Alkalinity Dropping Steadily Despite Dosing

Gmac903

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My alkalinity is steadily dropping suddenly despite dosing. No new coral additions. No other changes other than adding a UV to help combat a algae outbreak. Help me understand. Trident with Trident controlled dosing at 25 ml day alk. Calcium is not dropping despite that dosing channel being off. Mag stable and not supplemented other than water changes.
D94CE4E4-5E6F-4A5D-8FB6-8B1B38DBFE78.png
 

arking_mark

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What is the 25ml adding to the tank in terms of dKH?

I see a 1dKH drop in 5 days. This could just mean you need to supplement an extra 0.2 dKH a day.

I don't recommend unbalanced dosing. A drop of 1dKH is about 7ppm Ca and well within the error range of Trident (+/- 15ppm).
 

ClownSchool

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My alkalinity is steadily dropping suddenly despite dosing. No new coral additions. No other changes other than adding a UV to help combat a algae outbreak. Help me understand. Trident with Trident controlled dosing at 25 ml day alk. Calcium is not dropping despite that dosing channel being off. Mag stable and not supplemented other than water changes.
D94CE4E4-5E6F-4A5D-8FB6-8B1B38DBFE78.png
If you’re having noticeable coralline growth, that’s your most likely culprit. I just read great reviews here on R2R for this All-For-Reef that takes the hassle out of dosing and is priced better that most alternatives.
 
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arking_mark

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If you’re having noticeable coralline growth, that’s your most likely culprit. I just read great reviews here on R2R for this All-For-Reef that takes the hassle out of dosing and is priced better that most alternatives.

Just a note that this product requires biological processes to release the Alk. This means that controlling dosing through Alk measurements becomes a little more difficult as the Alk release can take hours to days.
 

blasterman

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What is the 25ml adding to the tank in terms of dKH?

I see a 1dKH drop in 5 days. This could just mean you need to supplement an extra 0.2 dKH a day.

I don't recommend unbalanced dosing. A drop of 1dKH is about 7ppm Ca and well within the error range of Trident (+/- 15ppm).

And I don't recommend balanced dosing.

The myth of balanced dosing is just another marketing dept creation designed to sell products and hurts this hobby. It's a flat out lie.

Unless your tank is crammed full of rapidly growing SPS you should never couple calcium and alk. Alk is consumed by things that don't consume calcium and more often than not depletes much faster than calcium.

Having no calcium consumption and lots of alk consumption is common. Turn up your alk - your tank is not broken. Some guy on youtube with a 200 gallon full of acropora is not dealing with the same chemistry you are.
 

Nerdist Aquarist

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Definitely verify the reading with another test kit. My Trident has given me way off readings when the clear mixing chamber gets dirty/stained. I make it part of my routine to pop the cover off and clean it out with a cue tip every 2 months when changing the reagents. I've done it so many times, I can do it without disconnecting any of the tubes.
 

arking_mark

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And I don't recommend balanced dosing.

The myth of balanced dosing is just another marketing dept creation designed to sell products and hurts this hobby. It's a flat out lie.

Unless your tank is crammed full of rapidly growing SPS you should never couple calcium and alk. Alk is consumed by things that don't consume calcium and more often than not depletes much faster than calcium.

Having no calcium consumption and lots of alk consumption is common. Turn up your alk - your tank is not broken. Some guy on youtube with a 200 gallon full of acropora is not dealing with the same chemistry you are.

Look, you are welcome to your opinions. However, at this point you are a flat earther in the reefing community.

You allude to "things" that consume Alk but not calcium.

The only major process I'm aware of is the Nitrogen cycle which consumes and then returns the Alk in exactly the amount lost.

Please provide a list (or just one) of biological / non-biological processes that just consume Alk.

Or are you saying that contrary to scientific and biological mechanisms, CaCO3 which makes up most coral structures is not balanced Ca + CO3 or 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2.

Now the 1:1 ratio isn't exact as Mag and other elements also make up a very small percentage of the coral structures (less than 1% to 4%). But generally speaking most reefers should target the 1:1 dosing. Otherwise, at some point they will trigger a precipitation event that will do a number on their stability.

Also realize that MOST Ca testers aren't accurate enough to measure Ca increase/decrease. Apex Trident is +/- 15ppm. So a 2 dKH rise or drop can result in no measurable change in Ca as measured by Apex Trident. Leading to: "WOW! My tank consumed 2 dKH and no Calcium!" I've estimated Hanna Ca Checker to be no more accurate than +/- 20pm or an equivalent 3 dKH. "Wow my tank consumed 3 dKH and no Calcium!" Definitely don't need balanced dosing.
 

homer1475

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Struggled with 1:1 dosing for years myself. It was only when I had a long conversation with Randy did I realize I should be dosing 1:1 and would not see the relatively small drop in calcium in relation to my ALK.

