can even precipitate phosphate directly on to the algal cells. On your build thread you indicate minimal feeding, one downside to this is a low population of unseen critters. You have correlated the effect to not filtering the water with the scrubber, another interpretation could be that without the scrubber, the outbreak in the tank may not have happened.

 

[VintageReefer]

My algae thinned out but still survived despite the pump dying. The sump still has water running through it, the enclosure has holes in it so we have water flow, reduced, but still have flow, but growth basically stopped. It survived and was not cooked.

How can you say I have a low population of unseen critters? My sump and tank is loaded with life. The sand and rock in my tank and sump has been live and in use for 10+ years. I have worms and pods and tons of stuff living all throughout the sand and rock and no fish that feed on them.

I have gone through phases of low feeding when I had less coral, and now I feed fish 7x a week and corals 5x a week. Has no impact on my lack of display algae or my parameters. Feeding more = harvest more algae from the scrubber. Display is algae free regardless. I’ve drastically increased feeding for a few reasons but noticed it has not impacted my numbers and has not caused any algae blooms or outbreaks

if the scrubber is my primary form of filtration and the air pump dies, and the scrubber stops functioning, then you can’t blame the scrubber, technically it’s the air pumps fault. And you allude that if I didn’t have the scrubber would the problem never have happened - false assumption. The algae would have been there from the start without it! It proves the scrubber keeps it managed and does it’s intended job. Fixing the air pump fixed the issues caused from the air pump dying

I have read your posts from the algae scrubber forum years ago, seen your diy designed in action, and read your 15 page build thread where you used a scrubber and a replaceable bag of sand for filtration. And saw your success. I don’t know if you are playing devils advocate or just trying to stir conversation, but your history seems to be a scrubber supporter for over a decade and you currently seem to be against them for some reason. I don’t get it really.

 

[Thales]

So, without more information, what would you think is happening in these ats success stories? Tank maturity/ competition, better husbandry, bacteria, what?

I don't think we can tell without more info. In most cases I have followed up on, herbivory is top of the list

 

[Garf]

My algae thinned out but still survived despite the pump dying. The sump still has water running through it, the enclosure has holes in it so we have water flow, reduced, but still have flow, but growth basically stopped. It survived and was not cooked.

How can you say I have a low population of unseen critters? My sump is loaded with life. I have worms and pods and tons living in the sand and rock.

I have gone through phases of low feeding when I had less coral, and now I feed fish 7x a week and corals 5x a week. Has no impact on my lack of display algae or my parameters. Feeding more = harvest more algae from the scrubber. Display is algae free regardless. I’ve drastically increased feeding for a few reasons but noticed it has not impacted my numbers and has not caused any algae blooms or outbreaks

if the scrubber is my primary form of filtration and the air pump dies, and the scrubber stops functioning, then you can’t blame the scrubber, technically it’s the air pumps fault. And you allude that if I didn’t have the scrubber would the problem never have happened - false assumption. The algae would have been there from the start without it! It proves the scrubber keeps it managed and does it’s intended job. Fixing the air pump fixed the issues caused from the air pump dying

I have read your posts from the algae scrubber forum years ago, seen your diy designed in action, and read your 15 page build thread where you used a scrubber and a replaceable bag of sand for filtration. And saw your success. I don’t know if you are playing devils advocate or just trying to stir conversation, but your history seems to be a scrubber supporter for over a decade and you currently seem to be against them for some reason. I don’t get it really.

I never ran a scrubber to remove display algae, it was mainly so I could feed my fish more without sending N and P through the roof, and minimizing waterchanges which it did well. Anyone suggesting algae won’t remove nutrients would be foolish. I’ve always had an issue with reducing nutrients to such low levels that it can starve the tank flora, even when zero N and P was the target.

 

[VintageReefer]

Great! @Garf I plan to add a tomini tang and was hoping it would eat the algae my scrubber produces. Tired of seeing it go to waste everytime I harvest. And I would like a larger fish to add some activity. I’ve never actually fed my fish or tank algae from the scrubber - do you think a tomini would eat it?

 

[Garf]

Great! @Garf I plan to add a tomini tang and was hoping it would eat the algae my scrubber produces. Tired of seeing it go to waste everytime I harvest. And I would like a larger fish to add some activity. I’ve never actually fed my fish or tank algae from the scrubber - do you think a tomini would eat it?

I believe some folks do, never tried it myself as far as I remember. I always kept a stock of Nori.

 

[Mikeltee]

If it's fresh from the ocean the chances are high. I've noticed that once you start spoiling fish in Rods Reef, they abandon their utilitarian duties. My file fish hasn't seen an anenome is 3 years. He used to hunt rock all day. Now he begs like the rest of the clan. He's still my favorite.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Anyone suggesting algae won’t remove nutrients would be foolish.

1. Is removing nutrients one way to control algae?
-"5 Effective Ways to Control Algae in Reef Aquariums"
3rd one is
"Remove Nutrients From Aquarium"
(source: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...ctive-ways-to-control-algae-in-reef-aquariums)

2. Does algae consume nutrients?
-"Algae use natural nutrients available in the sea for their growth" (source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8949465/)

3. Is the algae that consumed the nutrients that you need reduced to remove the algae in the first place easily removed from my DIY algae "refugium-thingy"?
-Absolutely(source: me)

 

[thecodingart]

As a newer refer, I had a hard time and was seriously considering not doing a refugium in preference of an Algae scrubber.

Most comparisons led me as a healthy refugium should accomplish the same thing and more while an algae scrubber would be hyper efficient at this specific task.

TBH I dont entirely understand the benefits of having a scrubber over a refugium given the scrubber’s space, placement and plumbing requirements.

