All-For-Reef dosing - Consumption Challenge

[Bume]

Hi All!

I started dosing A4R on 6/10 and have been trying to dial in the parameters. My tank is consuming Alk faster than Calcium and I've jacked up the dosing to almost double the recommended starting dose. My dKH was at 5.7 and went to 6.8 over the course of a couple weeks. My Calcium went from 408 to 448 in the same timeframe. I slowly upped the dose but my dKH peaked at 6.8 as the calcium continued to rise and is currently at 498.

I have bottles of 2-part Seachem Fusion sitting here, bought before I was introduced to A4R by BRS videos. Do you all think it's safe to use the second part of the fusion product (Alkalinity) to raise dKH as an additional dose with the A4R? I'd like to stabilize the calcium at 440 with A4R and then jack up my dKH to 9 with the fusion (second bottle only).

Here's a pic of the tank for coral reference.

Oh, and current parameters:
PH - 7.6-7.9
Ammonia - .003
Salinity - .026
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - .25
Calcium 498
dKH - 6.8

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is certainly fine to add other alk products, if needed, but all for reef doesn't rapidly show on an alk test, so I'd be wary of assuming you need more. In some settings, TM recommends dosing based on calcium, not alk, for that reason.

 

[arking_mark]

It is certainly fine to add other alk products, if needed, but all for reef doesn't rapidly show on an alk test, so I'd be wary of assuming you need more. In some settings, TM recommends dosing based on calcium, not alk, for that reason.

I've looked at dosing AFR based on Ca measurements. However, I didn't find that practical. Most Ca testing (including Hanna) was not very repeatable, meaning that taking two measurements in a row would result in very different numbers. My best guess for Hanna was +/- 20ppm. I know for Trident that Ca precision is =/- 15ppm. Since 7ppm Ca is roughly 1 dKH Alk, this was not something I could use or automate.

My experience with AFR was far from smooth. In the end, what worked for my 400L tank was starting with 1ml dosing per day and ramping up (7ml ~ 0.1 dKH). Over time, I'm now up to 21ml (~0.3 dKH). I use Kalkwasser to the evaporation limit for pH bump, and I've relied on 3-part dosing for automated stability, but have started to switch over to AFR. The tank after a few months of AFR seems to be able to more rapidly consume and "convert" to Alk. Seems to take hours vs days now. I'm hoping to totally switch over to AFR in the next couple of months.

 

[Bume]

I've looked at dosing AFR based on Ca measurements. However, I didn't find that practical. Most Ca testing (including Hanna) was not very repeatable, meaning that taking two measurements in a row would result in very different numbers. My best guess for Hanna was +/- 20ppm. I know for Trident that Ca precision is =/- 15ppm. Since 7ppm Ca is roughly 1 dKH Alk, this was not something I could use or automate.

My experience with AFR was far from smooth. In the end, what worked for my 400L tank was starting with 1ml dosing per day and ramping up (7ml ~ 0.1 dKH). Over time, I'm now up to 21ml (~0.3 dKH). I use Kalkwasser to the evaporation limit for pH bump, and I've relied on 3-part dosing for automated stability, but have started to switch over to AFR. The tank after a few months of AFR seems to be able to more rapidly consume and "convert" to Alk. Seems to take hours vs days now. I'm hoping to totally switch over to AFR in the next couple of months.

Thank-you both for your response!

Mine is about 530L and to eliminate dosing errors I picked up a new Kamoer X1 microdoser... I was using a Jebao 4-head doser and 3 out of 4 heads had stopped working so I didnt have much trust in the last one.

I set it up to dose 26.5ml per day. I had been higher than that so I'm bringing it back down to the recommended starting point. Based on the replies, I'll leave it as-is and watch for the calcium levels to come back down to ~440. I'll watch for any major drop in dKH and use the fusion/alk by hand every couple days to keep dKH around 8-9 until the A4R normalizes.

I'll update the thread in case this helps anyone starting to dose A4R in a larger tank and I appreciate it again, thanks!

 

[dvgyfresh]

I was using AFR in about 50gal of water and the alkalinity had me confused lol I’m going back to two part / essential elements dosing / magnesium. I couldn’t figure out how much AFR to dose I feel it wasn’t raising alkalinity enough but supplying too much trace elements and it’s expensive!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've looked at dosing AFR based on Ca measurements. However, I didn't find that practical. Most Ca testing (including Hanna) was not very repeatable, meaning that taking two measurements in a row would result in very different numbers. My best guess for Hanna was +/- 20ppm. I know for Trident that Ca precision is =/- 15ppm. Since 7ppm Ca is roughly 1 dKH Alk, this was not something I could use or automate.

My experience with AFR was far from smooth. In the end, what worked for my 400L tank was starting with 1ml dosing per day and ramping up (7ml ~ 0.1 dKH). Over time, I'm now up to 21ml (~0.3 dKH). I use Kalkwasser to the evaporation limit for pH bump, and I've relied on 3-part dosing for automated stability, but have started to switch over to AFR. The tank after a few months of AFR seems to be able to more rapidly consume and "convert" to Alk. Seems to take hours vs days now. I'm hoping to totally switch over to AFR in the next couple of months.

I agree, dosing based on calcium is problematic. It's a general problem with all for reef, IMO.

 

[arking_mark]

Thank-you both for your response!

