Alk problems in new system, high consumption?

[ElZesto]

Hey Reef2Reef!

I setup my new system, a 40g breeder AIO (the one on my tank thread) about 1 month ago. It used 50% live rock from my old aquarium (about 3 months old) and 50% live rock and friend of mine gave me (about 2 years old). Obviously the system is still new, but I assume with the established rock in there it shouldn't have as much new tank instability (maybe I'm just totally wrong lol).

The stock list is currently:
2 Springer Damsels
2 Adult clowns
1 Juvenile Kole Tang (she's a foster, don't call the police plz)
1 fire shrimp
~8hermit crabs
3 nassarius snails
~4 Banded Trocus snails

Coral:
One small hammer (not doing well - kind of why im starting this thread)
Gsp
Pulsing xenia
2 green mushrooms (split recently)
Some zoas

Equipment:
40br with custom AIO
Sicce 300 protein skimmer
Filter floss sheets for mechanical filtration
Hanna testers

Parameters (as of last night):
Sal: 1.025
Temp: 78-79
Nitrate: 6.4ppm
Alk: 7.2
Calc: 425ppm
Phos: don't have a tester yet
Mag: don't have a tester, not sure I'll get one as it sounds like the accuracy is meh at best

The Problem:
The alkalinity consumption on this tank seems crazy high. I measure about the same time for day, with the same procedure with a hanna checker and the consumption seems to be ~0.4dkh/day. This is a pretty consistent measurement I've check almost daily for the last week or so, and it goes down that much everyday. My question is what the heck would be consuming that much alk?
I've been dosing Seachem Sodium Bicarbonate Alk Buffer to get it back up. I started with 5ml but that did nothing, and now have worked up to 20ml/day, which raises it pretty consistently about .9dkh. When I started dosing it was all the way down to 4.3dkh and the hammer was really doing terribly, which is why I'm trying to hit close to the max of 1.0dkh raise/day. Since getting it back to a reasonable range of 7+ the hammer looks better, more relaxed, flesh band isn't receding (tho it's not growing yet either but in due time...) and over all like it's going to make it.

It seems like my tank just has crazy high consumption of alk, and I dont understand why. Is this just new tank syndrome? Am I over looking something? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[KrisReef]

New sand?
{"New Sandwiches" - thanks for that, spell checker/AI thingy>}

 

[ElZesto]

New sand?
{"New Sandwiches" - thanks for that, spell checker/AI thingy>}

Yes new sand, 40lbs caribsea live sand. Wasn't able to transfer the stuff from my old tank sadly.

 

[KrisReef]

Yes new sand, 40lbs caribsea live sand. Wasn't able to transfer the stuff from my old tank sadly.

All those tiny pores need to be filled in before the Alk stabilizes.

Same thing can happen when people chemically "cook" their liverock with acid to kill pests.

 

[ElZesto]

Oh interesting. So pretty much the sand is eating it up to build up it's alk/calcium buffer? Does this mean I'll probably see some weird calcium readings once the alk stabilizes?

Fair warning, I'm kinda dumb with chemistry... This hobby is probably the most I've learned about chemistry in my life lol. Thankfully my gf is a lab chemistry scientist lady so I usually just ask her to explain it to me, and sometimes I even grasp the concept if I'm lucky hahaha.

 

[ElZesto]

Al

All those tiny pores need to be filled in before the Alk stabilizes.

Same thing can happen when people chemically "cook" their liverock with acid to kill pests.

Also you mean this sort of thing happens if you did like a peroxide dip on livestock before introduction to the tank?

 

[ElZesto]

Also here the data charted if anyone’s interested. There’s the projected alkalinity based on dosing, and the actual alkalinity.

 

[KrisReef]

Al

Also you mean this sort of thing happens if you did like a peroxide dip on livestock before introduction to the tank?

That's a good @Randy Holmes-Farley question.