 

[jason2459]

As a newer refer, I had a hard time and was seriously considering not doing a refugium in preference of an Algae scrubber.

Most comparisons led me as a healthy refugium should accomplish the same thing and more while an algae scrubber would be hyper efficient at this specific task.

TBH I dont entirely understand the benefits of having a scrubber over a refugium given the scrubber’s space, placement and plumbing requirements.

You can devote the area that would be used for algae to be filled with rock and turn into a cryptic zone. The algae harvest can sit aside or on top. That's how my sump is setup. RUGF bottom, dolomite, rubble and rock on top growing what ever wants to grow in the dark slow flow. I've recently seen an explosion of pineapple sponges.

Still considered a refugium. So you can have both.

 

[VintageReefer]

As a newer refer, I had a hard time and was seriously considering not doing a refugium in preference of an Algae scrubber.

Most comparisons led me as a healthy refugium should accomplish the same thing and more while an algae scrubber would be hyper efficient at this specific task.

TBH I dont entirely understand the benefits of having a scrubber over a refugium given the scrubber’s space, placement and plumbing requirements.

My scrubber accomplishes more nutrient and algae control with less volume of space taken up, and has zero plumbing. A small section of my sumps refugium section has my floating scrubber and the rest is live rock, sand, and water. My critters live in the sand and rock in my sump which I can fit more of thanks to the smaller scrubber.

Not all scrubbers take up external space, or need plumbing or anything complex. I replaced a basketball size ball of cheato - that wasn’t helping, with something much smaller - that did help. My scrubber floats in the sump, takes up zero cabinet space, has zero plumbing and no chance of spilling or overflowing

 

[Garf]

1. Is removing nutrients one way to control algae?
-"5 Effective Ways to Control Algae in Reef Aquariums"
3rd one is
"Remove Nutrients From Aquarium"
(source: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...ctive-ways-to-control-algae-in-reef-aquariums)

2. Does algae consume nutrients?
-"Algae use natural nutrients available in the sea for their growth" (source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8949465/)

3. Is the algae that consumed the nutrients that you need reduced to remove the algae in the first place easily removed from my DIY algae "refugium-thingy"?
-Absolutely(source: me)

This raises the question of which nutrients are they removing and are you replacing them through feeding or additives or waterchanges? ICP still feels a little Wild West.

 

[littlefoxx]

I thought people just automatically used algae scrapers until I saw this thread! I had freshwater growing up and thats a must have on those tanks. This time around I discovered the mag float scraper… never looked back! It even entertains my maroon male Little Guy! He loves to attack it when Im scraping lol

 

[VintageReefer]

You are talking about a magnetic algae scraper for the glass

We are talking about a piece of filtration equipment called a algae scrubber. Similar name but completely different purpose

I thought people just automatically used algae scrapers until I saw this thread! I had freshwater growing up and thats a must have on those tanks. This time around I discovered the mag float scraper… never looked back! It even entertains my maroon male Little Guy! He loves to attack it when Im scraping lol

 

[littlefoxx]

Oh lol my bad!

You are talking about a magnetic algae scraper for the glass

We are talking about a piece of filtration equipment called a algae scrubber. Similar name but completely different purpose

 

[mizimmer90]

We agree on a lot.

I figured we agree on quite a bit! I think that we agree on nearly everything except the “mechanism” for explaining ATS/refugium success/failures.

I have been doing the discussion you are having for 15 years or so (or however long ATS has been around), and for me most of what you are saying is a given.
I am more interested in practical/useful/actional discussion

I trust your, and others’, experience with the reality of refugiums and ATS. It appears, like most things, that there is mixed success; some who see it working and some who don't. Truthfully, I have no skin in the game for whether they work or not, but as part of this discussion, I very much care that we get the mechanism right!

Most of my professional career as a computational molecular biophysicist has been to develop complex models to explain phenotypic data. You might not think that dealing with the theoretical is actionable, but it's remarkable that nearly every time I've seen a better model generated, obstacles and confusion around a topic seem to disappear. We then change our actions based on our new understanding of the problem. In my work, this has led to the development of novel drug candidates (happy to DM you some of my non-proprietary successes haha)

There is an extreme benefit to merging experience with theory, because the experience tells you what actually happens, and the theory explains how/why and provides models, which can be used to obtain novel results. We need both.

In this instance, my understanding of your model is that ATSs can't affect algae growth in DTs and that conditions that can grow corals can always grow algae. Presumably, this leads you and others to not use ATSs for this purpose. However, if this model is wrong (which I think is the case, as the data does not seem to support it) we can dig into why and potentially develop a better model that allows us to turn knobs to work more efficiently, more generally, and in new contexts. Fixing an incorrect model will lead to actionable outcomes.

Now, I'm not saying I've got all the answers (yet ;) ) but the first step in getting a new model is critically analyzing and identifying issues with the old one. This requires being honest with a model's shortcomings.

A little anecdote: There's a common attitude in academic research, that nobel laureates (and other high profile researchers) suppress new research in their fields because they often have dogmatic views; disagreeing with someone of their status doesn't look favorably in grant reviews. We often see explosions of new research and progress in fields after the established researchers pass away.

Honestly though, I feel we're making some progress here :)

I'll end with: always push for better models!

 

[Heres_doe_]

So many threads I see and I think to myself how an algae scrubber would solve the persons issues. I’ve replied and suggested them and posted my experience and pictures and people seem interested but don’t follow through and get/build one


I guess some people like removing and scrubbing rocks and buying chemicals that solve one problem but create another and then they have to buy and dose chemical products in an endless loop

Funny thing is I’m in the process of doing mine currently tanks almost up and rubbing next couple weeks with Xmas right there it’s a pain to dish out a ton of money for the tank