Even if you test kit says not to add calcium, still dose in a 1:1 ratio. Even though my test kit says my CAL is 440, if I'm adding 37ml of ALK, I add 37ml of Cal, and guess what? My ALK is stable, and so is my cal even though according to my test kit I do not need any CAL.

Same goes for MAG. Once you use up a gallon of 2 part, add the gallon of MAG even though your test kit says it 1350. If you add it all like your supposed to, you will not see a rise in MAG like you think you would.

Odd I know, and it took me a long while to wrap my head around it.

EDIT:
There are some 2 part products out there that are not dosed in a 1:1 ratio, but 99% of them are.
 
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homer1475

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And I don't recommend balanced dosing.

The myth of balanced dosing is just another marketing dept creation designed to sell products and hurts this hobby. It's a flat out lie.

Unless your tank is crammed full of rapidly growing SPS you should never couple calcium and alk. Alk is consumed by things that don't consume calcium and more often than not depletes much faster than calcium.

Having no calcium consumption and lots of alk consumption is common. Turn up your alk - your tank is not broken. Some guy on youtube with a 200 gallon full of acropora is not dealing with the same chemistry you are.
I have yet to see a single post by you that goes by normal reefing routines. Everything you suggest in just about every post I have read is the exact opposite of what everyone else is doing.

While I have no problem with you playing scientist with your own tank, maybe you should do a little research before giving out information that could be very detrimental to someone else's tank.

Other then the nitrogen cycle, I also would like to see a list of things that consume ALK and not calcium. Unless your still cycling the tank, I have yet to see where ALK depletes much faster then CAL, and I've been doing this for 20 plus years.

I would love to see you argue this point with @Randy Holmes-Farley. You know an actual chemist.
 

Townes_Van_Camp

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Struggled with 1:1 dosing for years myself. It was only when I had a long conversation with Randy did I realize I should be dosing 1:1 and would not see the relatively small drop in calcium in relation to my ALK.

Even if you test kit says not to add calcium, still dose in a 1:1 ratio. Even though my test kit says my CAL is 440, if I'm adding 37ml of ALK, I add 37ml of Cal, and guess what? My ALK is stable, and so is my cal even though according to my test kit I do not need any CAL.

Same goes for MAG. Once you use up a gallon of 2 part, add the gallon of MAG even though your test kit says it 1350. If you add it all like your supposed to, you will not see a rise in MAG like you think you would.

Odd I know, and it took me a long while to wrap my head around it.

EDIT:
There are some 2 part products out there that are not dosed in a 1:1 ratio, but 99% of them are.
This is the part I struggle with. I get it in a massive tank. You can’t just dump a gallon of mag into a small system. But everyone says to just pour it in as soon as you finish your alk/cal.
 

homer1475

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This is the part I struggle with. I get it in a massive tank. You can’t just dump a gallon of mag into a small system. But everyone says to just pour it in as soon as you finish your alk/cal.


I never got it either(and still don't to some degree), until I started doing it and had a long talk with randy.

For instance, my CAL was always 420 despite dosing 37ml of alk daily. After my talk with randy I started dosing 37ml of CAL also. Guess what? Cal never changed! Still at 420 even though with the additions is should be raising. Just the way 2 part works.

Mag works the same way. My mag is always 1350, but after a gallon of ALK and CAL(I use BRS chems, but baking soda for alk), I dump in a gallon of MAG, and MAG stays at 1350.

Never made sense to me either, and it still doesn't really. I do not have a MASSIVE tank either, just a little 80G cube.
 

Townes_Van_Camp

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I never got it either(and still don't to some degree), until I started doing it and had a long talk with randy.

For instance, my CAL was always 420 despite dosing 37ml of alk daily. After my talk with randy I started dosing 37ml of CAL also. Guess what? Cal never changed! Still at 420 even though with the additions is should be raising. Just the way 2 part works.

Mag works the same way. My mag is always 1350, but after a gallon of ALK and CAL(I use BRS chems, but baking soda for alk), I dump in a gallon of MAG, and MAG stays at 1350.

Never made sense to me either, and it still doesn't really. I do not have a MASSIVE tank either, just a little 80G cube.
There you go again. Just dump it in. I literally cannot do that to a 14 gallon tank. It would wreck my system parameters.

If someone knowledgeable were to say dose them 1:1:1 that would make sense. Because after all that is what you are doing.
 

BiggestE222

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Look, you are welcome to your opinions. However, at this point you are a flat earther in the reefing community.

You allude to "things" that consume Alk but not calcium.

The only major process I'm aware of is the Nitrogen cycle which consumes and then returns the Alk in exactly the amount lost.

Please provide a list (or just one) of biological / non-biological processes that just consume Alk.