Will peroxide dipping (of rock) aka Livestock impact the alk stability present in established rock? ( I think this is the question? Forgive me if I am mistaken.)

 

[ElZesto]

That's a good @Randy Holmes-Farley question.

Will peroxide dipping (of rock) aka Livestock impact the alk stability present in established rock? ( I think this is the question? Forgive me if I am mistaken.)

I was just curious about when you said people “cook” their livestock with acid. What’s the real world example of that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh interesting. So pretty much the sand is eating it up to build up it's alk/calcium buffer? Does this mean I'll probably see some weird calcium readings once the alk stabilizes?

Fair warning, I'm kinda dumb with chemistry... This hobby is probably the most I've learned about chemistry in my life lol. Thankfully my gf is a lab chemistry scientist lady so I usually just ask her to explain it to me, and sometimes I even grasp the concept if I'm lucky hahaha.

It’s not building up a buffer, it’s just precipitating calcium carbonate (if, indeed, the sand is involved).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was just curious about when you said people “cook” their livestock with acid. What’s the real world example of that?

Put rock in acid (such as citric or vinegar or diluted muriatic) to dissolve the outer layer to remove phosphate or copper.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's a good @Randy Holmes-Farley question.

Will peroxide dipping (of rock) aka Livestock impact the alk stability present in established rock? ( I think this is the question? Forgive me if I am mistaken.)

I don’t think so. It kills stuff but does not strip the rock.

 

[ElZesto]

It’s not building up a buffer, it’s just precipitating calcium carbonate (if, indeed, the sand is involved).

Ah, so if I’m understanding correctly then the sodium bicarbonate I’m adding in an attempt to raise alkalinity is actually becoming precipitating to calcium carbonate in the sand, which is why I’m not seeing the raise in alkalinity I’m expecting because the ion are all going into the sand rather than staying suspended/available in the water…?

For practical measures, should I stay the course and just continue to test daily as I dose and once I see the alkalinity consumption lower, and alkalinity stabilize, taper off/stop dosing as necessary? Is there a risk of adding too much of the reef carbonate (sodium bicarbonate) that’s possible even when measuring daily/adding a controlled dose (<=20ml/day based on measurement/target alk)?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, so if I’m understanding correctly then the sodium bicarbonate I’m adding in an attempt to raise alkalinity is actually becoming precipitating to calcium carbonate in the sand, which is why I’m not seeing the raise in alkalinity I’m expecting because the ion are all going into the sand rather than staying suspended/available in the water…?

For practical measures, should I stay the course and just continue to test daily as I dose and once I see the alkalinity consumption lower, and alkalinity stabilize, taper off/stop dosing as necessary? Is there a risk of adding too much of the reef carbonate (sodium bicarbonate) that’s possible even when measuring daily/adding a controlled dose (<=20ml/day based on measurement/target alk)?

That is a possible explanation.

But 0.4 dKH is a fairly low demand and various processes and organisms can also be using it, including snails.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless the sand is clumping/hardening, I’d keep supplementing at needed to maintain 7 dKH.

 

[ElZesto]

That is a possible explanation.

But 0.4 dKH is a fairly low demand and various processes and organisms can also be using it, including snails.

Ahhh very good point. I suppose I wasn’t thinking large enough scope because I was really just focusing on the single hammer. I do have the trocus’ who seem to have spawned more so there’s like idk… probably 40 baby trochus’ crawling around which I’d assume is probably a pretty significant amount of use now that you mention it. Then the coraline propagating off the live rock/snail shells will use it.

I guess in my mind .4dkh felt high since based on how much sodium bicarbonate I was having to dose to maintain, but if that’s the way it then that’s the way it is ‍

Unless the sand is clumping/hardening, I’d keep supplementing at needed to maintain 7 dKH.

Awesome thank you for the help! I really appreciate you pointing out some of the chemistry things at work here. I’m enjoying learning more about it and you gave me more things to research!