Mine is about 530L and to eliminate dosing errors I picked up a new Kamoer X1 microdoser... I was using a Jebao 4-head doser and 3 out of 4 heads had stopped working so I didnt have much trust in the last one.

I set it up to dose 26.5ml per day. I had been higher than that so I'm bringing it back down to the recommended starting point. Based on the replies, I'll leave it as-is and watch for the calcium levels to come back down to ~440. I'll watch for any major drop in dKH and use the fusion/alk by hand every couple days to keep dKH around 8-9 until the A4R normalizes.

I'll update the thread in case this helps anyone starting to dose A4R in a larger tank and I appreciate it again, thanks!

What really helped me was "weening" off my other dosing instead of replacing. I started with some replacement and found my stability went a little wonky with unexpected results. So I went back to my normal dosing routine to keep Ca/Alk stable and just added a very low dose of AFR. I kept slowly upping AFR until I had to back down my previous dosing to maintain Ca/Alk.

As stated previously, I am now to the point where I'm almost ready to automate AFR and move off of 3-part.

 

[Kato]

FWIW I have great success with AFR in my mixed Reefer 350. Dosing 52ml currently daily. Do note the alk reading is delayed, often by a day or two. Best way IMO is to bring all to desired levels (by separate dosing of alk/cal/mg), then dose enough AFR to keep alk stable. Adjust as required (as consumption goes up or down based on other factors).

It's pretty cheap when you buy the powder. At least easily available in the EU

Here's my tank on AFR

 

[taricha]

The tank after a few months of AFR seems to be able to more rapidly consume and "convert" to Alk. Seems to take hours vs days now. I'm hoping to totally switch over to AFR in the next couple of months.

interesting that it takes so long before the system was able to process the organic quickly.

 

[arking_mark]

interesting that it takes so long before the system was able to process the organic quickly.

I have found AFR to be frustrating for automation because of this. In my old tank, I was doing the Triton method and was able to eventually dial in the tank for a super stable Alk with 4x a day measurement and adjustments. Any adjustment was almost immediately measurable.

With AFR, I have found the Alk impact is delayed and imprecise. Meaning, I dose what should be 0.1 dKH of Alk and can't really measure when that takes place or if that was the increase achieved.

 

[dvgyfresh]

I have found AFR to be frustrating for automation because of this. In my old tank, I was doing the Triton method and was able to eventually dial in the tank for a super stable Alk with 4x a day measurement and adjustments. Any adjustment was almost immediately measurable.

With AFR, I have found the Alk impact is delayed and imprecise. Meaning, I dose what should be 0.1 dKH of Alk and can't really measure when that takes place or if that was the increase achieved.

It’s super confusing , I’m going back to two part / elements dosing lol for one week I was dosing AFR and my alk increased by like 1dkh it was at 7, after another week of dosing it’s at 14 dkh so this stuff isn’t for me

 

[Bume]

Thanks for all the replies! I've been tracking my dKH and wanted to update the thread.

On 6/28, I used 20ml of Fusion 2, then added the same amount on 6/29. It immediately popped the dKH up to 8.3 and I haven't added more since then.

I got a new Kamoer X1 doser on 6/29 as well to eliminate that as an issue and started dosing back at the Tropic Marin recommended starting point. From 6/29-7/4, the dKH dropped .1-.3 per day until it reached 7.6 on 7/4. I then upped the dose using the Tropic Marin recommendations and saw an increase to 8 over 24 hours.

I'm going to give it a week at the current dose and track my parameters then I'll update it again.

I also have to say, my corals have never looked so happy. I'm getting huge extension and colors are starting to improve.

 

[Lokipsl]

I use AFR on my 25g and tested alk for two weeks to get my consumption. I then used the calculator on the tropic marin website to get the dosage amount. Before I started dosing the afr in the system, I got the alk levels to where I wanted them to be and it’s has been steady for the last month. I check Alk 1-2 times a week to make sure things are still good

 

[Bume]

I use AFR on my 25g and tested alk for two weeks to get my consumption. I then used the calculator on the tropic marin website to get the dosage amount. Before I started dosing the afr in the system, I got the alk levels to where I wanted them to be and it’s has been steady for the last month. I check Alk 1-2 times a week to make sure things are still good

That's the root of the issue for me I think. Starting at 5 or 6 dKH and hoping to get an immediate jump up to 8-9 is an unrealistic expectation for AFR. You're spot on, I think the recommendation that I would give in the future, is exactly what you said; dial the parameters in first then switch to AFR. In addition, the time it takes to transition to AFR might take longer, the larger the tank.

The recommended starting dose for my tank is 26.5ml per day and now I'm up to 39.75 using their instructions which is another BIG thing to consider. The Tropic Marin instructions state:

Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous monitoring of alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached.

So that's an initial increase of 50%. If you are considering AFR, are on a budget and if the starting minimum dose doesn't meet your tank's needs then be aware your cost per month goes up pretty fast. For me, the value of dosing only 1 solution is worth a lot more than the money I spend on it, even if I'm dosing 50% or more of what I thought I would at the beginning.

 

[Bume]

Final Update - It looks like everything stabilized after I increased to 39.75. Thanks for all the help and recommendations!

 

[arking_mark]

Final Update - It looks like everything stabilized after I increased to 39.75. Thanks for all the help and recommendations!

Looking good. I think once your tank has adjusted to consuming formate, you should be able to see 0.1 dKH changes in Alk under 6hrs. Meaning small adjustment doses are measurable fairly quickly.