Or are you saying that contrary to scientific and biological mechanisms, CaCO3 which makes up most coral structures is not balanced Ca + CO3 or 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2.

Now the 1:1 ratio isn't exact as Mag and other elements also make up a very small percentage of the coral structures (less than 1% to 4%). But generally speaking most reefers should target the 1:1 dosing. Otherwise, at some point they will trigger a precipitation event that will do a number on their stability.

Also realize that MOST Ca testers aren't accurate enough to measure Ca increase/decrease. Apex Trident is +/- 15ppm. So a 2 dKH rise or drop can result in no measurable change in Ca as measured by Apex Trident. Leading to: "WOW! My tank consumed 2 dKH and no Calcium!" I've estimated Hanna Ca Checker to be no more accurate than +/- 20pm or an equivalent 3 dKH. "Wow my tank consumed 3 dKH and no Calcium!" Definitely don't need balanced dosing.
Balanced dosing may be good once your tank is in balance but changes to his chemistry or changes in the animals in the tank can cause unbalanced consumption.
 
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homer1475

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No it won't. Thats what I'm saying. Hard to wrap your head around, I get it. I did it the other way for 15 years, and never had an issue either.

But my tank is much more stable now that I dose in a 1:1 ratio, and just dump the gallon of mag in after I have used a gallon of ALK and CAL.

Maybe in a nano such as yours, I would probably do half gallon on the half gallon usage of ALk and CAL, then the other half after.

Tough to wrap yoiur head around, I get it, no really I do, because for 15 years I did it the other way.
 

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There you go again. Just dump it in. I literally cannot do that to a 14 gallon tank. It would wreck my system parameters.

If someone knowledgeable were to say dose them 1:1:1 that would make sense. Because after all that is what you are doing.
I never got the all I one bottle like tropic
marins aio or polyp labs one I think it would cause lockout or imbalance somewhere down the line having all your eggs in one basket I always dosed my alk then cal then mag doing 3 part doing based on my uptake I would dose esv but I recently changed from esv. To aqua forest abc plus. I find this to be more bang for the buck as it's not only the big three but you get trace minerals probiotics vitamins and aminos
I did soda ash tek in ato back in the day day with sucsess ran esv for a long time now switched to the aquaforest


The thing I cant wrap my head around are the three in ones and how they keep ur reef stable without adding anything else I think its misinormation or a marketing ploy you cant have your eggs in one basket or the numbers will be off and you'll be left confused somewhere down the line imo that's why I've never tried these as I wanna be able to know the how and why and adjust my dosing based on the specific uptake that day

@homer1475 what do you think about all these bottles? Crazy huh
 

homer1475

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I agree. All the "bottles" people put in their tanks these days is crazy.

I prefer the KISS method. Simple 2 part(really 3 parts, never understood why it was called 2 parts when it's actually 3?), weekly WC's, and heavy in, heavy out is what works for me.

I dose no aminos, no "coral food", and no specialized supplements.
 

UnderseaOddities

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There you go again. Just dump it in. I literally cannot do that to a 14 gallon tank. It would wreck my system parameters.

If someone knowledgeable were to say dose them 1:1:1 that would make sense. Because after all that is what you are doing.
@Townes_Van_Camp You have to figure out your systems evaporation and uptake daily I would reccomend testing daily for a week without dosing see where your numbers are at how much water evaporates out daily, your best bet would doing your alk and cal in ato top off a system that small probably no sump probably a aio, then dosing the mag slowly to the tank in ml intervals through out the day maybe buy a 1 site wifi dosing pump once u get I dialed in and figure out your numbers

Idk about the 3 in 1s I've never used then but my gut tells me they're lacking something vital you cant give alk cal and mag all at once unless there is a microbial buffer present the prevent ionization to create new compounds

It should be alk cal then bang mag

Idk about that stuff it seems like it may be feasible for anything under a 40g without a sump but other than that I wouldn't use it personally I guess I dont have the balls
 
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UnderseaOddities

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My alkalinity is steadily dropping suddenly despite dosing. No new coral additions. No other changes other than adding a UV to help combat a algae outbreak. Help me understand. Trident with Trident controlled dosing at 25 ml day alk. Calcium is not dropping despite that dosing channel being off. Mag stable and not supplemented other than water changes.
D94CE4E4-5E6F-4A5D-8FB6-8B1B38DBFE78.png
I guarantee their is a calcerous or turf algae bloom in correlation to the swing in those numbers as stated below their cant be a swing like that unless your lines are gunked up and not dosing or there is something going on on a biological level or the trident is outta whack


@Gmac903 what's ur water quality like outta the tap before being made into rodi

What's ur rodi configured like

Do you have any cyano, wafer or turf

Is there new coraline forming as of the alk swing

Is major evaporation occuring?
 
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